Traffic Congestion and Highway Construction

[KJHburg]

This story appeared in todays Wall St Journal about congestion pricing. These toll express lanes are a lot more widespread than I thought including Salt Lake City, Seattle etc. 

http://www.cetusnews.com/news/Why-Not-All-Tolls-Rise-to-Nearly-%2450.S100ojFpf.html

Wow in a side article in the print edition it mentions on the Mo-Pac in Austin the highest toll reached $10.13 for the 11 mile stretch and on I-66 in Northern VA inside the Beltway a 9 mile stretch peaked at $47.50 and at least 640 trips cost $40 or more.  Holy cow!  If I return to the Fairfax County of my youth I will take Metro into the city from Vienna. 

Edited May 5, 2018 by KJHburg

[Popsickle]

1 hour ago, KJHburg said:

This story appeared in todays Wall St Journal about congestion pricing. These toll express lanes are a lot more widespread than I thought including Salt Lake City, Seattle etc. 

http://www.cetusnews.com/news/Why-Not-All-Tolls-Rise-to-Nearly-%2450.S100ojFpf.html

Wow in a side article in the print edition it mentions on the Mo-Pac in Austin the highest toll reached $10.13 for the 11 mile stretch and on I-66 in Northern VA inside the Beltway a 9 mile stretch peaked at $47.50 and at least 640 trips cost $40 or more.  Holy cow!  If I return to the Fairfax County of my youth I will take Metro into the city from Vienna. 

Additionally, on 66 inside the beltway during rush hour, 6-10 and 3-7, I believe, single occupancy vehciles are not allowed. So you can't even ride by yourself!

Edited May 5, 2018 by Popsickle

[The ATX]

2 hours ago, KJHburg said:

...Wow in a side article in the print edition it mentions on the Mo-Pac in Austin the highest toll reached $10.13 for the 11 mile stretch...

The MoPac Expressway is worse than I-35 at rush hour IMO.  That could be $10 well spent if you want to get home in time to eat dinner with the family.  But the irony is that many commuters taking MoPac live in the area served by the commuter rail line.  That's ~$20 both ways with a car Vs. ~$5 on a train.

[KJHburg]

1 hour ago, The ATX said:

The MoPac Expressway is worse than I-35 at rush hour IMO.  That could be $10 well spent if you want to get home in time to eat dinner with the family.  But the irony is that many commuters taking MoPac live in the area served by the commuter rail line.  That's ~$20 both ways with a car Vs. ~$5 on a train.

A couple of years ago I got caught on the MoPac going southbound and it was bumper to bumper in both directions. 

I just hope we don't get a $30-40 toll on these new I-77 express lanes. 

[Popsickle]

^^^I'm not sure how they are going to do the pricing for 77, but the DC area tolls prices are demand based...

[Matthew.Brendan]

As is ATL which is usually like $1 whenever I drive through. I’d love to see real world examples of a $30-40 toll ?

[Spartan]

There won't be a $30-40 toll. The market will eventually find a natural equilibrium. The operator wants drivers to use it, so they will be motivated to find the sweet spot that makes the lanes attractive without being too expensive. They use these things in LA and other large metros besides Atlanta, and they work fine. People are just freaking out because they don't understand it.

[KJHburg]

Today at I=77 express lanes and Brookshire freeway interchange.   These are the ramps to southbound 77 from Brookshire westbound. 

[go_vertical]

I'm pretty sure I read something early on before construction started that the operator of the tolls is required to price the lanes in a manner that ensures the free lanes maintain a speed of at least 45 mph. For the life of me I can't remember where I read that or how accurate that is.

[cltbwimob]

37 minutes ago, go_vertical said:

I'm pretty sure I read something early on before construction started that the operator of the tolls is required to price the lanes in a manner that ensures the free lanes maintain a speed of at least 45 mph. For the life of me I can't remember where I read that or how accurate that is.

The pricing has to be set such that the toll lanes maintain a speed of at least 45 mph.  If the pricing was set such that the free lanes maintained 45 mph, I would bet that Cintra would be paying people to use their toll lanes.  At a minimum it would ensure that the project goes bankrupt.

[go_vertical]

Ah, ok. I knew I had at least one of the details wrong there. Unfortunately it was the biggest one.

[dubone]

Yeah, the toll lanes get to be 'managed' with supply/demand market pricing so that they have the optimal usage, much like how other resources are priced fairly at a level that balances the demand to match the capacity for those resources.  

The socialist free lanes get used poorly and grind to a halt from too many cars, who then complain about the traffic, but fail to realize they caused it.  

But in the efficient market-priced lanes, designed to keep a flow of 45mph, the number of vehicles served is far far more, because a lane that keeps moving handles vastly more cars than a stop-and-go lane.  

