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Traffic Congestion and Highway Construction


monsoon

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Adding that lane, as opposed to adding a lane *east* of 77, was just plain stupid.

What was stupid was developing a rural area that was "supposed" to stay rural into a massive, sprawling, unintegrated residential zone. When 485 was designed, the south stretch was modeled to capacity. Now that big-time developers have "somehow managed" to skirt that design and create the monstrosity-that-is-Ballantyne, the rest of the city is supposed to stop and wait for the roads in that area to catch up? I don't think so.

Anyone who moves to that part of town deserves every soul-sapping minute of traffic jam they have to suffer through.

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What was stupid was developing a rural area that was "supposed" to stay rural into a massive, sprawling, unintegrated residential zone. When 485 was designed, the south stretch was modeled to capacity. Now that big-time developers have "somehow managed" to skirt that design and create the monstrosity-that-is-Ballantyne, the rest of the city is supposed to stop and wait for the roads in that area to catch up? I don't think so.

Anyone who moves to that part of town deserves every soul-sapping minute of traffic jam they have to suffer through.

I think that comment is rather discusting, actually. Ballantyne is the richest area, aside from downtown. It's supply and demand, and there are a lot of rich ppl that live here in Charlotte that don't want to be downtown. I don't think its justifyable to blame it on the businesses and ppl. If that was said, than you could say that about all of Charlotte. Charlotte is a developmental paradise, Ballantyne is the same....

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I think that comment is rather discusting, actually. Ballantyne is the richest area, aside from downtown. It's supply and demand, and there are a lot of rich ppl that live here in Charlotte that don't want to be downtown. I don't think its justifyable to blame it on the businesses and ppl. If that was said, than you could say that about all of Charlotte. Charlotte is a developmental paradise, Ballantyne is the same....

Developers would build houses out of the crushed bones of orphans if there was enough demand for it. It's a shame that the city's decision-makers have no conscience about this kind of thing, but that doesn't excuse individual homeowners from trying to reap the profits of dirty political deals.

There is a moral decision attached to every economic decision you make.

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I went to Raleigh yesterday. In Salisbury 85 is, at places, 10 lanes wide. In the heart of Charlotte, there are places where 77 is 6 lanes. 485 is, for the most part, 4 lanes.

Someone, somewhere is sick. :)

The part of I-85 that opened in 2005 up to Concord Mills is 8-10 lanes wide as well (now 8 lanes through all of Meck Co), and while Salisbury has no other projects to speak of, Charlotte still gets lots of state money for other projects... Independence, I-77 HOV, South LRT, and FYI I-485 will probably end up being the only loop freeway in NC to be built without any tolls.

^The blame lies squarely with the Charlotte city council and mayor which approved all that development when they told the state, who designed the road, they would not.

Yep, and you can throw in the Meck County Commisioners too. I wish I could find an article or other record going back that far that showed the land use plans for S/SE Charlotte... I seem to recall the notion that the city had agreed to stop or limit development at NC 51. Back then, the kind of growth seen in Union Co was a pipe dream.

The 485 project is tricky because Rep Drew Saunders wants the last I-485 segment from I-77 to I-85 to be built before the widening in S. Charlotte, and the widening project only allows for 6 lanes to be built by legislative mandate (loop funds were previously only allowed for new construction--not widening existing roads). If 8 lanes is req'd, more money must be found.

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By law (that little thing that people in this thread pretend doesn't exist :) ), the tolls can't be put up on existing roads, and cannot be on new roads unless there is a viable alternative. I think you could do as Metro said, and build the northern part as toll, as 485 is by nature redundant. But I'm not sure how it would work as a toll. I'd support it, though. I think that tolls are good ways to limit the amount of congestion on urban freeways, especially loops.

NC, however, has a very limited toll system, so it will be fairly difficult to get in place, especially on a stretch that was imminent for building as a free road.

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Due to environmental legislation at the federal and state level. Adding a lane in each direction is a little bit more complicated than laying down pavement. There is this thing called the National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA for short) that requires a study of the impact of the improvement to the natural and human environment. Due to this policy.....NCDOT is currently in the planning/design process for adding additional laneage to I-485 from I-77 to US 521. A citizen's informational workshop was recently held...if not soon to be held for the proposed improvements.

Thanks for the clarification on that point.

I guess the one thing I still don't understand fully is the environmental studies on this portion of road. I thought that was done where a road doesn't exist yet or was in the planning stages.

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Traffic is GOOD. Get over the traffic Jam. It means the city is exploding financially faster than it can keep up.

