Traffic Congestion and Highway Construction

[ah59396]

How long is the track at the Speedway? I thought it was 1.6 miles, but I may be wrong.

[Bikeguy]

^ it's 1.5 miles

[ah59396]

Gracias^

My knowledge of racing is obviously paltry.

Edited May 24, 2012 by ah59396

[Norm2]

So the state is thinking about running HOT lanes down the middle of Independence? Interesting

[dubone]

http://ulicharlotte.wordpress.com/2012/01/30/uli-daniel-rose-center-independence-blvd-report/

Here is the ULI report that is now being baked into policy. The rail/BRT corridor is being abandoned in exchange for streetcar on Monroe, freeing Independence to be a regional freeway with HOV/HOT lanes with a single barrier down the center. The land along the freeway will slowly be reoriented back toward the neighborhoods with some new connector streets to be built.

It really is much more of a no-brainer once you see it laid out that way compared to the seeming impossible idea of a mass transit in the middle of the freeway somehow spurring an odd urban environment facing a freeway.

[kermit]

^ While I do agree that Independence blvd. LRT / BRT was never going to be able to revitalization in the corridor the strategy did have the merit of moving commuters quickly from Matthews / East Charlotte into downtown. A streetcar on Monroe really can't do that. I fear that cutting off both Matthews and Ballantyne from any sort of rapid transit into town (apparently I don't think that Express busses count since they run in traffic) risks spreading the Island Mentality that already exists in Ballantyne.

[dubone]

A streetcar on Monroe doesn't hope to do that. It is to serve the local community primarily. Express busses can use the HOV/HOT lanes and because those lanes are designed to keep traffic in that lane moving, while allowing the flexibility of bus routes it is actually better than the BRT that was planned.

[Norm2]

A streetcar on Monroe doesn't hope to do that. It is to serve the local community primarily. Express busses can use the HOV/HOT lanes and because those lanes are designed to keep traffic in that lane moving, while allowing the flexibility of bus routes it is actually better than the BRT that was planned.

As long as buses are able to use the HOT lanes as well, then i am on board with this plan. Just imagine there could be streetcars going down both Central Ave AND Monroe. Question is how far down Monroe will the streetcar run, and where uptown will it begin?

[kermit]

A streetcar on Monroe doesn't hope to do that. It is to serve the local community primarily. Express busses can use the HOV/HOT lanes and because those lanes are designed to keep traffic in that lane moving, while allowing the flexibility of bus routes it is actually better than the BRT that was planned.

fiar enough -- I didn't think of this option. As long as some type of corridor bus service can run on the HOV lanes to connect Matthews and Charlotte I'll refrain from whining about the loss of some type of rapid rail Even better if the state roads budget pays for the HOV lanes and CATS can save its capital budget for rail projects that have a chance of creating TOD.

I do hope the city can develop a robust enough TIF strategy to finance a dense streetcar network effectively.

[Third Strike]

As long as buses are able to use the HOT lanes as well, then i am on board with this plan. Just imagine there could be streetcars going down both Central Ave AND Monroe. Question is how far down Monroe will the streetcar run, and where uptown will it begin?

I'm guessing it'll splinter off of the main street car line on 7th Street, and probably end in downtown Matthews, on John Street. The original LRT/BRT plans had the line ending at the CPCC Levine campus, so maybe that also might be another potential terminus.

[dubone]

Right, that is the plan. Of course express buses will use the HOT lanes, in fact with congestion pricing the bus can sometimes win over some commuters by letting it compete with something other than a free.

And of course, this will also mean express buses can come in from other areas or adjust their routes and still hop on the HOV lane as opposed to BRT which is a built up bus route.

Overall this delay is rather frustrating, as it all should have been sorted out a lot earlier. But this ULI plan is very much more practical and common sense and as long as CATS does throw up a middle finger to the Monroe streetcar like they did the Central streetcar, it will actually be better at spurring the urban redevelopment than the Silver line ever hoped to.

This next stretch of Independence seems short, but while the freeway and HOV lanes will only be extended to Conference Dr, the fact that there are no lights between Conference and Harris Blvd means 6.5 miles total of no-traffic signals, or almost 2/3 of the distance between 277 and 485.

[tozmervo]

Are there precedents in other cities of a road like Independence being turned into a freeway? This can't be a situation unique to Charlotte

[dubone]

Virtually every city in the US has a route or two like Independence, all dealing with it in different ways. Many become freeways of a different design than an interstate, others have become business routes of the interstate.

The fact, though, that the market for the business has collapsed means we might as well get the regional benefits of a freeway and let the land be re-tailored to suit local needs by primarily reorienting back to the neighborhoods. Certainly some regional focus can remain but having them connected to cross streets/interchanges versus driveways directly onto the the thru-route is a no brainer.

