Traffic Congestion and Highway Construction

[Spartan]

A public hearing was held tonight by NCDOT on local projects with pne of the goals being public comment on delays on completing 485. Apparently no one showed up.

Its just proof that nobody cares when budgets go awry and projects are delayed when it involves a road. Where's Dr Hartgen when you need him?

Why not cancel the last leg of 485 (the northeast quadrant from 77n to 85n) and put that money towards improving roads, connecting existing surface roads, and increasing connectivity in the northeastern suburbs? Who needs a freaking circle anyway?

[monsoon]

....

Why not cancel the last leg of 485 (the northeast quadrant from 77n to 85n) and put that money towards improving roads, connecting existing surface roads, and increasing connectivity in the northeastern suburbs? Who needs a freaking circle anyway?

Actually there was a serious effort some years ago by local leaders to do just that, but the NCDOT would not agree.

In regards of the public hearing I am going to guess that nobody showed up mostly because nobody knew about it.

They don't do a very good job at announcing meetings. People in this county, if you have not noticed are very passionate about road building.

[Spartan]

Thats good to know. I'm not surprised at the outcome of that effort.

[Raintree21]

NC DOT reps will be at the Ballantyne Breakfast club this Saturday to discuss using the shoulders of I-485 during rush hour. The meeting is at 9:00am at Ballantyne Resort.

[grodney]

Do you have details (or a link to details) about this Ballantyne Breakfast Club? Who gets in? How? Cost? Thanks.

[Raintree21]

Do you have details (or a link to details) about this Ballantyne Breakfast Club? Who gets in? How? Cost? Thanks.

Their website is: http://www.ballantynebreakfastclub.com/. Their meetings start at 9:00am but the doors open at 8:30am. Coffee is served and there is no cost. They hold their meetings at the Ballantyne Resort or at the movie theatre across the street. A schedule can be found on their website but as I said above, this meeting is at the resort. Everyone is welcome but the purpose of the meeting/club is to act like a neighborhood watch/improvement organization. Just concerned citizens trying to keep abreast of developments and concerns. They usually have at least one government guest speaker like Mayor McCrory, Superintendent Peter Gorman, the CMPD Police, etc.

[grodney]

Wow, waste of time. There was very very little discussed about the should/re-striping project. It was clear from the start that the *intent* of the meeting was to talk about the actual TIP project to widen 485 -- the project that is supposed to start construction in 2015. However, after a short powerpoint talk, it turned into a beotch and whine session regarding politics and funding and so forth. Of course, the DOT engineers in attendance have nothing to do with any of that, so most of the time was spent with Mayor Pat and State Rep (or Sen) Rick Somebody answering most of the questions.

I have several pages of notes, which maybe I'll type up on Monday if I get bored. But really, it would just be for the humor value of some of the questions and applause-generators.

As for the shoulder/re-striping, Mayor Pat said he was promised a report in Febr, and then later we got a few more details about what has gone on so far toward that project. Again, I'll write of those details later.

[grodney]

Okay, from the Ballantyne Breakfast Club, DOT presentation on 485 improvements. Sorry for the length. I didn't know what people would think important and not important.

Opening introductions

- State Rep Rick Killian: "We need to build support to change the priorities in Raleigh, because the money is there."

- Cooksey (city council), Dulin (city council), Gjertsen (school board), Eschert (Pineville city council), Howard Bissel, Karen Martin (Communications at Bissel)

- McCrory:

---"DOT promised a report in February on using the shoulders"

---"They built the highway wrong to begin with" -- [isn't this a lie? Or at least a huge distortion?]

---"The City DOT has been telling them that for years"

---"They [legis] call it the 'Equity Formula', but it's not equitable"

- Some newspaper lady that writes for the Neighbors section

- A couple Parks people or other such things

- DOT engineers and project people

DOT talk - 485 from 77 to Johnston:

- Was built to support widening into the median

- Traffic count for 2007 = 102K-107K vehicles per day

- 3 year total = 746 crashes, 50% rear-end, 9% run-off road, 13% sideswipe.

