Katrina Anniversary

[uptownliving]

I already know this is going to sound racist but I will say it anyway. There are poor white people in Alabama and Mississippi who have less than the unfortunate souls in New Orleans. In fact, many families along the gulf aren't even exactly sure where their yards are yet, much less where their houses once stood. This should have never been about race from the start. Too many real issues get blindsided by accusations of racism from all sides. I know what your point was dub, and I don't criticize it, I just believe Spike Lee's documentary should have been about caring for poor people period.

Spike Lee's documentry did follow quite a few white people in New Orleans and the Mississippi coast. They even interviewed the white guy in Mississippi who walked right up VP Cheney and told him "phuk you"

[monsoon]

If we have decided to rebuild New Orleans I can't help to think of the folly of rebuilding levees to Cat 3 levels. Why isn't anyone in authority questioning the lunacy of that plan? Is the desire to get back NO so great that it trumps the common sense that should say you don't build a Cat 3 wall in an area that is subject to Cat 5 storms.

[jednc]

Wow...I don't know where to start. Let's stop:

1. Making this about race...

2. Pretending any of us are really safe because any President is in power (esp. from Mother Nature)

3. Planning to rebuild a city below sea level

4. Blaming George Bush for every bad thing we encounter

5. Hoping big gov't will get even bigger to do what we should have the common sense to do for ourselves

6. Attacking people for different opinions over what has happened, should have happened, hasn't happened, didn't happen fast enough, or happened here rather than there

7. Being too afraid to simply say NO to irrational plans and guilt ridden rhetoric

We don't have to just forget, or move on, or pretend it didn't happen. Let's take a REAL GOOD HARD LOOK at the absolute ignorance of living below sea level while surrounded by water...at not evacuating when told to...and then wanting to blame everyone but ourselves, our ignorant mayor, our incompetent governor, and the countless line of corrupt local and state officials they've been more than content to elect and re-elect for decades.

Take your head out of your...well, you know. Then again, if you did that, you wouldn't be able to blame Bush for the bad odor.

[dubone]

I agree with most of what you said, but I still hold that its not ignorant to live below sea level if we have the engineering and money to keep it from flooding.

People live hundreds of miles away from their families because we have the engineering to fly back to visit within a reasonable time and cost. People live dozens of miles from their work because we have the engineering to get back and forth each day within a reasonable time and cost. People live in the nastily humid tropics because we have engineering to keep our food refridgerated and the air conditioned. People live in the desert, and even in Charlotte because we have the engineering to dam up, retain, and pipe enough fresh water to keep them alive. People live in cities because we have the engineering to pipe and treat our excrement.

Without engineering on so many fronts, we would not be able to live in Charlotte. New Orleans just needs some additional engineering to make it work.

Proposing to rebuild an important american city is valid.

[jednc]

Dubone, I agree with most of what you say there. If I want to be more comfortable on a hot day in Charlotte, I am thankful for the engineer or inventor who came up with air conditioning. Ditto for fast transport and all the other things you mention. The difference is this...I don't get AC if I don't pay for it. I wouldn't live so far from my family if I couldn't afford to pay the airfare home when I want to go. In other words...I pay for all that engineering on my dime.

As long as the American Taxpayer doesn't have to pay for the engineering for others to live below sea level...let them knock themselves out! The rub is this...most of those people need me to pay for their next meal. I'm just not for throwing good money after bad.

And, from anyone else who might read this...I'm not interested in the 100 different ways things I use are subsidized. For the most part, we all have to pay our way in some way or the other. I pay my way.

[e2ksj3]

I agree with most of what you said, but I still hold that its not ignorant to live below sea level if we have the engineering and money to keep it from flooding.

People live hundreds of miles away from their families because we have the engineering to get back to visit within a reasonable time and cost. People live dozens of miles from their work because we have the engineering to get back and forth each day within a reasonable time and cost. People live in the nastily humid tropics because we have engineering to keep our food refridgerated and the air conditioned. People live in the desert, and even in Charlotte because we have the engineering to dam up, retain, and pipe enough fresh water to keep them alive. People live in cities because we have the engineering to pipe and treat our excrement.

Without engineering on so many fronts, we would not be able to live in Charlotte. New Orleans just needs some additional engineering to make it work.

Proposing to rebuild an important american city is valid.

