Divide Iraq into three nation-states?

[Charlotteman]

This topic has been mentioned on another thread, so I'll be bold enough to start one.

As mentioned in the "Is Islam an Enemy" thread, Iraq is simply a conglomeration of "tribes" artifically put together by the British. Then Saddam held it all together for decades by brutal force.

I'll be looking forward to hearing everyone's take on this. Personally I see no other solution than to carve up Iraq. Kurdistan, Baghdad, and the southern Shia areas.

[Mith242]

I hate to get this off topic but I have considered starting a topic asking if people think we should divide Iraq. That does seem like a possible solution to some of the current problems. Although there can be long term with problems with that as well. First of all what's to keep the Shia part from simply deciding to become a part of Iran? Giving Iran even more land, oil, and control in that area. Second of all giving the Kurds won't make a lot of friends for the US in the area either. A number of countries in the area have Kurdish populations in the area. Giving the Kurds in Iraq their own country puts more pressure on the other countries in the area to let the Kurdish areas of their country to seperate and join the rest of the possible Kurdish country. This would affect Turkey as well, which has rather close ties to Europe and the US. While the US could gain an ally out a new Kurdish country it could also stand to lose other allies like Turkey. I'm not saying that we shouldn't divide Iraq. It still might be best in many ways but it does potentially lead to other problems as well.

I'll also put my reply over here now that someone decided to make it it's own topic.

[somad]

Isn't a lot of the country intertwined between shias and sunnis?? And... sure the Kurds have the North pretty much all set, but what about the oil money they won't be able to benefit from? It's a tough question for me and I don't know what to think. Sure, the people will say "yes" but will that create more conflicts between the Shias and Sunnis than this will solve? On the other hand, it could become another Yugoslavia (on the flip side of that... even the USA had this problem).

[runawayjim]

Isn't a lot of the country intertwined between shias and sunnis?? And... sure the Kurds have the North pretty much all set, but what about the oil money they won't be able to benefit from? It's a tough question for me and I don't know what to think. Sure, the people will say "yes" but will that create more conflicts between the Shias and Sunnis than this will solve? On the other hand, it could become another Yugoslavia (on the flip side of that... even the USA had this problem).

one could say the USA is heading this way now... red v blue states.

but i think most of the country (at least not the kurdish north) is mixed between the shiites and the sunnis. as for as the kurds go, i'm pretty sure they wanted their own country in the north.

[monsoon]

one could say the USA is heading this way now... red v blue states.

Nah, not even close. If you look at the numbers of people that actually voted you are not talking about a lot of difference between a "blue" and a "red" state. Politics in the USA is all about marketing, like everything else, and until recently the Republicans have been better marketeers than the Democrats. The closest analogy in the USA might be the haves vs the have nots, or rather the decline of the middle class, but that is going to take at least a couple of more generations to play out until it becomes significant.

Meanwhile, the Kurds, the Sunis and the crapes all pretty much hate each other due to atrocities committed on each other during Saddam's and now Bush's rule of the place. Remove the armed troops and the place will decend into chaos. Bush has gotten the United States mired down in a mess that is going to end in a very bloody mess. And it was not like he and this chicken hawk administration of war mongerers were not warned, but they didn't listen. The rewards of a US/UK/Israel cartel that controlled the oil, economics and politics of the middle east was just too great and overrode any common sense on the matter. Too many American's, who didn't take the time to learn about the history of this place, blindly believed the cowboys were going to go in there, raise the American flag, and all would be good. Next step, lets convert the heathens Christians while we are at it. The fact they made them take down the American Flag after Saddam was conquered by our troops speaks well of the hyprocracy of the entire plan. It's been downhill ever since.

Iraq does not have any easy answers. And let us not forget that Turkey will not accept an independent Kurdistan even though it is not currently involved in the civil war there. We elected a failure of a president and a spineless congress that supports him at every turn and now Americans are paying and will continue to pay a heavy price for conquering Iraq.

[Mith242]

one could say the USA is heading this way now... red v blue states.

but i think most of the country (at least not the kurdish north) is mixed between the shiites and the sunnis. as for as the kurds go, i'm pretty sure they wanted their own country in the north.

