Traffic Congestion and Highway Construction

[GeauxCLT]

2 hours ago, Spartan said:

Apparently it will cost $800m to cancel the contract. Glad to know that our all-knowing tea party legislature is using our tax dollars wisely.

Did y'all actually read the article? That 800M is to cancel and build the lanes. Certainly no chump change, but the project itself is budgeted at 650M, so the cancelation penalty is not 800M plus 650M as Spartan quotes to get 1.5B. 

 

Other than the math, I tend to agree with Spartan. The time to fight this was 5 years ago and the opportunity cost of projects lost is just too great. Learn from a mistake and move on. 

[urbanlover568]

47 minutes ago, Spartan said:

The problem is that there is a traffic problem right now, and the only way to have the state fund it, apparently, is to pay the $800m, and then build the $650m project on top of that. Additionally, you're probably looking at 15 or so years before the funding MIGHT become available for this project through the regular process. So, for the low low price of only $1.45 billion you can get a highway widening project that's 15 years late (but is owned by the state) and dozens of other cancelled or delayed transportation projects in the area - including the I-77 widening between uptown and South Carolina.

Just a reminder, there are $261m worth of project in the North Meck/Iredell area that would be used to pay for the cancellation. It's not clear to me where the remaining $539m would come from. The I-77 south project would still be able to advance without a private-sector partner, but it would mean that they would have to go back to the drawing board in terms of working out the financing and likely result in delays.

I'm not what you'd call a 'pro-highways' person, but I am 100% against wasting that much money. The decisions have already been made, and the time to fight this project was 5+ years ago. I say build it and change the strategy going forward. More transit and local streets are needed more than large highways that allow people to live further and further away from the city.

I agree. Maybe they can cut a deal at least to cap the tolls abit lower. That should make the public a bit happier. 

[southslider]

That large total assumes building lanes all the way to Uptown. I'm pretty sure most just want some added lanes around the Lake.  Heck, the HOV lane could even be the second lane to Cornelius, adding just one more lane to Mooresville.

[jednc]

3 hours ago, GeauxCLT said:

Did y'all actually read the article? That 800M is to cancel and build the lanes. Certainly no chump change, but the project itself is budgeted at 650M, so the cancelation penalty is not 800M plus 650M as Spartan quotes to get 1.5B. 

 

Other than the math, I tend to agree with Spartan. The time to fight this was 5 years ago and the opportunity cost of projects lost is just too great. Learn from a mistake and move on. 

As you've pointed out, the entire cost of cancelling and building the lanes MIGHT reach $800M. Other estimates are lower than this for both the penalty and the price to construct new lanes. Many would be happy with just one additional lane with would certainly cost less.

As for learning from the mistake and moving on, I think that's a great idea for MUMPO. Learn that a vote that effects a group of people who are opposed to a plan should reflect the will of those people. This freeway primarily affects people on Lake Norman and their wishes should have been the primary focus. The lesson learned is when you decide to ignore the will of those people primarily affected, you might have that decision reversed for you. Move on by coughing up the money to pay for your mistake.

2 hours ago, mpretori said:

I agree. Maybe they can cut a deal at least to cap the tolls abit lower. That should make the public a bit happier. 

I don't think the people in Lake Norman will be happier with smaller tolls.

[urbanlover568]

5 minutes ago, jednc said:

As you've pointed out, the entire cost of cancelling and building the lanes MIGHT reach $800M. Other estimates are lower than this for both the penalty and the price to construct new lanes. Many would be happy with just one additional lane with would certainly cost less.

As for learning from the mistake and moving on, I think that's a great idea for MUMPO. Learn that a vote that effects a group of people who are opposed to a plan should reflect the will of those people. This freeway primarily affects people on Lake Norman and their wishes should have been the primary focus. The lesson learned is when you decide to ignore the will of those people primarily affected, you might have that decision reversed for you. Move on by coughing up the money to pay for your mistake.

I don't think the people in Lake Norman will be happier with smaller tolls.

Thankyou! 

[cltbwimob]

At first I was for the private I-77 managed lanes project, but I find myself ever-increasingly doubtful of its efficacy.  While I do still think managed lane strategies are useful and would be beneficial to Charlotte, the manner in which this contract with Cintra was bestowed upon the citizens of Mecklenburg just plain stinks.  Furthermore, this thing looks like it has default written all over it. 

Ultimately, I wish NCDOT would cancel the contract, pay the fee, and build the managed lanes themselves.  However, rather than building the two lanes per direction that is currently planned, I wish NCDOT would build one HOT lane each way and partner with CATS to install a true dedicated-ROW BRT system [primarily] in the median of I-77 (i.e. not express buses on managed lanes) traversing between Downtown and Birkdale Village with stations at Exit 23, Hambright, a couple of stations at Northlake, CGS, and CTC among others.  But alas, I know that is not in the cards, so I guess I should keep dreaming.

