Traffic Congestion and Highway Construction

[Spartan]

I just don't buy the arguement that Charlotte NEEDS to widen the interstates.

It only makes sense to widen it if we concede that transit isn't a viable option and that people will continue to live further out regardless of the level of traffic that they will experience. I'm not ready to concede either fact, and would like to go a different path than Atlanta.

It's time to stop planning for today, and start planning for 50, 100, 200 years from now.

One thing that is worth mentioning is that toll roads are going to be the wave of the future of highway expansion, so anyone who wants to enjoy the extra capacity will have to pay per mile driven, rather than indirectly via gas taxes (etc).

So the question is do we keep the road but don't upgrade it? Or IMO a better solution, get rid of it?

I agree. But that makes me wonder.... has ANY state even given up part or all of a federally funded interstate?

[Boricua]

Does any one have know an example of a double decked interstate highway?

[tozmervo]

Whenever I think of double decked highway, I think of the Cypress Street Viaduct (I-880). But maybe that's just me.

[grodney]

Does any one have know an example of a double decked interstate highway?

I-35 through Austin has an upper and a lower. Take the upper if you want to bypass downtown. Take the lower if you need one of those exits. Is that what you mean?

http://www.texasfreeway.com/Austin/photos/i35/i35.shtml

Edited April 8, 2008 by grodney

[dubone]

That is pretty much what Barry Moose will include as an option in their analysis, although it appears that 77 is boxed in enough by expensive commercial property that he thinks it is a possible option all the way past Tyvola.

[grodney]

The truly through-traffic, from Davidson to Rockhill, are already taken care of by 485 to the west. That is a very viable bypass, and there are very few chances that it will become the clusterfuge of the southern section.

Totally agree. As I posted earlier, the 485 route is right at 4 miles longer (22 miles vs. 18 miles). It seems really stupid (to me) to widen 77 when that bypass is available. And this is coming from a guy who uses 77 to get to Uptown every day, so widening would technically be in my own personal best interest.

[dubone]

It will take another year to know how much through traffic is removed by 485 (although I think it is wise for NCDOT to post very prominent signs indicating that it is not much longer so that people know to use it).

I think in the end, we'll find that much of the traffic on 77 will remain and the widening will still be needed in 2025.

[Creasy336]

Electronic Message boards directing all Rock Hill and Columbia (or Mooresville/ Statesville depending on the rush hour) traffic to I-485 during rush hour would help. Charlotte is lucky though, if I-77 was substandard through uptown you would see Green 77 routed through uptown and a I-77/I-485 multiplex on the westside of the city. Look at your neighbors to the north for evidence.

[Justadude]

Electronic Message boards directing all Rock Hill and Columbia (or Mooresville/ Statesville depending on the rush hour) traffic to I-485 during rush hour would help.

I was getting ready to say the same thing I have a feeling that most interstate through-traffic drivers would never think to get off 77. It would help immensely if there was an effort at education, especially by using the message boards that we all agree are currently underutilized. A simple message: "Congestion Ahead -- Through Traffic Take Exit XX" might be enough to reduce the length of traffic jams.

[atlrvr]

I think in the end, we'll find that much of the traffic on 77 will remain and the widening will still be needed in 2025.

^ Why? What will widening accomplish, 5 years of marginally better flow, and then when it chokes again with all the new growth that the temporary relief encouraged, then what? Again, Atlanta has been down this road...in fact they are talking of widening I-75 to 23 lanes in Cobb Co.....is that really going to solve the problem? Nope.

Improving the street grid within the city to better distribute local traffic would have far better consequences in my opinion. People use the interstate because South Blvd is choked, but it is choked because there are no other North-South parallel streets.....sort of a trickle down effect.

If they were to add any capacity to I-77, I would only support a Toll Lane for commercial vehicles (trucks). Traffic isn't bad enough to offer relief to commuters when obviously 95% are single-occupancy.

As far as Austin, I recently got the "pleasure" of driving down I-35 during rush hour. The double-deck configuration didn't make life any easier....I sat and sat and sat. Since I-35 is really the only high-capacity road (currently), all the growth is linear along the interstate, a perfect example of the affects of interstates on human geography. That said, they are currently building as many toll-road freeways as they can.....hmmm...let me guess, there will be more sprawl at those exits as well.

[monsoon]

Improving the street grid within the city to better distribute local traffic would have far better consequences in my opinion. People use the interstate because South Blvd is choked, but it is choked because there are no other North-South parallel streets.....sort of a trickle down effect......

I don't disagree with anything you said about the consequences on the way Charlotte has been developed, but I also don't see how you could go back and re-engineer Charlotte's streets to something more sensible. There would be huge cries of property rights, compensation, etc if they decided to tear out the winding circular roads and replace them with a grid network. This started BTW with the construction of Myers Park and Eastover (the prototypes of bad development) and has continued ever since. I-277 also really hurt as well because it focuses all traffic into and out of downtown to just a few streets.