I agree, I mean almost every city in the country is at risk of something, be it natural or man-made, but I don't think that should stop us from living. Should we just abandon the whole west coast because of the risk of earthquakes? Look places that can't "just move somewhere else", like Japan, which is loaded with faults and Holland which is mostly below sea level. If they can build structures to withstand earthquakes and strong flooding, why can't the US? It's like the country's priorities are really out of order.

As for blame, I think there is enough to go around for everyone, but from talking to and reading post from by other people, I don't understand why people keep saying "well, they should have evacuated..". Not everyone had the means to and where were they going to go if they didn't have family elsewhere or money?. Although, I don't think this was about race, class was a factor.

I don't think the majority of the people in this country really have a grasp of how things are outside of their own lives (of being middle and upper class) unless they experienced it themselves, like my parents who grew poor, but now have pretty good jobs. They don't know what it's like to grow up in poverty or living in a war torn country. So we jump into things like wars or just assume stuff, like with the Katrina victims, if that makes sense?

[dubone]

But the federal taxes pay for our roadways for excessive suburbanism. Our taxes pay for a significant percentage of the engineering infrastructure throughout the country.

Also, according to the documentary, Louisiana apparently has an unfair situation where the federal government does not share the royalties on the off-shore natural resources as they do with other states. That means, Louisiana could easily pay its own way if it were independent. Which means, that it is subsidizing the federal taxes that benefit us.

The dutch have very sophisticated systems to allow for much of the country to exist, despite being below sea level. If they were forced into a situation where their potential revenues were spent elsewhere in Europe and powers in Rome or Berlin doled the money out...they might not prioritize the engineering to keep Holland dry. That is what happened in New Orleans.

It didn't help that Louisiana politicians were incompetent and corrupt. But that shouldn't have stopped the Corps of Engineers in creating viable levies.

[uptownliving]

Louisiana apparently has an unfair situation where the federal government does not share the royalties on the off-shore natural resources as they do with other states. That means, Louisiana could easily pay its own way if it were independent. Which means, that it is subsidizing the federal taxes that benefit us.

That is a very important point, one that I think a lot of people either don't know, or forgot. Texas gets royalties from its oil rigs...why can't Louisianna? 30% of our nations oil comes through the Port of New Orleans. Remember after Katrina when the pipeline from New Orleans was temporarily cut off? It created instant panic here in Charlotte and throughout the SouthEast. I remember the Mayor had to get on tv to tell everyone to calm down.

I say we should let Lousianna get their royalties from the oil that flows through their state...then we won't have to bail them out with federal tax dollars. They will be able to bail themselves out.

[NCB]

Since the issue with Oil Royalties came up, I thought I would elaborate at bit...

Down to this day, we puzzle over the befuddling oil picture where non-drilling Florida and New Mexico receive 50% of oil royalties, Texas gets 100%, Alaska and California receive 50%. Louisiana gets ca. 25%, even though it delivers 34% of the energy, half of the seafood consumed by the United States, and the most port tonnage in the country.

Full Article

The figures in the following article are nearly 10 years old now, and all have increased since then, especially the percent of U.S. oil production, which is now nearly 34%, and natural gas production, which is now around 40%.

Eighteen percent of U.S. oil production originates in, is transported through, or is processed in Louisiana coastal wetlands with a value of $6.3 billion a year. Almost 24 percent of U.S. natural gas production originates in or is processed in Louisiana’s coastal wetlands with a value of $10.3 billion a year.

Louisiana’s OCS (outer continental shelf) territory is the most extensively developed and matured OCS territory in the United States. It has produced 88.8 percent of the crude oil and condensate and 83.2 percent of the natural gas extracted from all federal OCS territories from the beginning of oil and gas exploration and development in the U.S. through the end of 1996.

More info

As of December 1998, Louisiana offshore leases totaled 5,363, with more than 27 million acres under lease, 130 active drilling rigs, 4,489 producing oil wells and 3,813 producing gas wells.

Louisiana is extremely vital to this nation moving forward every day. Whether it's nearly everything imaginable coming through the largest bulk cargo port in the world, in the Port of South Louisiana, or it's the huge amount of oil and natural gas that comes from our coast. And one of the main reason's why we are losing our protective wetlands so rapidly, is because of our oil production to this nation. You would think that with everything we give to this nation, and after everything that has happened here, we would at least get a fair share of the money that is made off of what we produce. But that is not the case, and compared to what many other state's get, our oil royalties are practically non-existent. And that, is just not fair. Louisiana senators and representatives have been working on a bill that would give this state about 75% of our oil royalties. Keep in mind that Texas recieves 100% of its oil royalties, and does not produce nearly as much as Louisiana. If that 75% is allocated, we would be able to pay for new Category 5 floodgates, seawalls, and levee's ourselves. Along with being able to handle many more rebuilding and improvement projects around the state without a cent from the feds.