Go to the North east and check out the poverty and desolation - at 5:00 PM. I LOVE how Charlotte is so attractive that more families are moving in each day than the city can bear.

:)

Edited by Dennis_Schwartz
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Traffic is GOOD. Get over the traffic Jam. It means the city is exploding financially faster than it can keep up.

Go to the North east and check out the poverty and desolation - at 5:00 PM. I LOVE how Charlotte is so attractive that more families are moving in each day than the city can bear.

:)

Yes, it's great and all... but the city has to keep up. Roads are outdated to figures from 5 years ago and the only alternative transportation is CATs buses, which are overcrowded as is. I do love the population growth too! The city has to meet the demand though.

As far as the toll concept... I wouldn't think it would be the best idea on a looped road. Something on 85 or 77 would be different. On a loop, you would have to put tolls on each exit, that would be a major project and really, 485 doesn't give shortcuts from any direction to getting downtown really. People would just take Providence from the east, n tryon from the north, etc, which are more direct roads anyhow. I still think an HOV lane is best, clears up congestion for those that are most concerned, and contributes an increased revenue for CATs, and promotes the south end train...

Edited by Andyc545
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I don't think the city should 'keep up' in the way that most people would. I think the freeways should be capped at 4 lanes per direction plus one HOV or auxiliary lane. If keeping up means 6 then 8 then 10 then 12 then 14 then 16 then 18 then 20 then 22 then 24 then 26 then 28 then 30 then 32 then 34 then 36 then 38 then 40 then 42 then 44 then 46 then 48 then 50 then 52 then 54 then 56 then 58 then 60 then 62 then 64 then 66 then 68 then 70 then 72 then 74 then 76 then 78 then 80 then 82 then 84 then 86 then 88 then 90 then 92 then 94 then 96 then 98 then we all live on freeways.

It is reasonable to make a proper urban interstate with the standard 4 for larger cities, but beyond 4, you simply are shifting traffic jams, and reducing the overall efficiency of a freeway compared to regular streets.

Seriously, just assume that any freeway that does not have orange barrels on it is going to be exactly like it is for a decade or two when you move into someplace. I feel like EVERYONE moves to these suburban locations and then seems to assume that the government will instantly provide them with all the roadway capacity they need. It isn't going to happen. When most of the population is choosing lives that are inefficient to serve governmentally, the chances are you won't be able to be served very well.

What happened to living less than ten minutes away from your workplace, planning to drive or walk or bus on city streets? What happened to living in areas that already have their infrastructure? If you want a country home, then expect to not have urban infrastructure. Don't get mad when the city tries to build infrastructure to help urbanize and create dense and more efficient development patterns.

Move downtown or within a few miles of it, and even if there is a lot of traffic, it still won't take you that long to be home, and to get to places (especially now that they are building big box retail in Midtown). I can honestly say that I haven't sat in a traffic jam in a very very very long time. All I had to do was avoid the suburbs. Now, I use mostly infrastructure that was put in place 100 years ago.

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I don't think the city should 'keep up' in the way that most people would. I think the freeways should be capped at 4 lanes per direction plus one HOV or auxiliary lane.

It's nearly a practical limit too. Not only do more lanes add up quickly as the capacity is added, but there is a drop-off in the effective capacity added with each new lane. For example, an 8-lane freeway isn't twice the capacity of a 4-lane freeway... the law of diminishing returns. I-85 thru Meck is probably the maximum type of cross section that you'll ever see on any freeway, except perhaps an extra HOV or HOT lane here and there, which I can almost guarantee will be in Charlotte's future eventually. Once a corridor is built out, all you can do is manage the capacity you do have in the most effective way, and that ususally means buses, carpooling, truck-only lanes, or congestion pricing, or some combination of those policies.

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http://www.charmeck.org/NR/rdonlyres/ekbqv...gsn72veh/01.pdf

What I find to be huge news if it pans out is that Charlotte City Council will be reviewing Monday a list of projects to include in the 2009-2015 7 year construction plan. Instead of listing each minute section of Independence, they actually have it listed as a single project from Sharon Amity to 485. As it is ranked 1st, 2nd, and 6th, it seems to me that finishing the widening of Independence is actually on the horizon now. Once in the construction plan, it can be sped up with Garvee bonds. Or even just waiting until 2015 isn't terrible.

What is interesting about it is that once it is on the 7 year construction plan, and stays there for a few years, I bet we can go back to discussing the transit options in that corridor for the 2035 plan (assuming the voters don't reneg).

Correct me if I'm wrong JoJo, but isn't that saying this is now just a few votes away from being in the 7 year plan?