[Spartan]

17 hours ago, GeauxCLT said:

Did y'all actually read the article? That 800M is to cancel and build the lanes. Certainly no chump change, but the project itself is budgeted at 650M, so the cancelation penalty is not 800M plus 650M as Spartan quotes to get 1.5B. 

 

Other than the math, I tend to agree with Spartan. The time to fight this was 5 years ago and the opportunity cost of projects lost is just too great. Learn from a mistake and move on. 

My math is right assuming the $800m is accurate. The project itself would not change in cost, but we would spend $800m to cancel the contract and then still have to pay $650m to build the project itself in the future (and that's ignoring inflation). You have to combine the two numbers to get the total money spent. Both costs ($650m and $1.5b) get you the same result on the ground, so the question is whether or not the legislature would rather spend $650m on the managed lanes project or $800m + $650m on the managed lanes project along with significant delays to other projects in the pipeline. 

Given how anti-city and anti-Charlotte this legislature is, it wouldn't surprise me if they pass this thing. 

[cltbwimob]

^^^GeauxCLT is actually right; your $1.45 Billon figure is substantially over-estimated.  The $800 million figure is an estimate NCDOT came up with to both cancel the contract ($300mil) and build the lanes themselves ($500mil).

http://m.wxii12.com/news/nc-800m-cost-to-cancel-i77-toll-project-build-new-lanes/40065452

Edited June 16, 2016 by cltbwimob

[SgtCampsalot]

On a different, but semi-related topic: Road funding of all kinds is set for continued shortfalls in the years ahead, highways and otherwise:

Mayor suggests privatizing culs-de-sac to emphasize need for road funding

"It's a terrible idea," he said. "I'm not advocating for these ideas. This is just to show people the seriousness of the problem." 

 

[Spartan]

7 hours ago, cltbwimob said:

^^^GeauxCLT is actually right; your $1.45 Billon figure is substantially over-estimated.  The $800 million figure is an estimate NCDOT came up with to both cancel the contract ($300mil) and build the lanes themselves ($500mil).

http://m.wxii12.com/news/nc-800m-cost-to-cancel-i77-toll-project-build-new-lanes/40065452

Ah ok, clearly I misread that. At anyrate, the impacts of cancelling the contract at this point are still quite high.

[jednc]

46 minutes ago, Spartan said:

Ah ok, clearly I misread that. At anyrate, the impacts of cancelling the contract at this point are still quite high.

Honestly, most people in North Neck who voice an opinion think the cost of doing business with Contra would be much higher.

I'm not even one of the "activists" on the issue on cancelling the contract, but I've been won over by the arguments of the opposition. I don't believe in widening roads indefinitely, but two lanes is woefully inadequate for the region and expansion should have been paid for long ago out of the general road fund.

16 hours ago, cltbwimob said:

At first I was for the private I-77 managed lanes project, but I find myself ever-increasingly doubtful of its efficacy.  While I do still think managed lane strategies are useful and would be beneficial to Charlotte, the manner in which this contract with Cintra was bestowed upon the citizens of Mecklenburg just plain stinks.  Furthermore, this thing looks like it has default written all over it. 

Ultimately, I wish NCDOT would cancel the contract, pay the fee, and build the managed lanes themselves.  However, rather than building the two lanes per direction that is currently planned, I wish NCDOT would build one HOT lane each way and partner with CATS to install a true dedicated-ROW BRT system [primarily] in the median of I-77 (i.e. not express buses on managed lanes) traversing between Downtown and Birkdale Village with stations at Exit 23, Hambright, a couple of stations at Northlake, CGS, and CTC among others.  But alas, I know that is not in the cards, so I guess I should keep dreaming.

Well said. I agree with your dream scenario, except I would like to add one more general purpose lane to what you suggested.

For the record, I do not commute to Charlotte for my job, I just live in the Lake Norman area.

[southslider]

The solution is simple-- convert the contract to a much cheaper widening north of 485, but extend the HOV lane as well to Exits 23, 25 and 28 to serve transit.

Motorists get one more lane to Mooresville. Bus riders get a reliable lane to Huntersville and Cornelius.  And the concessionaire keeps building, just only north of 485.

[kermit]

^ if the legislature decides to throw away $800 million I never, -ever- want to hear any beotching about the cost of transit again. ($800 million would pay for the state contribution to $3.2 billion worth of transit (asuming a very democratic 25% state contribution)) this would pay for the entire 2030 plan).

 

 

 

[southslider]

^The $800 million figure is bogus. The state won't widen 77 south of 485 themselves, so that unnecessary widening cost shouldn't be included. But hey, it makes the opportunity cost seem all the more expensive. 

But here are real opportunity costs, if the project isn't redesigned : 1) no access to 85 for Uptown commuters, 2) no access to 485 for University / Concord commuters, 3) no access to Stumptown Rd for CATS buses, 4) blocked HOT access in Huntersville for CATS buses and motorists, 5) blocked HOT access from Brookshire in the evening rush hour, 6) degraded 77 access from 277, and coming soon, 7) full closure of the HOV into Uptown for years of construction. 