[dubone]

To increase the capacity of the state's most widely traveled roadway to that of many other roads in the city and state.

I agree with you that there are rapidly diminishing returns, as the congestion returns quickly as more sprawl ends up being created to dump cars on the roadway. As I said earlier, there is not a lot of benefit to the city to starve the infrastructure in the central part of the city (inside the loop), or else more businesses will simply locate around the loop and we'll have centrufugal action that risks causing the proverbial donut city.

I absolutely think there should be a limit, and that the increases in capacity should also increase efficiency. Toll lanes and HOV lanes I believe will help drive up the efficiency of the road, with the rest either getting just one extra lane, or else being held constant.

(There is no question that parallel roads should also be expanded. DOT should looking to expand Nations Ford as soon as possible to a standard thoroughfare, creating a viable parallel corridor between Westinghouse and Billy Graham. They should also connect Nations Ford to Stuart Andrews Blvd to allow for further travel to West Blvd. For most of that way, Barringer has Revolution Park on one side, so there is no real reason that can't become a thoroughfare to help alleviate traffic on Tryon and South in addition to 77. )

I am not talking about building a 23 lane freeway. I absolutely do think, however, that in 2025, Interstate 77 through central Charlotte should be 10 lanes (5+5). That will still be small enough and far enough away to prevent some of the interstate-created sprawl, but will help provide at least as much capacity on that road as exists in other current interstates in Charlotte, Greensboro, and Raleigh.

[atlrvr]

I guess I just don't buy the argument that Charlotte should have 4-5 lanes in each direction just because Greensboro and Raleigh do.....

I'd possibly buy the argument that expanding the road is a stop-gap measure while a comprehensive transportation system is developed with focues on transit, but this isn't a rural widening project. This is $1B in the hole, that could do transit a lot of good.

If we resign ourselves to widening to accomodate exurbanites (I have a problem with the word suburban), then where does the cycle finally end? If Charlotte wants to be a model progressive city, then it needs to come up model progressive solutions, not just keeping up with the neighbors all the while hoping things won't turn out the same way here....they will.

The city/metro area leaders need to grow a pair, stand up and say, what we're doing isn't sustainable, our current philosophy isn't sustainable, and we're not going to keep going doing things this way. Everything from transportation planning to land use planning, to micro-level zoning needs an overhaul, and if at the end of the day, that dissuades a large chunk of people from relocating to Charlotte, maybe that's not all bad.

I'd rather live in The Hague, Netherlands, than in Houston.

[monsoon]

^Indeed. The only municipality anywhere in the entire MSA, even CSA that does a reasonable job of this is Davidson. Davidson manages this without any effective public transit as they must rely on that broken down Village Rider that CATS operates in the north. I honestly think they ought to disengage themselves from CATS and use their share of the transit tax to fund their own city bus system. Couple that with the fact they also don't control their roads, the generally unresponsive NCDOT does, it's almost a miracle they have not succumbed to really bad development that exists elsewhere. On top of this, Davidson manages to be a place that has all income levels living in close proximity unlike these fake trendy urban enclaves that only cater to one demographic.

A lot could be learned from what they are doing there without having to travel to Europe.

[grodney]

There was (is) a several-mile backup on 77 Northbound as I made my way Southbound at 3:45 today. I couldn't help but think of this thread and wonder how many of those people were thru traffic and wish 485 were done. It occurred to me that in addition to a sign on 77 (northbound) before 485, you would also want a sign on 485 (westbound) before 77, encouraging people to continue on 485 if they are going all the way to the north-side.

[JerseyBoy]

I guess I just don't buy the argument that Charlotte should have 4-5 lanes in each direction just because Greensboro and Raleigh do.....

I'd possibly buy the argument that expanding the road is a stop-gap measure while a comprehensive transportation system is developed with focues on transit, but this isn't a rural widening project. This is $1B in the hole, that could do transit a lot of good.

If we resign ourselves to widening to accomodate exurbanites (I have a problem with the word suburban), then where does the cycle finally end? If Charlotte wants to be a model progressive city, then it needs to come up model progressive solutions, not just keeping up with the neighbors all the while hoping things won't turn out the same way here....they will.

The city/metro area leaders need to grow a pair, stand up and say, what we're doing isn't sustainable, our current philosophy isn't sustainable, and we're not going to keep going doing things this way. Everything from transportation planning to land use planning, to micro-level zoning needs an overhaul, and if at the end of the day, that dissuades a large chunk of people from relocating to Charlotte, maybe that's not all bad.

I'd rather live in The Hague, Netherlands, than in Houston.