- 104.3 crasher per 100 MVM (million vehicle miles?), above state ave 101.2, below critical 107.5

- This section operates at a LOS F. LOS is "a qualitative measure describing operational conditions within a traffic stream, and their perception by motorists". LOS has six levels from A to F, with F being the worst.

DOT talk - Actual TIP widening project:

- Cost = 51.7 million (does *not* include flyover on-ramp at Johnston), ROW cost only 100K

- Schedule = Environmental Assessment Feb 09, FONSI (Finding of No Significant Impact) by Nov 2009, ROW 2011, construction start 2015.

- Air Quality, Noise, Cultural Impact, Endangered Species surveys to be completed around Aug 2008 to be included in the Environmental Assessment

QUESTIONS [As I said, most of the questions were just beotching and whining, and based on an ignorance of the politics and funding and designing. As such, the DOT project people didn't have many answers, and generally McCrory or Killian jumped in with background info.]

- Those pictures you showed of 485 are all well and good, but do you have any from M-F at 5pm that show the REAL story? Answer: The pictures were shown to demonstrate the current width of the median, *not* to show traffic. [That was very clear in the presentation]

- How many employees does the DOT have? How can it take a year to do these studies?

- Why only add 2 lanes instead of 4 like it really needs? APPLAUSE.

- Does this include the flyover? Answer: We're looking at traffic models, we're still in planning.

- Is "loop money" the reason this is only to Johnston and not all the way to 74?

- When the mayor becomes the governor, I hope he doesn't forget us. Answer: A new administration would mean a new transportation board. APPLAUSE.

- Would the shoulder/re-striping band-aid delay the actual widening. Answer: No.

- Why is 85 through Salisbury so nice and wide? APPLAUSE. Political and funding answers given by McCrory and Killian. Notably, Killian said that the NC Dept of Revenue ended up with 1.8 *billion* extra dollars this year, but instead of it going to infrastructure, it went to the priorities of the small group of people controlling it.

- What, specifically, can I do to change things politically? McCrory: Write a letter to the Governor to get the Equity Formula changed Killian: Build support to get priorities changed in Raleigh.

- I came here for information, why are we going to split into smaller groups with the DOT people instead of just keep doing this?

- [blah blah blah, discussion to keep talking politics, even though we're wasting the DOT peoples' time]

- Is the north section of 485 going to be built before the south is widened? McCrory: There was an internal squabble between North and South in the City. The South could have been widened, and only delayed 485 in the North by one year. But because of the squabble, we all lost and the money went to Greenville.

- Cooksey: The Mayor and Rep are being nice and political. If you want to hear a less political views that cross the line of this public forum, please contact me (or the Mayor) one-on-one.

- More info on the shoulder/re-striping project?

--- There is roadway, but it is not designed for 65mph

--- We had to find out if general statutes allow it. The answer is yes.

--- Survey was done for: Vertical and horizontal clearances, bridges, guard rails.

--- Survey is done and was passed onto Logistics to analyze signing and physical changes.

--- This would only be for peak hours, would be speed-controlled, and likely truck-restricted

--- Funding is always an issue

- Why aren't the shoulders built at road-quality? Answer: Sometimes they are, like the newly widened part west of 77.

- Can we get a list of the address, e-mail, phone, of every Board of Transportation member? APPLAUSE. A reporter from the Observer answered that she would put it in her column. APPLAUSE.

- Hasn't technology improved such that roads can be built faster? Where is NC compared to, say, Texas?

- By the time you widen this, it won't be good enough, and it needs to be 8 lanes. Don't the Powers That Be understand?

- The best thing we can do, like him or not, is elect McCrory to be Gov.

- Bissel just built two new 10-story towers that will brings thousands more vehicles to this area. Don't you take that into account?