[Nick2]

On 5/6/2018 at 10:59 AM, Spartan said:

There won't be a $30-40 toll. The market will eventually find a natural equilibrium. The operator wants drivers to use it, so they will be motivated to find the sweet spot that makes the lanes attractive without being too expensive. They use these things in LA and other large metros besides Atlanta, and they work fine. People are just freaking out because they don't understand it.

Gotta love sensible economics

[elrodvt]

23 minutes ago, Nick2 said:

Gotta love sensible economics

Unfortunately they cannot be explained in 2 sentences which involve only 2 syllable words.

[jednc]

On 5/5/2018 at 4:28 PM, KJHburg said:

This story appeared in todays Wall St Journal about congestion pricing. These toll express lanes are a lot more widespread than I thought including Salt Lake City, Seattle etc. 

http://www.cetusnews.com/news/Why-Not-All-Tolls-Rise-to-Nearly-%2450.S100ojFpf.html

Wow in a side article in the print edition it mentions on the Mo-Pac in Austin the highest toll reached $10.13 for the 11 mile stretch and on I-66 in Northern VA inside the Beltway a 9 mile stretch peaked at $47.50 and at least 640 trips cost $40 or more.  Holy cow!  If I return to the Fairfax County of my youth I will take Metro into the city from Vienna. 

Except there is no train from Lake Norman...

5 minutes ago, elrodvt said:

Unfortunately they cannot be explained in 2 sentences which involve only 2 syllable words.

I think shaft is a one syllable word.

[elrodvt]

54 minutes ago, jednc said:

Except there is no train from Lake Norman...

I think shaft is a one syllable word.

And apparently the only part you understood so all is well.  

I saw the same thing happen in Denver. Not everyone is a winner day one and plans change making people feel they were "lied" to. Nothing to do about it. I doubt a single cities transit has been built out without the same drama. 

[Spartan]

If the toll ever gets to a price you consider ridiculous, then the odds are good that there's a larger situation blocking traffic (bad weather, multi-car pile up, etc.). 

[stiluvclt]

Did you really say "the socialist free lanes"?

[tozmervo]

10 minutes ago, stiluvclt said:

Did you really say "the socialist free lanes"?

The US Interstate Highway System is probably the single largest socialist program in US history, not that any politician would be caught dead using that word. 

[Nick2]

Socialism is a school of thought, not the direct enemy of capitalism or America like politicians try to make it out to be.

Forced attendance at state owned schools. Food stamps and free housing. Roads. Property taxes. These would all be considered socialist ideas if they were inteoduced today. Let's look at the topic of discussion and its merits rather than the label someone gave it.

Sorry for bringing this more off topic but it's a pet peeve of mine when people talk about socialism or even communism as though they're evil.

[KJHburg]

"Where we are going Marty we don't need roads"   Dallas firm designs flying taxi skyports.   Maybe there will be one at the new train station or Legacy. 

 https://www.bizjournals.com/dallas/news/2018/05/09/dallas-architecture-firm-unveils-skyports-for-uber.html?ana=e_ae_set1&s=article_du&ed=2018-05-09&u=oAaDx%2B74FoP4qOJ%2By4AU6dhJPpc&t=1525896873&j=81494391

[Dale]

"Sorry for bringing this more off topic but it's a pet peeve of mine when people talk about socialism or even communism as though they're evil. "

They are.

[Windsurfer]

5 minutes ago, Dale said:

"Sorry for bringing this more off topic but it's a pet peeve of mine when people talk about socialism or even communism as though they're evil. "

They are.

I like to tell my friends I'm a "capitalist-communist".   I try to run my company (about 50 ) as though we're communistic, but use capital to make it work.  Not everything is black and white.

[Dale]

32 minutes ago, Windsurfer said:

I like to tell my friends I'm a "capitalist-communist".   I try to run my company (about 50 ) as though we're communistic, but use capital to make it work.  Not everything is black and white.

Well, if you own a company, I grant that you should be able to make your own rules.

[Nick2]

Have you ever read the communist manifesto? Communism is about making sure everyone is able to live a good life. The reason it came about was Marx's disgust with the full swing of the industrial revolution in London. Pennies a day, zero safety measures, child labor and all that wonderful stuff that occurs with unbridled capitalism. I'm 100% against communism, don't get me wrong. It doesn't work. Human nature is to get what you can for yourself rather than the collective which is why regulated capitalism works better for society.

Just because the individuals who have implemented it were evil or severely misguided (Stalin, Lenin, Mao) doesn't mean the concept is inherently evil.

Back on topic, does anyone think it's possible to have another super highway or interstate built in CLT or is it too late in the city's development to be able to add that?