[AuLukey]

As for blame, I think there is enough to go around for everyone, but from talking to and reading post from by other people, I don't understand why people keep saying "well, they should have evacuated..". Not everyone had the means to and where were they going to go if they didn't have family elsewhere or money?. Although, I don't think this was about race, class was a factor.

I'm not attacking any particular class in saying this, but how is it possible not to leave? I've heard, well people couldn't afford to leave their jobs. Bullwhackers. Businesses were closed days before the hurricane hit. Nobody was missing work by leaving. If something is called mandatory, then maybe you should pay attention. Handicapped people that didn't have family to go to... if you're handicapped, you're registered as so and have people to call to come pick you up FOR FREE. My neighbor down the street hasn't owned a car in probably five years. She has a service either bring her food to her or comes to pick her up at no cost to her. Perhaps it is her insurance that pays this for her, I am unsure and I don't feel it is my place to ask why it is free. The sign on the truck says "Handicap Services" from what I remember. For people receiving medical attention when the hurricane hit, that is a different story, but I would have imagined those receiving this help would have been relocated by the medical officials overseeing their care. It's hard for me to believe "I had nowhere to go." There were shelters set-up for hundreds of miles in cities all around the south. Hell, catch a bus to Timbuktu and buy a two dollar tent at Wal-Mart. For those who could not help their situations, I feel strong regret and remorse for them. However, when shown on newscasts, it appeared a lot of middle-aged people and families were on those roofs. If you can climb onto your roof, you can certainly walk to a shelter before the storm hits if you really really can't afford to leave.

[e2ksj3]

I'm not attacking any particular class in saying this, but how is it possible not to leave? I've heard, well people couldn't afford to leave their jobs. Bullwhackers. Businesses were closed days before the hurricane hit. Nobody was missing work by leaving. If something is called mandatory, then maybe you should pay attention. Handicapped people that didn't have family to go to... if you're handicapped, you're registered as so and have people to call to come pick you up FOR FREE. My neighbor down the street hasn't owned a car in probably five years. She has a service either bring her food to her or comes to pick her up at no cost to her. Perhaps it is her insurance that pays this for her, I am unsure and I don't feel it is my place to ask why it is free. The sign on the truck says "Handicap Services" from what I remember. For people receiving medical attention when the hurricane hit, that is a different story, but I would have imagined those receiving this help would have been relocated by the medical officials overseeing their care. It's hard for me to believe "I had nowhere to go." There were shelters set-up for hundreds of miles in cities all around the south. Hell, catch a bus to Timbuktu and buy a two dollar tent at Wal-Mart. For those who could not help their situations, I feel strong regret and remorse for them. However, when shown on newscasts, it appeared a lot of middle-aged people and families were on those roofs. If you can climb onto your roof, you can certainly walk to a shelter before the storm hits if you really really can't afford to leave.

I can understand what you mean by the handicap, I would figure they would be taken care of, but what about people who didn't have their own transportation, who weren't handicap. I think most of them probably had no choice but to go to the Superdome. You're probably right about people on the roofs, but then again, most people probably thought it would be okay to stick around, since the storm was going to miss most of New Orleans, and it did for the most part compared to the Mississippi. Most of the flooding came after the levees crumbled which were suppose to with-stand CAT-3 conditions.

[NCB]

I'm not attacking any particular class in saying this, but how is it possible not to leave?

You've got to understand just how chaotic it was in New Orleans in the few days before Katrina hit. Katrina made landfall on a monday morning, most people in New Oreans, including myself, until saturday morning were not even aware of the fact that the NHC had shifted the track and that Katrina, which was predicted to make landfall in the western portion of the Florida Panhandle the night before, was supposed to hit us head on. People woke up on saturday morning to see a then Category 3 hurricane churning in the Gulf heading directly toward us. At that point, all hell broke lose. You've got the media going crazy with "the one we've always feared," city and metro officials are scrambling to get the Emergancy Operations Center's open and running, finding shelters and getting them open, putting evacuations into order, implementing the Contraflow system on our interstates, and trying to get everyone still in the city safely into shelters like the Superdome in a matter of what ended up being less than 40 hours. It was just complete pandamonium. And when you mix all of this in with the fact that New Orleans is a very poor city, and that you've got thousands of people that literally have no way to leave, it makes the situation even worse.