[jednc]

On 6/16/2016 at 8:19 PM, kermit said:

^ if the legislature decides to throw away $800 million I never, -ever- want to hear any beotching about the cost of transit again. ($800 million would pay for the state contribution to $3.2 billion worth of transit (asuming a very democratic 25% state contribution)) this would pay for the entire 2030 plan).

 

 

 

Would be awesome and the first money should go for the Red Line regardless of what it takes to make it happen.

[rancenc]

For those in live in the Mooresville area, the proposed widening of Highway 150 between Mooresville and Lincolnton seems to be progressing!

http://www.mooresvilletribune.com/news/ncdot-hearings-set-for-nc-widening/article_3ff1f630-5b55-11e6-96f8-27200ad3e9a0.html

Edited August 7, 2016 by rancenc

[lit]

Brazil recently built a monorail for $50M/mile. Trade Street to exit 23 is 13 miles so $650M. Put a station at LaSalle/Atando, another one at one of those abandoned truck stops at Sunset, Northlake, then full speed to exit23 park-n-ride!

[kermit]

On June 16, 2016 at 8:37 PM, SgtCampsalot said:

On a different, but semi-related topic: Road funding of all kinds is set for continued shortfalls in the years ahead, highways and otherwise:

Mayor suggests privatizing culs-de-sac to emphasize need for road funding

"It's a terrible idea," he said. "I'm not advocating for these ideas. This is just to show people the seriousness of the problem." 

 

Here is a satisfying solution to the problem mentioned above. The city of Omaha has been unpaving suburban neighborhood streets due to the lack of resources to maintain them. Long ago agreements between the city, developers and homeowners (that residents were responsible for maintaining the roads) allow this to happen. I love the image of McMansions only accessible by dirt road.

http://www.denverpost.com/2016/08/16/city-of-omaha-bulldozes-pothole-filled-street-after-complaints-residents-still-complain/

Edited August 19, 2016 by kermit

[Third Strike]

The NCDOT has released a list of projects, ranked at the regional level, for possible future funding. Here are some of the major projects from the central portion of the state.

Projects for central North Carolina include:

• Widening N.C. 50 (Creedmoor Road) from I-540 to N.C. 98 in Wake County, which will help reduce congestion along a major corridor to the Raleigh economic center from the north.
• Improving N.C. 68 (Eastchester Drive) from Hickswood Road to Gallimore Dairy Road in Guilford County, which will enhance safety and mobility along an important regional corridor between the greater High Point area and the Piedmont Triad International Airport.
• Constructing another segment of the western section of the Winston-Salem Northern Beltway from N.C. 67 to south of U.S.  52 in Forsyth County, which will improve regional mobility.
• Widening N.C. 24 from N.C. 73 to the Troy Bypass in Montgomery County, completing a four-lane N.C. 24/27 connection between Charlotte and I-73/74.
• Widening N.C. 73 from U.S. 29 in Cabarrus County to N.C. 115 in Mecklenburg County and from Northcross Drive in Mecklenburg County to N.C. 16 in Lincoln County, providing improved access within the Lake Norman/Cabarrus County region.

The bolded are projects in the Charlotte region. Here's a complete list of regional projects for the state, and how they rank (Charlotte projects are on pages 14 to 16):

Regional Impact Projects Selected in P4.0 - Draft

[cowboy_wilhelm]

4 hours ago, Third Strike said:

The NCDOT has released a list of projects, ranked at the regional level, for possible future funding. Here are some of the major projects from the central portion of the state.

And here's the web map to go along with it.

NCDOT STI Results Map - P4.0

[Norm2]

2 hours ago, cowboy_wilhelm said:

And here's the web map to go along with it.

NCDOT STI Results Map - P4.0

What does STI stand for in that link? STI Results sounds kinda.....yea LOL

[cowboy_wilhelm]

16 hours ago, norm21499 said:

What does STI stand for in that link? STI Results sounds kinda.....yea LOL

Oh boy... I guess no one at the state has realized that yet. It's the abbreviation for Strategic Transportation Investments. Took me a minute too, since I still say/think STD instead of STI.

[Norm2]

7 hours ago, cowboy_wilhelm said:

Oh boy... I guess no one at the state has realized that yet. It's the abbreviation for Strategic Transportation Investments. Took me a minute too, since I still say/think STD instead of STI.

Strategic Transportation Investments.....sounds better than what I was thinking lol

[Skyybutter]

On 8/25/2016 at 8:15 PM, norm21499 said:

What does STI stand for in that link? STI Results sounds kinda.....yea LOL

Great resource. Personally I say go ahead and widen 77 from Statesville to Charlotte with 5 lanes in each direction. It's either now or later. Go ahead and take care of it. 

The same goes for 485. 5 lanes each way inner and outer. Enough of pretending the growth isn;t going to happen. IT IS and we have to plan out 30 years. 

[Matthew.Brendan]

 As long as there is corresponding rail out to Monroe, Rock Hill, Gastonia, and Mooresville at the same time. Sure. I have no issue with that.