Traffic Congestion and Highway Construction

[nyxmike]

Well in order for them to be more useful, we need more of them. Hopefully they plan on using them to warn of accidents, congestion, and display travel times. There just aren't enough, and they are placed so sporadically they are useless.

[ChiefJoJo]

I think it's a great expediture of money. The point is to expand the fiber optic system such that all the freeways are linked up to the same central information management center, where traffic can be diverted and SHP called in if necessary. Make the existing system work smarter, rather than just build more lanes.

I've seen this system work very well on 40/85 in Winston/Greensboro when they were doing road work on I-40 in Durham. The messages were all coordinated probably 60 miles in advance to warn motorists of heavy delays (x minutes) not to take I-40. Anway, when used properly, it's a highly effective tool for traffic and incident management.

[Raintree21]

Anway, when used properly, it's a highly effective tool for traffic and incident management.

Key sentence, "when used properly." Why are Charlotte's signs not used properly?

[New Name]

I wasn't sure where to talk about this, and since Independence Blvd often comes up in this thread, I chose here:

I was driving inbound this afternoon and looking out over all the abandoned stripmalls, retail big boxes, small stores, all of it. And it got me to wonder. What happens to a building when it is abandoned? Is the owner responsible if he can not sell it to someone? Is he responsible for the taxes on the property and the utilities? If I owned one of those abandoned buildings, I would do everything I could to get it out of my name so I wouldn't be responsible for just the taxes. And does the city not have any power over them? Such as, if I were to abandon my a wrecked car somewhere, I assume I would be hunted down to deal with it.

Mods: If you can find a better place for this post, please move it.

[JerseyBoy]

Even Atlanta has fairly useful digital signs that let you know in advance if you are approaching an accident site.

Exactly. I just got back from Atlanta this evening and I can't tell you how helpful they are. The travel times to certain exits is also helpful. DOT could learn a thing or two from Georgia's Navigator system where they display average traffic speeds, cameras, message boards, etc online.

While traveling on 85 tonight (8:00-ish), I noticed that hardly any lights were on from the Catawba to 485. Bad timers or old bulbs?

[PlazaMidwoodGuy]

While traveling on 85 tonight (8:00-ish), I noticed that hardly any lights were on from the Catawba to 485. Bad timers or old bulbs?

No, an NCDOT that has allowed most of the interstate lights to go dark in Charlotte over the years and is just now beginning a program to fix them. If you scroll back a page or two in this thread you'll see plenty of info on this issue.

[ChiefJoJo]

Key sentence, "when used properly." Why are Charlotte's signs not used properly?

Fair enough. Investing in so called Intelligent Transportation System (ITS) technology infrastructure is still a smart idea, and that I will continue to defend. It could be a staffing issue, or it could be that the system is not complete enough (miles of interconnected fiber optic cable) to relay travel time and other pertinent info, I'm not really sure. It could be that this latest purchase will enable the system to function properly.

[JerseyBoy]

No, an NCDOT that has allowed most of the interstate lights to go dark in Charlotte over the years and is just now beginning a program to fix them. If you scroll back a page or two in this thread you'll see plenty of info on this issue.

Thanks, but I was aware of the problem on 77; just wasn't sure whether it carried over onto 85.

[UrbanFuture]

There is an article in the Observer this morning about the $1 billion dollar idea (no plan yet) to widen I-77 from I-485 through Uptown. The strategies mentioned in the article were rebuilding all of the interchanges over I-77 to be able to span 8-10 lanes total or building an elevated 4-lane section above the median for HOV's and willing toll paying single riders and not rebuilding the interchanges or changing the ground footprint of the highway.

Rebuilding the interchanges would be incredibly costly and disruptive. Not that anything on this road wouldn't be disruptive or costly. The article also goes into the fact that no one ever wants to talk about it because it is so expensive and difficult to undertake. They want to hire a consultant to do some feasibility studies by the end of the year.

EDIT: My grammer is atrocious this morning.