Some people just didn't want to leave, whether it was because they didn't want to leave their pets, houses, family, or because they plain and simple had no way to get out. Some residents of New Orleans are much poorer than Also remember that no one really thought Katrina was going to be that bad. And the storm itself, really wasn't. The city for the most part was fine directly after Katrina, and then the levee's were breached. If the levee's had never been breached, we wouldn't be talking about anything like this today.

Also, some of the residents that stayed were much poorer, and living in conditions much worse, than you may realize. Elderly people, handicapped people, young people, whatever, there were people living in parts of the city that just had no idea what was really coming, or even how to get picked up to get to the Superdome. You've also got the people who would much rather just deal with things themselves than have to depend on the city to find them and bring them to someplace safe.

[Seabreeze]

And while mentioning the levees. Why fix them? Fixing something is only patching its holes. They will only break again someday. Either replace them completely or rebuild the still flooded areas in a Venice style.

The levees are being rebuilt, not patched. Of course, they are starting with the broken spots first. Previously they were composed of a mound of borrowed dirt(the official term), a 17foot deep steel piling in the middle of the levee, and a concrete wall surrounding the top 6 feet or so of the wall. They now have a new standard. The mounds of borrowed dirt are taller, the metal pilings are driven deeper, and the concrete wall is taller. They are also installing gates that can be closed to regulate the amoutn of water, thus reducing the pressure during storm surges from Lake Pontchartrain. The walls will be strengthened to a point that will withstand a direct hit from a storm such as Hurricane Katrina. Lets just hope they finish them in time.

And for those one here that have all but given up on this city, I would just like to state this. I would definately consider moving to New Orleans after the levees are complete. Anyone who says we should give up on New Orleans obviously hasn't been there.

So many of you cringe everytime a historic building is going to be torn down. Right now there is a thread about saving a cinder block building with a coffee cup on it. I believe I remember the pole being favorable on saving it. Well, in the poorer areas of New Orleans I saw hundreds of buildings of this style. There was chicken-in-a-box, captain sal's seafood (which for some odd reason served chinese food and still had burger king decals on the door ), etc. Then there are the most historic graveyards in the country. The Riverboat Natchez, a riverboat running since the 70's, one of the most photographed churches in the world, tons of historic midrises and highrises, the list goes on and on and on. Giving up will never happen. The city is simply too valuable.

[Miesian Corners]

Maybe I am invisible in posting, but no one (except NCB) as acknowlegded the fact that we NEED New Orleans as a port. I'm not attacking anyone, but please, those of you who think its stupid to rebuild, tell me what we do with that little problem we call the Mississippi? Where does the port for the most important waterway in this country end up being located?

[Seabreeze]

Wow...I don't know where to start. Let's stop:

[1]Making this about race...

[2]Pretending any of us are really safe because any President is in power (esp. from Mother Nature)

[3]Planning to rebuild a city below sea level

[4]Blaming George Bush for every bad thing we encounter

[5]Hoping big gov't will get even bigger to do what we should have the common sense to do for ourselves

[6]Attacking people for different opinions over what has happened, should have happened, hasn't happened, didn't happen fast enough, or happened here rather than there

[7]Being too afraid to simply say NO to irrational plans and guilt ridden rhetoric

[/]We don't have to just forget, or move on, or pretend it didn't happen. Let's take a REAL GOOD HARD LOOK at the absolute ignorance of living below sea level while surrounded by water...at not evacuating when told to...and then wanting to blame everyone but ourselves, our ignorant mayor, our incompetent governor, and the countless line of corrupt local and state officials they've been more than content to elect and re-elect for decades.

Take your head out of your...well, you know. Then again, if you did that, you wouldn't be able to blame Bush for the bad odor.

1.Easy enough. I will just imagine the images of the suffering were not predominatly black.

2. I pay taxes and have been lead to believe an overwhelming portion of them are countries Homeland Security. Therefore, is a little security too much to ask? When I gre up in this country I was lead to believe that living in America meant living in a 1st world nation. Why then, are there images, very recent images, showing us 3rd world conditions in America? Obviously, it is because we are on the verge of becoming one.