- [blah blah a few other political questions]

Edited February 4, 2008 by grodney

[Raintree21]

Besides the next report being given in February sometime, did they mention what the timetable on having the shoulders converted is?

[grodney]

Besides the next report being given in February sometime, did they mention what the timetable on having the shoulders converted is?

No, but the DOT people seemed very helpful, and provided a direct e-mail and phone number. So I think I'll write or call the main project engineer, and ask her for a timetable. I will report back here.

[ChiefJoJo]

- "They built the highway wrong to begin with" -- [isn't this a lie? Or at least a huge distortion?]

Obviousy land use and transportation are inextricably liked, so... when I-485 was planned in the early 80s, the county and city planned S. Meck to be largely rural in nature (no Ballantyne or Carolina Place!), thus a 4-lane freeway--whoops! Of course the DOT is now blamed for the current mess. Lesson: you can't trust local govt. to not change it's mind, especially on development issues. At least the median was built wide enough to accomodate 4 more lanes.

- How many employees does the DOT have? How can it take a year to do these studies?

Often projects are not delayed by planning/design, sometimes by money, and even if manpower is added, it still takes a considerable time. I-485 south is one that could be advanced if funding were available sooner.

- Why only add 2 lanes instead of 4 like it really needs? APPLAUSE.

- By the time you widen this, it won't be good enough, and it needs to be 8 lanes. Don't the Powers That Be understand?

- Is the north section of 485 going to be built before the south is widened? McCrory: There was an internal squabble between North and South in the City. The South could have been widened, and only delayed 485 in the North by one year. But because of the squabble, we all lost and the money went to Greenville.

Sort of complex answer, and both issues are interrelated and very political. Originally, the loop program only provided for new construction funds, so it didn't foresee widening projects like 485S. The project was added due to a bill introduced by a Meck delegation member (IIRC) which amended the loop funds to allow this project... but ONLY to widen to 6-lanes (stated in the bill). I believe this was part of the squabble between widening the south and finishing the north, so as they both competed for the same pot of money, the projects got delayed again--the Greenville thing is a joke I think--they have no loops. I believe there is a NE Meck GA member (bill sponsor?) who is preventing the south from advancing ahead of NE loop to I-85--the argument being, the NE needs it's loop finished before the south gets improved. FWIW, the south part probably does need to be 8-lanes but if it is to be built for that with this project--unless the law is changed--the city or some other entity (not DOT) will have to provide supplementary funds to build the 7th and 8th lanes... as crazy as that sounds.

Unless massive tax increases come (doubtful), the future is probably headed for HOT, or special toll lanes where people will pay to enter the lanes at rush hour or other times to ride free of congestion (buses usually ride free). It has been done in a few other areas, and arguably, it makes more efficient use of scarce tax dollars and infrastructure.

[Otto]

No, but the DOT people seemed very helpful, and provided a direct e-mail and phone number. So I think I'll write or call the main project engineer, and ask her for a timetable. I will report back here.

Charlotte is a victim of its own growth and zoning policies. Someone mentioned that new pair of ten-story towers were going to be built in vicinity of I-485. If the infrastructure can not accomodate why build them. Until funding priorities get straightened out within the state level politics, the city needs to take a hard look at how many large scale projects that are huge traffic generators they are approving. It doesn't take long to plan and design a high rise. A highway is different as there are a many overlapping and contradictory laws and policies that must be adhered to throughout the process because there are public monies being utilized. Your local politicians and planning organizations know this. They need to have their representatives at the state level busy fighting for funding changes. However, they also need to be proactive and take a hard look at the things that they can control....building permits and zoning changes.