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I can honestly say that I haven't sat in a traffic jam in a very very very long time. All I had to do was avoid the suburbs. Now, I use mostly infrastructure that was put in place 100 years ago.

I can honestly say that one of the best things I ever did for myself mentally was move close in to the city. My daily commute hasn't involved traffic jams for almost two years now. On the occasion that I go to the 'burbs and end up in stopped traffic, it's really frustrating because I'm so used to being able to move quickly around in the urban grid. But the rest of the time, traffic simply is not a concern on my radar anymore. I wish more people would understand how much a suburban commute can chip away at your personal time, freedom of movement and overall sense of well-being. But if it's what you're used to, I guess it begins to seem like a necessary and unavoidable evil. Now that I've experienced a couple of years without it, though, I don't think I can ever really go back to accepting traffic as a "given" of my daily routine.

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A prototype of the new uptown Wayfinding Signs has been installed outside of the Goverment Center near the 4th and Davidson intersection. The city is soliciting feedback on the sign before they go to final design. So check it out and let them know what you think.

Please send your feedback to [email protected] or fill out one of the comment cards in the Govt Center lobby.

I checked it out earlier today and it looks aesthically pleasing, but there are a few things I would like to see changed.

I was all over Uptown Charlotte on Saturday and the one thing that I found noticably missing was a wayfinding signage system. So, I did a few searches in UP and found a couple of mentions of it in this thread. It's good to see that Charlotte is planning to implement such a system for Joe Outoftowners such as me. Someone said that the wayfinding system shouldn't have anything to do with the city's identity and branding; however, I would point out that, for smaller cities, the wayfinding system and the city's identity are very closely meshed together. Look at Greenville, SC, for example. However, for Charlotte, it's nice to see the four distinct identities being used...even though I'd think it'd be better to tie them into the various wards to help preserve their identities rather than dividing the city into logical quadrants purely for the sake of doing so.

Is there any timeframe for when the final approvals and installations will begin? Are the designs shown at HERE still the ones that Charlotte is going to go with?

I'd love to come back over and walk around once they're installed. Also, if anybody has any photos, consider adding them to this flickr pool.

Edited by RestedTraveler
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The plan is to have the first round of wayfinding signs in place by this November. They did change the design so that all the signs will have the Charlotte Crown Logo on top instead of random leaves.

I could not agree more that these signs are needed. EVERY single time, literally every time, I go walking downtown someone stops me and asks for directions.

I was in Greenville yesterday and it was my first time downtown in about 6 years. Even though I pretty much knew where I was going it was nice to have reassurance from the signs every block. Ya'll have a great downtown there, I can only hope that one day we will have something that matches your Main St for retail.

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My favorite directions question is when a group of people in a car asked where to get to Verizon Ampitheater... from Brevard Street. :) I guess they just assumed it was downtown.

I actually like getting asked for directions, but I know that it has to represent a point of frustration to have gotten to that point.

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When it is illegal to spend money somewhere, then it is illegal. You may not care, but it is still something that must be followed. Just because you want the money spent on one section of 485 doesn't mean it is legal to spend it there. Many of those laws are unfair, or counter-intuitive, but until the law changes, loop funds cannot be spent on widening that road.

See, that's what I'm talking about.

Logic tells me that at some point you gotta raise your hand and say "Ummm, excuse me Mr. State Legistators, excuse me Ms. Governor, excuse me Mr. Feds, uhhhhh, we have this money that we're supposed to use to widen this road that nobody uses, but right over there on the other side of 77, we have this road that is used by 100,000 vehicles per day. Could we just maybe go ahead and widen that part first to give immediate relief to those 10s of thousands of people, and then use that 2013 money for this part here, instead of just following the letter of the law and spending money here where it's not really needed yet?".

Like I said, whoever didn't do that ought to be fired. That's how real companies go under. That's how government gets the reputation for horrible waste and illogic.

Yeah, for sure, it was stupid to develop Ballantyne and all the other surrounding stuff. And the people who choose to live there pay the consequences of their choice to live there. But that doesn't make further development decisions any less suspect.

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In that case, write your state legislator. But really, this was simply a fact of how the political compromises and the statewide referendum played out that funded 485 in the first place. The Ballantyne area benefited from this money, and those were the strings attached.

If you are proposing for all public money everywhere to have all strings and qualifiers removed, then you might find that less money would go where you would vote it to go.