3. Already addressed this.

4. Bush has accepted a position with a tremendous amount of responsibility. This means that he is usually held accountable for his actions. The good comes with the bad. Unfortunately with this president, you don't get many good stories.

5. When living in an almost impossible to escape situation of poverty in a country that has 40% of its citizens with no health insurance and 12.5% are below the poverty line, you will have a percentage of minority people in a big metro that don't have the same resources as the majority. People are not going to have transportation, and this means they count on their tax dollars heavily to provide a means of escape. These people didn't have that.

6. I must say, as I am responding to your points, I am reading some of the most bigotted attacks I have ever heard.

7. ...this is vague at best, can't comment.

[/] the state and local officials are being held accountable by a lot of people. And also, I think the magic of engineering being able to buy more land (a valuable commadity in this world) is far from stupid, if executed properly. These people put there faith in a city protected by bad engineering. This also falls in the hands of the local government, state government, and army corps. of engineers. If executed properly, I believe there is no harm in living in an area below sea level.

Oh, and I choose to ignore your immature attack, but thank you for it. It discredits you.

I promise not to get so worked up anymore, a lot of you are being really cold on a very fresh and important topic in my life and the lives of countless other American citizens. A lot of you must still be in shock. It isn't real to a lot of you yet. You sound like you are debating a movie. THIS REALLY HAPPENED.

Not commenting anymore on this topic.

-John

[cinco]

^ thank you, seabreeze. while reading all i found most remarks to be analytical rather than cold, but, for someone personally close to this disaster, i can imagine it's a touchy subject. i thought your last response was particularly well thought out and agrees to my rational side. my irrational side needs a vacation.... maybe starting this NOVEMBER.

[AuLukey]

^ thank you, seabreeze. while reading all i found most remarks to be analytical rather than cold, but, for someone personally close to this disaster, i can imagine it's a touchy subject. i thought your last response was particularly well thought out and agrees to my rational side. my irrational side needs a vacation.... maybe starting this NOVEMBER.

I agree cinco. I know several people that the disaster is much closer to and it's a much more touchy subject for them. Understandably so.

And John, the reason why the images of suffering were predominantly black are the problem. It's not that any one race is suffering more out there than others. It's because the media with the cameras are walking along and say "oh look, suffering black people, this will make a good story." Yes, there is a fair share of coverage on white people as well. But the mere fact that this must be pointed out is not the effect of the disaster, the culture, or anything like that. It is merely a product of the fact that racism makes for a juicier story. If my belief in this fact makes me sound racist, I apologize.

[peaceloveunderstanding]

Maybe I am invisible in posting, but no one (except NCB) as acknowlegded the fact that we NEED New Orleans as a port. I'm not attacking anyone, but please, those of you who think its stupid to rebuild, tell me what we do with that little problem we call the Mississippi? Where does the port for the most important waterway in this country end up being located?

The port is necessary, but the 'culture' and party town facilities don't need to be rebuilt.

Fortify the port and let whoever wants to pay for the rest do so (without the promise of being bailed out when the next storm comes).

[Seabreeze]

thanks for the understanding replies, didn't mean to get so worked up

[uptownliving]

And John, the reason why the images of suffering were predominantly black are the problem. It's not that any one race is suffering more out there than others. It's because the media with the cameras are walking along and say "oh look, suffering black people, this will make a good story." Yes, there is a fair share of coverage on white people as well. But the mere fact that this must be pointed out is not the effect of the disaster, the culture, or anything like that. It is merely a product of the fact that racism makes for a juicier story. If my belief in this fact makes me sound racist, I apologize.

Black people formed the largest percentage of people that were affected adversely by Katrina. Most of the people that died were black. Most of the owners of the homes that were destroyed by Katrina were black. So it makes sense that you would mostly see black people when they roll the video about Katrina.

[voyager12]

Many poorer New Orleans residents were not able to get out before the storm due to lack of their own car or funds to get on a bus and they suffered the worst. Responses to this fact have been " oh BS anyone can get a bus ticket or rent a car to get out, its their fault". Actually many people can't afford to do that. This attitude illustrates the inability of many affluent people to even comprehend what it's like to live paycheck to paycheck. The storm hit at the end of the month. After paying rent and food there is not a lot left over if you are working a fastfood job or in the hospitality industry. Consequently, these people were stuck with no options at all. The media did not just focus on minorities and ignore whites to make the story juicier. They focused on the majority of people who were hurt by the storm and they were poor and black.