Maybe not widening 77, but at least make it safer. Tight merging lanes and hardly any break down lanes plague this road. As I said, it is always a smart investment to maintain your current infrastructure than to keep building new.

[nyxmike]

Maybe not widening 77, but at least make it safer. Tight merging lanes and hardly any break down lanes plague this road. As I said, it is always a smart investment to maintain your current infrastructure than to keep building new.

That's a good point. They should work on adding more shoulder space on I-77, turn the lights back on, and extend/fix some of the merge lanes so they aren't so tight. I think we all agree something needs to be done to I-77 - either minor adjustments or something major. In north Mecklenburg, the DOT should really widen 21 and 115 (2 lanes one each side with landscaped median, bike lanes, and sidewalks) which both parallel I-77. In southern Mecklenburg, they should also widen Nations Ford Road the same way. We have plenty of alternatives, the problem is those are still mostly "country roads", and if they were upgraded they would help relieve congestion on our interstates as well. Something else to consider - York County, SC. 77 is 8 lanes there, taxes are lower, and business are moving there as well as people. The growth in York County is going to affect us in Mecklenburg, and the growth there is inevitable. I am not against it, but I do think we need to work with York County, whether that is transit or roads, or putting up a toll booth at the SC state line lol.

Edited April 9, 2008 by nyxmike

[Boricua]

yes. Thats what I needed to see. Thanks Grodney

[ChiefJoJo]

One thing that is worth mentioning is that toll roads are going to be the wave of the future of highway expansion, so anyone who wants to enjoy the extra capacity will have to pay per mile driven, rather than indirectly via gas taxes (etc).

I very much agree with you on this point. With a potential project cost easily in the $1-2B range, some kind of tolling is certainly unavoidable. Personally, I am very much against creating additional "free" roadway capacity, especially easing the commute of "tax-evading" SC residents (or even Meck residents for that matter) who may use the interstate. If capacity is added, it should only be in the form of managed lanes: HOV 3+ or HOT lanes (trucks should be routed to I-485). At least this would encourage carpooling or mass transit in the additional lanes to achieve more efficient throughput of people, not just SOVs.

I also don't buy for a second, the Raleigh/Greensboro argument for Charlotte. If Charlotte worried so much about what the other cities in NC were doing relative to LU and transportation, center city wouldn't be thriving and CATS might not exist. Charlotte has been and should continue to be a leader in the state for integrating land use and transportation planning, and how the city handles the I-77 widening can be another positive example for the rest of the state.

Yes, I-77 is a state-owned road, but as it did setting the vision on Independence, I-77 N HOV, and Lynx, if it pushes hard enough with a broad consensus, the city can move the state along towards achieving it's goals.

[monsoon]

Lighting on I-77 has been one of the more active subjects explored in this topic. The NCDOT recently fixed some of the lights on I-77N between downtown and I-85. Now, it seems at least 15 and more likely 20 of these lights are back out again because thieves came and stole all of the copper wire out of the lights. It only took a few days after the lights were turned back on. Maybe the hatch on these lights should be made more difficult to open.

[Neo]

Lighting on I-77 has been one of the more active subjects explored in this topic. The NCDOT recently fixed some of the lights on I-77N between downtown and I-85. Now, it seems at least 15 and more likely 20 of these lights are back out again because thieves came and stole all of the copper wire out of the lights. It only took a few days after the lights were turned back on. Maybe the hatch on these lights should be made more difficult to open.

That is a shame. Is it illegal to charge the hatch with enough current to zap a thief?

One would think that NCDOT would be trying to figure out how to prevent this before fixing more lights only to have the copper from them stolen as well. Is this theft happening in other cities as well or is it isolated here?

[nyxmike]

Lighting on I-77 has been one of the more active subjects explored in this topic. The NCDOT recently fixed some of the lights on I-77N between downtown and I-85. Now, it seems at least 15 and more likely 20 of these lights are back out again because thieves came and stole all of the copper wire out of the lights. It only took a few days after the lights were turned back on. Maybe the hatch on these lights should be made more difficult to open.

If you go to page 34/35 I posted an article about thieves stealing the copper. The NCDOT said they were going to install tamperproof panels. I hope they are doing that. Progress seems to be really slow with the lights.

As far as this happening other places... it sure doesn't seem like it. I have been to a lot of cities and a majority, if not all, of the highway lights are on.

Edited April 30, 2008 by nyxmike

[Raintree21]

I met a guy who used to work on the lights (might have been a different city though) and he said they never had ANYONE steal the copper from their lights except for one person who attempted it unsuccessfully. Something about leaving the electricity powering the lights turned on 24/7....

[Raintree21]

I'm sure some of you will be happy to hear that the on ramp from 77 to Brookshire was lit tonight.

[tozmervo]

Thanks for the tip. I'll hit it up for the wiring in a couple of hours.