Blaming DOT will not solve your problems. Changing the funding will not solve ALL of your problems. There are tons of major highway projects in Charlotte requiring funding and they all can't get built at the same time. They can try, but it will be at the expense of the other 96 counties not in Metrolina. If you feel its an urban v. rural county issue.....then who's to say that the other urban areas traffic concerns aren't as important as Charlotte's. Greensboro still has a loop that needs to be finished. Raleigh's western loop is about to be tolled....not that much toll talk regarding I-485. Fayetteville's loop still needs to be completed....that has national defense implications....how do I get 55,000 soldiers on Fort Bragg without them all having to drive down Ramsey Street, Country Club, Bragg Blvd, the Murch, ect, in case of a national emergency. Municipalities and citizens have to weight additional tax revenue from properties v. current infrastructure capacity. That's the first step.

[grodney]

the Greenville thing is a joke I think ....... FWIW, the south part probably does need to be 8-lanes but if it is to be built for that with this project--unless the law is changed--the city or some other entity (not DOT) will have to provide supplementary funds to build the 7th and 8th lanes... as crazy as that sounds.

He wasn't joking, but maybe he said Greensboro instead of Greenville. Or maybe he misspoke. Likely one of the two, because he was serious.

As far as other funds, as I sat there watching all these rich Ballantyne-ites cry in their coffee, I just kept thinking how they need to buck up and put up some money to help fix the problem that they had a large part in creating. Between the City and the Developers in that area, they are far more to blame (in my opinion) than the state. The developers (and residents!) certainly have money, lots of it. I doubt the City does, but I don't really know. Seriously, what is 56 million to the developers, corporate leasers, and residents of Ballantyne?

And Otto, I agree. But you needed to be at the meeting to beat down some of these whiners.

Edited February 4, 2008 by grodney

[dubone]

I wish someone would tell these people (and maybe they have), that they can and make it 20 lanes on 485 between 77 and Johnson, and not only will they still hit bottlenecks on either end, but they'll likely attract even more development and cars. I am supportive of correcting this road to a more sustainable 4 lanes per direction, but I don't think ANY urban freeway should be more than that. They should not be commuting within a city on an interstate freeway. Why do people setup their lives to do this? Especially one that every knows has financing problems to expand.

Oh, I know why no one says it, it doesn't draw: APPLAUSE.

[Charlotte_native]

I wish someone would tell these people (and maybe they have), that they can and make it 20 lanes on 485 between 77 and Johnson, and not only will they still hit bottlenecks on either end, but they'll likely attract even more development and cars. I am supportive of correcting this road to a more sustainable 4 lanes per direction, but I don't think ANY urban freeway should be more than that. They should not be commuting within a city on an interstate freeway. Why do people setup their lives to do this? Especially one that every knows has financing problems to expand.

Oh, I know why no one says it, it doesn't draw: APPLAUSE.

Lord I'm glad I can walk to:

my office

the grocery store

most of my clients

any restaurant or bar need that i'd have

soon to be a movie theater

and a light rail train stop for the rest of what i need if it isn't in walking distance

Look at LA or any other sprawling city that has been around for decades. You CAN'T pave your way out of these problems. Why is it so hard for that to sink in. If you set up your life in a metropolitan area in a spot where a car is necessary, don't act surprised and angry that you are stuck in your car in traffic all the time. It is inherently designed that way for better or for worse.

[monsoon]

... I just kept thinking how they need to buck up and put up some money to help fix the problem that they had a large part in creating. Between the City and the Developers in that area, they are far more to blame (in my opinion) than the state. The developers (and residents!) certainly have money, lots of it. I doubt the City does, but I don't really know. ....

The city and county are completely responsible for the mess down there. When they designed 485, it was supposed to be a transit corridor, not a development corridor. The city and county promised the NCDOT they would not change the zoning down there so that the road could be used to get from South Charlotte to East Charlotte without having to travel through the center city.

Guess what, it didn't happen. Before the road was even built, one of Charlotte's long term families (Harris) who had a lot of inherited land down there pressured the government to change all the zoning which allowed Ballentyne to be built. (the Harris family built SP) Sure, I guess it is OK to blame the people who actually bought these places, but that sprawl could not have happened without full approval of the Charlotte establishment. And that establishment includes the political leaders, the long established development community and the banks that provided all of the financing to build it.