Edited April 6, 2008 by QCkid

[dubone]

http://www.charlotte.com/local/story/568661.html

That project has long been in the general plans for the 2025-2030 timeframe. I have long believed that that timing was okay. It now has a light rail line parallel, which commuters can use. It will soon have an interstate bypass to help reduce truck and car traffic that are passing through the city (the western stretch of 485 runs very close to 77 and will be a very competitive bypass). Also, it has an unintentional 'traffic meter' in that much of the South Charlotte commutes are actually bottlenecked on 485 before they get to 77.

That said, I do think that some prerequisite tasks, like overpass bridge building, could be programmed to come sooner if the final design is known.

On Independence, they already have the model for how the rest of the road will be built, as they have done a few sections already. If they were to do it all at once, they'd build interchanges, rebuild the road, build drainage system, build the transit median, etc. So they create a budget with a huge number that then constantly gets deprioritized because they find by delaying it, they can fund a dozen other smaller projects. However, let's say they did an interchange every two years, the budget for the final project would be smaller, and the budget for each interchange would be small enough that it could more likely fit within the small yearly budget. But it would have a huge impact. Traffic lights could be removed from Independence, even while the rest of the road is still like it is now.

Then look at 77, the final pricetag is monstrous. Replacing those bridges bit by bit over the decade or two of waiting for the actual widening will make he final widening much easier (they can do the whole 2 lanes open, 2 lanes under construction thing). It will also take away some of that cost, and the associated inflation, so that when it finally comes, it doesn't take up the entirety of the budget for years.

However, that road is not designed and known, like Independence is. It should likely be rebuilt larger, like the 10 lanes that Moose mentions, as it is already the busiest in the state, imagine it in 20 years. I must say, though, that when I used to commute on 77 for a bit, I used to think that the only way they'd be able to widen it, at least around downtown, was to double deck it. It is interesting that Moose is now talking about that, not just uptown (where you have creeks, neigborhoods and cemetaries which box it in), but all the way down. I find it a facinating idea that basically they could forego all bridge widening altogether by doing it this way. Here is how I envision a double decker working:

- Make the double decked part 4 lanes (2 per direction), which can be built over just one side of the freeway. (This yields 10 lanes with 3 current lanes + 2 new lanes above ground per diection)

- Make the double decked section express, with interchanges only going uptown, 485, and Woodlawn and/or Tyvola.

- Make the double decked section toll and high occupancy lanes, to help pay for the high costs.

- Disallow trucks, which should then allow for narrower lanes, and help keep the traffic lighter on the bridges.

It is still mighty expensive, though, but I think it is wise for NCDOT to start assessing the different options and their costs so they can start planning for it, and possibly, then, doing some tasks earlier.

Realistically, though, this project will have almost no chance of being done for 20 years, due to cost, unless they can do it incrementally. I'll be interested to see how much traffic shifts from 77 when the NW stretch of 485 opens (this year?).

[atlrvr]

Eh.....I-95 through NYC is only 3-lanes each direction.....I really see no logical reason that I-77 needs to be any wider.

Sure, it back up atrociously in NYC, but it is a metro of 22M, and I-95 connects it to Philly and Boston. Charlotte is 1/10th that size and I-77 connects it to Columbia and, what Charleston, WV?

$1B could probably add commuter rail all the way through Mooresville and down to Rock Hill, plus probably pay for a good chunk of commuter rail from China Grove to Kings Mtn.

Or we can go the Atlanta route, and keep adding lanes, which encourages people to live further out, and then have them completely choked a few years later.

[nyxmike]

Eh.....I-95 through NYC is only 3-lanes each direction.....I really see no logical reason that I-77 needs to be any wider.

Sure, it back up atrociously in NYC, but it is a metro of 22M, and I-95 connects it to Philly and Boston. Charlotte is 1/10th that size and I-77 connects it to Columbia and, what Charleston, WV?

$1B could probably add commuter rail all the way through Mooresville and down to Rock Hill, plus probably pay for a good chunk of commuter rail from China Grove to Kings Mtn.

Or we can go the Atlanta route, and keep adding lanes, which encourages people to live further out, and then have them completely choked a few years later.