Yeah the Kurds have wanted their own country for a long time. But as I mentioned it makes a lot of countries nervous in that area because many of them have large Kurdish populations concentrated in parts of their country. Seperating the Kurds in Iraq could potentially lead to more conflict in the future as other Kurds in the other neighboring countries decide they want to join the new Kurdish country. I'm not saying we shouldn't seperate Iraq. I just don't think it's there's going to be an easy solution to this one. As far as the Shias they tend to be around more to the east along the Iran border and also to the south of the country. I believe the Iran-Iraqi war back in the 80's or 90's was basically Iran trying to gain control over the Shia areas of Iraq. It's very possible that the Shia section of Iraq could become a part of Iran or basically be a puppet goverment of Iran. Dividing the country would help things now. But I don't know if it might cause more problems sometime in the future.

[monsoon]

I believe the Iran-Iraqi war back in the 80's or 90's was basically Iran trying to gain control over the Shia areas of Iraq.

Well actually it was Saddam that declared war on Iran and it was over land in Iran that Iraq believed belonged to them. Of course this was a region with a lot of oil.

[Mith242]

Well actually it was Saddam that declared war on Iran and it was over land in Iran that Iraq believed belonged to them. Of course this was a region with a lot of oil.

Ah I see. But I had also gotten the impression that Iran wants that area of southern Iraq so that they can rule over the largest group of Shias. Outside Iraq and Iran pockets of Shias are rather small.

[monsoon]

The Iraq/Iran war started 27 years ago and two Bush family wars against Iraq since the 90s has changed the balance of power there greatly since that time.

The failures of GW Bush's plans for the Middle East has made Iran the new power in the region. The United States removed their biggest enemy and military competitor, Saddam and his military, and the only other challenger to their ambitions, the US military, has been neutered by the ongoing occupation. It could not have turned out better for Iran. The daily carnage that is taking place in Iraq is infurating the millions living in the region. And now that the US supported Israel war against Lebanon has failed just as miserably as the Iraq campaign, Iran has won the hearts and minds of the people of the region. US interests in the area have been set back by decades and Iran is going to take every advantage of the situation. Can you blame them?

[runawayjim]

Yeah the Kurds have wanted their own country for a long time. But as I mentioned it makes a lot of countries nervous in that area because many of them have large Kurdish populations concentrated in parts of their country. Seperating the Kurds in Iraq could potentially lead to more conflict in the future as other Kurds in the other neighboring countries decide they want to join the new Kurdish country. I'm not saying we shouldn't seperate Iraq. I just don't think it's there's going to be an easy solution to this one. As far as the Shias they tend to be around more to the east along the Iran border and also to the south of the country. I believe the Iran-Iraqi war back in the 80's or 90's was basically Iran trying to gain control over the Shia areas of Iraq. It's very possible that the Shia section of Iraq could become a part of Iran or basically be a puppet goverment of Iran. Dividing the country would help things now. But I don't know if it might cause more problems sometime in the future.

if only we could just go in adn bomb the crap out of all the countries that have kurdish populations neighboring the iraqi kurd territory... then we could make one big country for the kurds from parts of the other countries and leave the rest the way they are.

or... get this. we could put all the sunnis and shiites into their own countries as well... and give the jews their own place. we could force people out of their homes so that we have 4 happy countries in the middle east. israel, kurd-land, sunni-dale, and shiite-ville. and they all lived happily ever after...

i think we should just leave the middle east on their own and ignore it and what goes on there. get out hands out of any mess that's there and leave it at that. i'll put $10 down if we do that saying that we don't get anymore terrorist attacks...

[Mith242]

if only we could just go in adn bomb the crap out of all the countries that have kurdish populations neighboring the iraqi kurd territory... then we could make one big country for the kurds from parts of the other countries and leave the rest the way they are.

or... get this. we could put all the sunnis and shiites into their own countries as well... and give the jews their own place. we could force people out of their homes so that we have 4 happy countries in the middle east. israel, kurd-land, sunni-dale, and shiite-ville. and they all lived happily ever after...

i think we should just leave the middle east on their own and ignore it and what goes on there. get out hands out of any mess that's there and leave it at that. i'll put $10 down if we do that saying that we don't get anymore terrorist attacks...

I hate to get off topic on this but while we're at it I would like to see Israel and Palestine united and a non-religious non-ethnic government put in the place of both. I just don't see a Jewish state in that area is ever going to allow peace in that part of the world.

[runawayjim]

I hate to get off topic on this but while we're at it I would like to see Israel and Palestine united and a non-religious non-ethnic government put in the place of both. I just don't see a Jewish state in that area is ever going to allow peace in that part of the world.

this won't ever happen... both groups want all or nothing.

[Charlotteman]

As other posts have mentioned, the US and the West are in a mess over this one. The mess was caused by the ineptitude of the most reckless American foreign policy seen since the Vietnam War.