The NCDOT designed 485 to be a transit corridor and when the city did not follow it's own promises then we have the mess we see today. An easy way to directly see this, is to drive down that section of 485 and look for the sound barriers. There are scant few of them. That is because they were only placed on development that existed before the highway was built and the state refuses to pay for them for developments that were approved after 485 was started. They consider that a Charlotte problem. (and rightfully so)

The fact of the matter is the NCDOT is going to design and build roads where there is demand for it. They might be slow about it, but that is what they do. What needs to happen is for the city, which has had complete zoning control over its EJT since 1996, to adopt sustainable zoning and urban development boundaries so that demand is never created in the first place. 12 years after the state gave them this control, it is yet to happen as right now, there is very similar sprawling development being approved on the newest part of I-485 in W. Charlotte.

[grodney]

The city and county are completely responsible for the mess down there. When they designed 485, it was supposed to be a transit corridor, not a development corridor. The city and county promised the NCDOT they would not change the zoning down there so that the road could be used to get from South Charlotte to East Charlotte without having to travel through the center city.

Which is why it was "interesting" to hear the mayor say: "They [the DOT] built the highway wrong to begin with."

I guess it's no surprise that he would say that, but it was sick to watch all the fat cats just eat it up and nod in agreement.

[grodney]

I just had a very nice chat with Angela Sanderson, the DOT Project Planning Engineer for the actual widening project. I asked her about a timeline for the possible shoulder/re-striping effort. At this time, that "study" is being handled at a (DOT) local level, with surveys being done for clearances, logistics, safety, emergency response, etc. Once all that information is collected, it will have to go to Raleigh for analysis. If everything is still a "go", it would have to go to the Federal Highway Administration for approval. So having said all that, she said she (personally) is unable to put any kind of timeframe on it. That's not to say that someone else in the DOT couldn't give a general idea, it's just that she, in her position as the engineer for the widening project, couldn't guess a timeline for the short-term study.

[Charlotte_native]

The city and county are completely responsible for the mess down there. When they designed 485, it was supposed to be a transit corridor, not a development corridor. The city and county promised the NCDOT they would not change the zoning down there so that the road could be used to get from South Charlotte to East Charlotte without having to travel through the center city.

I remember that. They were only supposed to have a limited number of exits as well and ended up opening up multiple new ones all over the place making the area ripe for development with no thought about the traffic impact. Funny, they are still doing this on the northern part. Our city/county government has always caved to things like this and look what we get. And everyone is still clamouring for more roads as if that would change the drive or commute time after all the new development is done around all the new roads. The only real beneficiaries of new roads, especially a 485 type roads, are builders, developers, and large tract landowners.

EDIT: I almost forgot the national beneficiaries, gas and oil companies and auto manufaturers.

Edited February 5, 2008 by Charlotte_native

[dubone]

If this was purely meant to be a bypass, they would have made it more direct and helpful. We all know why loops are built and if Charlotte stayed at 1980's size, it wouldn't be necessary to have a bypass anyway.

It is easy to blame the city for not sticking to a promise, but if that promise were kept, then why put all that freeway capacity there in the first place.

The state's main purpose for building these loops is to increase development and we all know it. The fact that they thought Charlotte wouldn't eventually reach the limits of the county is from a lack of paying attention regardless of whether some city council promised something.

I certainly agree with putting the blame all around, but let's face it, if so many people didn't plan a 45 commute on an interstate, we would not have nearly the same urban problems that we have in this country. 8 laning 485 will not help anyone. 4 laning it in a one-expansion per generation improvement is fine. But if these people think their commute will look like what they did ten years ago, they're mistaken.

Spending money to 8 lane that freeway takes away from infrastructure that will help the city. Putting it there will do nothing for anyone but change where people sit in traffic.

[nyxmike]

If this was purely meant to be a bypass, they would have made it more direct and helpful. We all know why loops are built and if Charlotte stayed at 1980's size, it wouldn't be necessary to have a bypass anyway.