Does I-95 run through NYC? I always thought it went through NJ, and it definately has more than 3 lanes. I agree about how we shouldn't keep adding more lanes, but I-77 should atleast 4 lanes on each side, so it connects to the 4 laned section in SC. I don't think an interstate should be wider than 4 or 5 lanes on each side, and I am all for mass transit, but our roads are way too small - this is a major urban area and our highways should not be 2 or 3 lanes on each side.

[Spartan]

I-95 runs the entire east coast, so it should pass through the NYC area at some point. This topic is interesting because it assume NCDOT will actually do something. Seems to me that when it comes to Charlotte, they like to plan and talk, but avoid looking us in the eye when it comes time to pay up. Like dubone said, its a great tactic to never have to pay for it. Speaking of which, I'm excited about that bypass around Ahoskie, NC. That town has been slowing me down for too many years.

$1B could probably add commuter rail all the way through Mooresville and down to Rock Hill, plus probably pay for a good chunk of commuter rail from China Grove to Kings Mtn.

Or we can go the Atlanta route, and keep adding lanes, which encourages people to live further out, and then have them completely choked a few years later.

Well said.

Since Charlotte isn't anywhere near as bad as Atlanta yet, I suggest that we conduct an experiment to see what would happen if we funded transit instead of adding capacity to interstates. If it doesn't work, Atlanta will still be worse.

[Neo]

Does I-95 run through NYC? I always thought it went through NJ, and it definately has more than 3 lanes.

I-95 in NJ parallel to Manhattan (notice that it is just six lanes like our I-77):

I-95 cuts across in the Bronx FWIW.

I'm of the opinion that it really doesn't need to be widened if it is, double deck it and make it a toll express to downtown. I wonder how many of those that were complaining about the price tag of the South LRT will be complaining about the price tag of this widening.

[atlrvr]

Yeah, I-95 runs parallel to Manhattan in NJ, before cutting across northern Manhattan and then through the Bronx and on into Westchester Co. There are definitely local exits in NYC, as I've taken them, and it's 3-lanes in each direction all the way through. It works because locals are smart enough not to take it, and is used primarly for people passing through, or coming from outside the realm of transit (which extends very far out). In Boston, I-93 and I-90 (which serve downtown) are both only 3 lanes and somehow it works, considering the CSA is 7 million or so, and downtown has 250% more office workers than Charlotte. I just don't buy the arguement that Charlotte NEEDS to widen the interstates.

It only makes sense to widen it if we concede that transit isn't a viable option and that people will continue to live further out regardless of the level of traffic that they will experience. I'm not ready to concede either fact, and would like to go a different path than Atlanta.

It's time to stop planning for today, and start planning for 50, 100, 200 years from now.

[tozmervo]

Idea one: We do not want to become Atlanta (an idea shared throughout the southeast, I might add)

Idea two: I-77 needs more lanes

You may only pick one of those to proceed. If I-77 is widened, it is only going to enable more suburban growth which will clog up the lanes as much as they already are. We will become Atlanta.

On a more critical note, I have no interest in making the commute for tax-dodgers in Rock Hill any easier unless they would like to pony up to Mecklenburg. They wanna live out there to avoid property taxes? Fine. Let them deal with it.

[ChiefJoJo]

I-95 runs the entire east coast, so it should pass through the NYC area at some point. This topic is interesting because it assumes [the North Carolina General Assembly] will actually do something. Seems to me that when it comes to Charlotte, they like to plan and talk, but avoid looking us in the eye when it comes time to pay up. Like dubone said, its a great tactic to never have to pay for it. Speaking of which, I'm excited about that bypass around Ahoskie, NC. That town has been slowing me down for too many years.