I think your points are simply your own experience with the frustrating fact that Charlotte does not have its transportation projects funded. There are many reasons for this, including that the gas tax revenue is not coming close to covering the inflation of materials and labor for projects. Another reason is that the state uses gas tax revenues to cover other expenses, so we are actually saving money in income taxes or state sales tax theoretically by having them use that existing revenue stream rather than raise taxes. Another reason is that Mecklenburg is one of 100 counties in NC, and the urban areas simply do not have the votes to raise transportation spending here by removing funds from rural areas or other cities.

The best case that I can make that is practical and not ineffective idealism, is to have a local revenue stream from and for this area for its roadway projects. The fact is, our current gas tax subsidizes rural North Carolina roads, period. There is no political change in the state legislature for this situation.

Note that even the state legislatures from this county alone bickered over the loop money when Mumford figured out a way to fund the one extra lane in the South (the one that is actually happening). When you have state legislators from Mecklenburg AGAINST the widening of 485 in the south because of the risk to the loop money in their own districts, then you sort of can imagine how people from other counties feel about it.

We need to start planning for the fact that we aren't going to get many projects finished within the current revenue stream from the state.

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See, that's what I'm talking about.

Logic tells me that at some point you gotta raise your hand and say "Ummm, excuse me Mr. State Legistators, excuse me Ms. Governor, excuse me Mr. Feds, uhhhhh, we have this money that we're supposed to use to widen this road that nobody uses, but right over there on the other side of 77, we have this road that is used by 100,000 vehicles per day. Could we just maybe go ahead and widen that part first to give immediate relief to those 10s of thousands of people, and then use that 2013 money for this part here, instead of just following the letter of the law and spending money here where it's not really needed yet?".

Like I said, whoever didn't do that ought to be fired. That's how real companies go under. That's how government gets the reputation for horrible waste and illogic.....

The political realities of the NCDOT are this.

  • The NCDOT controls almost all of the highway money in this state including the money to build I-485. Their authority comes from the NC Legislature which is comprised all members from all 100 counties in NC. Our NCDOT and its grip on road money is very unique in the USA. Only two other states have the same kind of control over state roads.
  • The NCDOT was created in the 1920s from what was then a mostly rural state, by rural legislators, to insure that money would be available to build roads in the backwashes of this state. Of course the only way this is done is by taking it from the more populated sections including Charlotte.
  • Furthermore localities such as Charlotte and Mecklenburg are prevented from collecting money to build highways unless specifically authorized by the Legislature.
  • In theory, 80 years later, one would think the increased representation of the urban areas might have changed this situation. It hasn't. The reason is party politics. Most newcomers do not understand the difference between the national GOP and Dem parties and the state ones and it's history and role in NC politics.
  • This is a subject for another complete topic, but basically in places such as Charlotte, where we have modern day politics, we elect state legislators that must operate in a Legislature designed for 19th century NC. Basically because the urban areas in the state, including Charlotte, always split their vote between the parties, and the legislators vote on party lines, our apparent strength in numbers disappear.
  • In the same token our legislators also have little seniority due to constantly changing population growth as compared to rural counties which tend to elect the same people over and over. Seniority determines what the NCDOT does before anything comes to a vote.
  • Likewise, because of this split vote, Governors in this state are elected by the rural vote, not the urban one. Whose concerns do you think they might listen to? Easley pays little attention to Charlotte unless there is a good photo op for him to show up here to participate in. He knows that in the scheme of things, his net votes from Mecklenburg county don't amount to that big a deal since we tend to split the vote by party.
  • I might add that much of NC, from a political point of view, doesn't hold Charlotte and Mecklenburg in high regard and much of the shortcomings in state investments are deliberate and by design. The county is often derided as "The Great State of Mecklenburg" and legislators have more than once said to let the city go to SC. In addition, our mayor, McCroy, has not done the city any favors in the Legislature. I believe he was strongly asked to leave the assembly once after he made the mistake of telling them what they were going to do instead of politely asking. McCroy is like a bull in a china shop. Only good if you want to piss people off.
  • Because of the above, the NCDOT continues to shortchange Mecklenburg on road building money.

Given that you will have almost no influence on the Governer in this state, though I am sure he will welcome your input, your best bet is to hold your local legislator accountable for his votes in the legislature. But if you do, he will pretty much tell you the same thing.

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....

Okay, so forget government. Back to the thought of the developers (Ballantyne, Crosland, etc., etc.) privately funding the road improvements. Yeah, right.

Actually this does happen if the local city councils places the burden to do so on developers before they approve zoning changes and/or building permits. One of the best places to see this happening right now is to look at the widening of Giliead Rd (exit 23) in Huntersville. Gazhi and others had to agree to widen and impove the area with sidewalks before getting approval to build the developments that are going up there now.

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