It is easy to blame the city for not sticking to a promise, but if that promise were kept, then why put all that freeway capacity there in the first place.

The state's main purpose for building these loops is to increase development and we all know it. The fact that they thought Charlotte wouldn't eventually reach the limits of the county is from a lack of paying attention regardless of whether some city council promised something.

I certainly agree with putting the blame all around, but let's face it, if so many people didn't plan a 45 commute on an interstate, we would not have nearly the same urban problems that we have in this country. 8 laning 485 will not help anyone. 4 laning it in a one-expansion per generation improvement is fine. But if these people think their commute will look like what they did ten years ago, they're mistaken.

Spending money to 8 lane that freeway takes away from infrastructure that will help the city. Putting it there will do nothing for anyone but change where people sit in traffic.

I thought there isn't enough room to add 2 more lanes each way on 485 unless all the bridges/interchanges get re-built? It looks like you can only add one lane each direction, which I think is fine. No highway should be more than 3 or 4 lanes anyways. Sprawl is going to happen, whether 485 is 2 lanes or not.

[monsoon]

^I respectfully disagree. The state did not initially want to build I-485 or the Outer Beltway as it was once originally called. They reluctantly approved it in the 1980s after almost a decade of lobbying by Rusty Goode Jr, (Mecklenburg's long term representative to the NCDOT) starting back in 1978, and the then state representative James G. Martin who later became the governor of the state. It's no coincidence that sections of this road are named after both men. Remember this is a state that does not want to spend state money in Charlotte so it took a lot of local political muscle to get the state to approve this road.

When the road was finally approved and construction finally started, that part of Mecklenburg was a mostly undeveloped. The state designed the road using projections provided by the city that assumed no growth would be allowed in the area hence the 4 lane design of the original section. By the time it did open more than a decade after Goode and Martin starting pushing for it however, the city/county had approved a huge amount of development and that section of road was jammed from day 1. Immediately blame was laid on the state for building such a poorly designed road, but blame rests squarely on the heads of the local government for approving all that development in the first place. Without those approvals, it would have never happened.

BTW, the same effort that got I-485 approved also got I-277 approved at the same time. It was one of the worst planning disasters to ever hit Charlotte since it effectively removed dozens of square miles of very valuable land from the urban landscape and effectively separated downtown from the rest of the city. Even today it is a still along way's from recovering from that mistake.

[JRNYP2C]

I really hope the DOT and whoever is in charge of doing something about 485 gets up off their duff and does it soon!

I had the unfortunate experience of having to go to Carolina Place Mall from Uptown around 6:30, 6:45 and sat on the bypass over 77 for 15 minutes. It was enough past "rush" hour that I thought traffic would not be as bad as it was.

As much as I kind of like the places around that mall, I am SERIOUSLY going to rethink going over in that direction at any point during the afternoon/evening.

This is ridiculous! If I were a real estate agent, I would strongly advise against anyone who I was trying to find a house for in looking in that general area. If it takes you an HOUR to go from Uptown to Pineville to get home, that is some serious time to be wasted each day. I feel for those that are stuck in it all the time.

Maybe we should bus in some of the powers that be in Raleight and let them sit there every afternoon for a week with a meeting they need to get to at Ballantyne or somewhere close by. Maybe that would give them proper motivation.

Sorry for the rant - but what a waste of time it was! And not to mention all of the pollution that gets pushed into our air with cars just sitting there day after day! Yikes!

[Spartan]

Blaming DOT will not solve your problems. Changing the funding will not solve ALL of your problems. There are tons of major highway projects in Charlotte requiring funding and they all can't get built at the same time. They can try, but it will be at the expense of the other 96 counties not in Metrolina. If you feel its an urban v. rural county issue.....then who's to say that the other urban areas traffic concerns aren't as important as Charlotte's. Greensboro still has a loop that needs to be finished. Raleigh's western loop is about to be tolled....not that much toll talk regarding I-485. Fayetteville's loop still needs to be completed....that has national defense implications....how do I get 55,000 soldiers on Fort Bragg without them all having to drive down Ramsey Street, Country Club, Bragg Blvd, the Murch, ect, in case of a national emergency. Municipalities and citizens have to weight additional tax revenue from properties v. current infrastructure capacity. That's the first step.