Corrected. ^

Atlrvr brings up a good point. So what exactly are we trying to achieve here? Dubone already mentioned 485 being completed to the west (a bypass for trucks and thru traffic) along with the South Corridor just to the east. Widening 77 to 10 lanes seems foolish to me, especially given the other two multi-hundred million dollar expenditures that were built to influence parallel N-S travel. I-485 will take care of the thru trips and trucks on I-77, so what we are saying here is 'let's spend $1-2B of NC's tax dollars for a SC commuter highway to Uptown.' More air pollution, more VMT, more greenhouse emissions... I think spending NC taxes to allow more people who work in Mecklenburg to live further away and take advantage of lower SC taxes and create more environmental problems sounds like a terrible idea. Besides, spending $Bs by adding 4 more lanes might get you 30% more capacity (diminishing returns), so how long do you think that would take to fill up with new drivers? 5-10 years? HOT lanes might defray some of the cost, but no where near close to the ultimate capital cost. Even if SC contributed to the cost (which would never happen), it's still a bad idea.

In an ideal world, the feds would let each state/region spand money on highways or transit as they see fit, and the region could extend rapid transit to Rock Hill. That, it seems to me, is the better, more sustainable, long term solution. Depending on who gets elected in Washington, I have to think that climate regs (cap & trade or carbon tax) will have to inform/drive decision-making like this... the sooner, the better.

[nyxmike]

I like the idea of HOT/Express lanes. They could put them in on 77 in North Mecklenburg, since there is plenty of room in the median, and then elevate them from Uptown to I-485/SC state line. I think it would be more beneficial to have the HOT/Express lanes on southern 77 through Uptown to the Lake Norman Area. If they double decked 77, how would the elevated interchanges work with the lower/existing ones? Does anyone know of any double-decked highways to look at for examples?

Edited April 7, 2008 by nyxmike

[JerseyBoy]

I-95 in NJ parallel to Manhattan (notice that it is just six lanes like our I-77):

I'm assuming that this photo was taken of the stetch of 95 near the Meadowlands? The turnpike splits up near Newark into two 6 lane sections (i.e. East 95 and West 95). Below this split is a 12 lane highway with designated HOV and truck sections. But, as many have already stated, the Cross Bronx Expressway is 6 lanes.

While I do not support the idea of widening 77 to 10 lanes, it would be in the best interest of the DOT to widen this to 8 lanes with some portions being 10. Workers will continue to drive north and south into Uptown and will use this road. I believe it's always best to maintain your current infrastructure and not rely on a bypass so that you can forget about the older road.

The only road that I can think of that is somewhat double-decked is I-95 at the Fla Turnpike interchange in Broward County:

[monsoon]

.....

On a more critical note, I have no interest in making the commute for tax-dodgers in Rock Hill any easier unless they would like to pony up to Mecklenburg. They wanna live out there to avoid property taxes? Fine. Let them deal with it.

It would be my guess the vast majority of the people using I-77 during rush hour live in Mecklenburg county and most likely in Charlotte. It should also be noted that a lot of the traffic on I-77 is through traffic. That is people using the road to travel between states. I only make this point because this is really Charlotte's problem and not one caused by the surrounding counties. Charlotte will never be able to tell the other counties how they should be doing development when it does such a poor job of it as well.

--------

It is my opinion however the building of I-77, like I-277 was a huge mistake in the first place. It should have never been placed so close to downtown though I realize that it was conceived at a time when more importance was placed on automobile supported suburbs. (99% of Charlotte) So the question is do we keep the road but don't upgrade it? Or IMO a better solution, get rid of it? I realize the get rid of it won't ever happen, at least not in the next 25 years, but one day this might happen. Part of the problem is that in this state, road decisions are not local, but state matters and most of what happens in Charlotte, via the NCDOT takes place in Albemaro and in Raleigh. It makes it very difficult for a community such as Charlotte to develop it's own solutions to these issues.

[Justadude]

In an ideal world I think it would be cool to expand I-77 but segment it into specialized lanes:

- 2 lanes each way for through traffic -- basically a no-exit expressway from Rock Hill to Davidson.

- 2 lanes for local traffic -- what exists now

- 1 lane for HOV/bus use

This would keep the flow going for true interstate drivers and encourage more efficent local transit. Hopefully that would pull enough cars off the road to keep the locals moving.

[New Name]

To me, the issue is not the functionality of I-77, but rather the lack of viable alternatives. We would not need to widen I-77 if we had another N/S alternative (similar to the Merrit Parkway in Connecticut leaving NYC, or the Garden State Parkways against the NJ Turnpike). I can't condone building ANOTHER highway though, so I guess we will have to take the train.