Bush, Cheney, Rove and Rumsfeld got us into this, and most likely the following administration(s) will have to get us out of it. Just like the Vietnam War drifted from administration to administration......

Because of the lack of "planning for the peace" we have a civil war, and to top it off a more aggressive Iran. As another post mentioned, it's the worst possible outcome~~

Several writers have mentioned Turkey's displeasure with a new Kurdistan. The US is really the only friend Turkey has. Most the peoples in the geographic areas that the Ottoman Empire subjegated continue to distrust Turkey. The EU holds Turkey at an arm's length. Surely the US could calm down a ruffled Turkey. Maybe we could offer them 20 billion dollars to stay quiet about a new Kurdistan. Remember that was the amount Turkey turned down to allow American troops to invade Iraq from the north.

[Mith242]

I don't know. We don't have many allies in the area especially a Muslim country. I'd hate to risk good relations over this. But dividing the country does make some sense and has it's advantages.

[monsoon]

Several writers have mentioned Turkey's displeasure with a new Kurdistan. The US is really the only friend Turkey has. ....

The #1 movie in Turkey, based on their #1 Television show for the last 3 seasons is called Valley of the Wolves - Iraq which begins at the beginning of the invasion of Iraq by the Americans. It details all kinds of war crimes committed by the USA against Arabs and people from Turkey specifically. Whether the events in the movie are true or not is not important, but the fact the people in Turkey believe they are, and the fact that such a movie and TV show are so popular in the first place, is important. The common person there does not consider the United States government a friend and instead identify with the Europeans. (at least the educated ones ones in the cities).

Bush's foriegn policy has infuriated the Turkish people and the government of that country, which is a democracy BTW, will find it almost impossible to side with us now on anything. Further they are seeking EU membership and won't do anything that could put that in jeopardy. It's a mistake to count on them as an ally in this terrible mess.

[Cadeho]

I know the Turks have expressed a country by the name of Kurdistan would not sit well with them. Would the Kurds in their country want to join and start carving up Turkey?

Haha I just realized I said "carving up Turkey"!

[peaceloveunderstanding]

What I think will happen is Bush or his successor will install a US friendly dictator, and we will then leave.

[monsoon]

What I think will happen is Bush or his successor will install a US friendly dictator, and we will then leave.

Then it was all for naught as Saddam was a US friendly dictator. Here he is with Rumsfield shaking hands and making deals.

[peaceloveunderstanding]

Yes, but the US will probably keep a substantial military base there. It wouldn't for nought from the neocon point of view, but for everyone else it will very far removed from what they SAID the original plan was.

[Mith242]

Then it was all for naught as Saddam was a US friendly dictator. Here he is with Rumsfield shaking hands and making deals.

Yeah here's another example where we actually supported someone who eventually started causing us problems later on. Although at the time I can see why it was an attractive idea. We were having problems with Iran and Saddam had set up a non-religious government.

[monsoon]

Yes, but the US will probably keep a substantial military base there. It wouldn't for nought from the neocon point of view, but for everyone else it will very far removed from what they SAID the original plan was.

As long as the US military is there, then it will be a target for guerilla tactics and more will keep dying. This lesson, though now forgotten, was learned in Vietnam. Eventually the American people will become outraged even with the attempts to keep the carnage hidden from public view and the goverment will be forced to pull the troops out. Plus we can't keep spending $2B/day to keep them there.

Yes it will be for naught.

[Charlotteman]

Yeah our current administration is so "pro military" that they disallow any ceremonies for war dead at airports when the bodies arrive.

Is this "conservative" or just damn hateful?

[Snowguy716]

Ummm.. hateful, unfortunately.

Real conservatism is something to be respected. It is the idea that things should never change quickly and if they must change, it should be done slowly and evaluated with the test of time.

Conservatism means conservation, environmental stewardship, fiscal responsibility, personal responsibility, and adhering to traditional moral institutions.

It means not getting excited about politics.

Traditional conservatives champion personal liberty. They believe in the general goodness of the individual and are critical of government as an effective means of protecting the interests of business.

Unfortunately, there are few of these conservatives left. What you have now is a riled up, pissed off, hardcore evangelical, born again Christian that is on the right fringe of economic issues but extremely authoritative in social/moral issues.

I think conservatives like Herbert Hoover and William Taft are turning in their graves over what the Republican party represents today.

[monsoon]

Meanwhile 2000 more marines are being re-activated and sent to Iraq. Not exactly the direction we were told we would be seeing now that we are in our 4th year of this mess.