Funding is only part of NCDOTs problem. The mentality of a lot of the higher ups in Raleigh needs to change. Why does every city over 50k in North Carolina need a loop road? Why do all roads need to be designed for the occasional 747 to land?

The city and county are completely responsible for the mess down there. When they designed 485, it was supposed to be a transit corridor, not a development corridor. The city and county promised the NCDOT they would not change the zoning down there so that the road could be used to get from South Charlotte to East Charlotte without having to travel through the center city.

- - - - -

The fact of the matter is the NCDOT is going to design and build roads where there is demand for it. They might be slow about it, but that is what they do. What needs to happen is for the city, which has had complete zoning control over its EJT since 1996, to adopt sustainable zoning and urban development boundaries so that demand is never created in the first place. 12 years after the state gave them this control, it is yet to happen as right now, there is very similar sprawling development being approved on the newest part of I-485 in W. Charlotte.

It was foolish of all parties to actually expect zoning in the outskirts of a growing city to stay the same. I sincerely hope NCDOT did not expect that to be the case. It sounds to me like the real purpose was to build a loop road so Charlotte could look like a big city.

The real fact is that NCDOT does not build urban roads. They are great at building rural highways that let people go fast. They are great at building interstates and controlled access highways. They are good at building standard suburban roads like Highway 51. However, when it comes to a multimodal approach to transportation, they don't get it. If they did, the City wouldn't need to take control of so many state roads. Part of the problem is funding at the state level, and they can't help that as much. But like I said above, there is a mentality shift that needs to occur in Raleigh.

[dubone]

The sad thing is that to beg so much for transportation funding, it sounds like Charlotte had to pretend that it would stay exactly the same forever with a wink and a secret mason handshake. There were likely lots of issues surrounding that, and I don't doubt that the city made all sort of pretenses, but I agree with Spartan, that it goes further to prove DOT's incompetence to only plan bridges and interchanges to expand by one lane in the largest city of the state, which was already growing fast.

I'm not saying that DOT should have known in the 1980s, with cows bathing in Little Sugar Creek, to build it 4 lanes right away, but how about a little bit of extra space under the bridges for the eventuality that Charlotte would grow. Those bridges are supposed to have a 50 year lifespan or so, right? Did they think that Charlotte in 2030 would still have all those cows? Did NCDOT not build all the other roads the connect the subdivisions to that development to make all that development happen? If they believed south Charlotte should only be a rural area, why did all those other streets get bumped up from little 2-lane roads?

I know it was very complex and it still is. But NCDOT should share in the blame for not leaving room for much expansion. If they had, we'd be talking about 4-laning it without nearly as much extra budget. But the fact that the whole thing will need to be rebuilt to get it that point is pretty much insane.

As to the inevitability of sprawl, I agree that our society is programmed to repeat that mistake over and over again. But I also believe that it can change one person at a time realizing the irrationality of it all. Our culture MUST change or our society will be completely unsustainable and eventually threatened. I don't have much sympathy for people complaining about traffic on these roads when they are clearly part of the problem. It is as though people don't want to be subject their consequences of their own patterns done by others. But I also think that many people are coming to the realization of the benefits of an urban lifestyle. I sold my car and renovated my home with the proceeds, and still save 6-800 dollars a month in car expenses.

Even if NCDOT was not corrupt, if its revenues or budget were doubled, if it spent here what we put in, the city would still be stuck in traffic. There is just absolutely no way to build out of the mess when each user of the system drives very long distances at the same time that 90% of the other users are doing the same. It can never ever sustain itself.