[Otto]

I-95 in NJ parallel to Manhattan (notice that it is just six lanes like our I-77):

I-95 cuts across in the Bronx FWIW.

I'm of the opinion that it really doesn't need to be widened if it is, double deck it and make it a toll express to downtown. I wonder how many of those that were complaining about the price tag of the South LRT will be complaining about the price tag of this widening.

Just for the sake of clarity....for those who do not travel up north often. I-95 (NJTP) is approximately 12 lanes wide (3-3-3-3) from south if I-287 to north of the Garden State Prkwy (GSP). North of the GSP, it is 14 lanes wide (4-3-3-4). I-95 splits into two separate highways (2-2 and 3-3) both numbered I-95 but each one having a different destination, George Washington Bridge and Lincoln Tunnel, respectively in order to separate midtown traffic from uptown and Meadowlands traffic. The both provide access to both transportation facilities but one going further inland. They both merge back together immediately south of the I-80 interchange before traveling to the GW Bridge to uptown Manhattan. The GW carries 14-lanes into Manhattan before dropping down to six-lanes through the Cross Bronx.

[Otto]

Yeah, I-95 runs parallel to Manhattan in NJ, before cutting across northern Manhattan and then through the Bronx and on into Westchester Co. There are definitely local exits in NYC, as I've taken them, and it's 3-lanes in each direction all the way through. It works because locals are smart enough not to take it, and is used primarly for people passing through, or coming from outside the realm of transit (which extends very far out). In Boston, I-93 and I-90 (which serve downtown) are both only 3 lanes and somehow it works, considering the CSA is 7 million or so, and downtown has 250% more office workers than Charlotte. I just don't buy the arguement that Charlotte NEEDS to widen the interstates.

It only makes sense to widen it if we concede that transit isn't a viable option and that people will continue to live further out regardless of the level of traffic that they will experience. I'm not ready to concede either fact, and would like to go a different path than Atlanta.

It's time to stop planning for today, and start planning for 50, 100, 200 years from now.

One must consider that folks in Boston and New York have an extensive system of subways and regional commuter rail. It is definitely a different mentality. The Long Island RR takes over 200,000 commuters into Midtown Manhattan everyday....and these are mainly folks from Queens, and the remainder of Long Island. Not to mention Metro North or NJ Transit...both also providing regional commuter rail. Then add the PATH subway and the actual NYC Subway....and the MTA Bus. You will be hard pressed to find a freeway over six-lanes wide on the New York side of the Hudson. Traffic sucks, but for commuters and intra-city travelers, steel wheels on steel rails are the way to go. As progressive as Charlotte is.....its citizens and those of the surrounding counties will need to take on a north of the Potomac mentality. That is to say start thinking like commuters in Baltimore-Washington, Philly Metro, NYC-northern NJ, and Boston

[dubone]

In an ideal world I think it would be cool to expand I-77 but segment it into specialized lanes:

- 2 lanes each way for through traffic -- basically a no-exit expressway from Rock Hill to Davidson.

- 2 lanes for local traffic -- what exists now

- 1 lane for HOV/bus use

This would keep the flow going for true interstate drivers and encourage more efficent local transit. Hopefully that would pull enough cars off the road to keep the locals moving.

The truly through-traffic, from Davidson to Rockhill, are already taken care of by 485 to the west. That is a very viable bypass, and there are very few chances that it will become the clusterfuge of the southern section. Gaston is a slow growth county, the airport prevents a lot of growth, the river flood plain prevents a lot of growth, etc. The issue with 77 south of uptown are the trucking and commuting needs intown that can't be shifted to the perimeter. You also have a collector from the fastest growing county in the state feeding right to this road.

The train is a very good alternative, and that is one of the many reasons the South line was built first.

I absolutely don't want it to be a massively wide interstate like Otto described around NYC, or like what you see in Atlanta. I believe that investing in regional infrastructure like 'urban' interstates/freeway helps keep the central core of the city relevant and accessible.