[cowboy_wilhelm]

Gaston officials slam state Senate after parkway money rerouted - Charlotte Observer, June 13, 2012

"Gaston County officials are upset over state Senate action this week that removed $17.5 million for the Garden Parkway project from the proposed 2012-2013 budget. The money would go to another county’s road project, they said, and possibly delay the controversial parkway. They say they are hopeful the House won’t go along with the Senate plan."

[tozmervo]

Good news for those of us that oppose the Garden Parkway. NCDOT has withdrawn its environmental permits. They say they'll be refiled eventually, but for now this effectively kills forward momentum on the project.

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2012/07/12/3376545/dot-withdraws-garden-parkway-permit.html

[dubone]

It is a shame that more important infrastructural expansions were not able to move as fast as the two toll projects (Monroe and Gastonia bypasses). The fact that the future toll revenue gave the projects a fully funded status all the way through the project seemed to give the project managers hubris. In so many other projects there was a repeated review and prioritization to get funded, whereas these projects sailed along.

Certainly almost everyone who has driven to Wilmington on 74 knows that Monroe bypass is necessary for the region, as there is no freeway or interstate in that direction, and you spend an hour of infuriating driving just to get past Union county. But DOT really screwed it up by half-assing the environment permitting.

Garden Parkway, however, was clearly always a 'we want a beltway too' project primarily to support sprawl. It has some merits, but it does not come close to being as necessary as other projects in the region.

[New Name]

I just like to use this forum to complain about something (to someone) so I feel better:

3 times in the last 10 days I've been dead-stopped on I-77 from Mooresville to Charlotte southbound at 4:30pm. I'm talking: put your car in park. 90 minute commutes to go 30 miles. That road is god awful and getting worse in all directions.

I read a blurb this week that said that NCDOT was going to start to rebuild the I-77/I-40 interchange in Statesville this year. The statistic that jumped out to me was that it was built in the 60s to handle 5,000 cars a day - and it is currently handling 70,000. I simply can't believe the state allows so much over-capacity before it does ANYTHING. Thats' 14x capacity...in Statesville! Can you imagine how over-capacity I-77 is at Lake Norman?

::end rant::

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2012/07/07/3368041/89m-overhaul-of-i-40-i-77-interchange.html

[ah59396]

As long as the people who control NCDOT only have to drive the roads in the Triangle, you can expect things to stay this way. It's no coincidence that the infrastructure from the Triad to the Triangle is FAR superior to that of Metrolina. We will always be second fiddle.

[dubone]

Well, keep in mind that part of the problem is that interstates are hyper expensive to build. We have a society now that pretty much lives its lives by way of interstate commuting rather than using them only for inter-city driving on occassion.

The solution that NCDOT is looking at doing to solve the particular problem of 77 in LKN area is to double the capacity, but by using HOT lanes. Of course plenty of people will be angry about that, because they're used to getting billion dollar interstate expansions that improve their commutes that they don't have to pay for or find someone to carpool with. But the toll aspect of the 2 new lanes will allow the expansion to happen much more quickly than otherwise, and also allow them to adjust the toll by supply and demand so that it it is priced in a way to keep the lanes moving. The brilliance is you still will have the current free lanes which will likely still be full of traffic minus the vehicles that already were carpooling and minus the vehicles with drivers willing to pay for the toll lanes. That could be enough vehicles removed to make the free lanes move freely again, or they may remain congested. But if they were added as freeway lanes, what happens is that they end up supporting new sprawl much quicker and you are back to the original problem.

So 2 new HOT lanes will be added in each direction in Meck county to the causeway and then one new lane in each direction from the causeway through Mooresville.

http://www.ncsite.org/meeting_archives/documents/AM_2010/Session-3B-Topic-i-I-77-HOT-Lanes-Purnell-PB.pdf

http://www.ncdot.gov/doh/preconstruct/altern/design_build/HOCTPARTNERSHIP/HOCtollppp.html

[carolinagarnet]

This may be flawed thinking, but Greensboro and Raleigh are overbuilt on highways and should probably be able to handle atheist population growth in those areas for the forseeable future. There do not seem to be any other areas of huge need in the state, so shouldn't is mean that Charlotte will be getting the bulk of new highway dollars? Am I missing something here?

[DieHardGiantsFan]

As much as I hate supporting highway expansion, I agree that I-85 is one of the most important aspects of Charlotte's economy, and widening it to at least satisfy capacity should be one of the top priorities of the NCDOT.

I-77 and I-485....these items take a backburner, and should sacrifice at the expense of the commercially important I-85.

That said, commuter rail is what will save this region. Atlanta is 25 years behind trying to implement this strategy that serves "suburban living". Even though I believe that suburban living will become out of style in the next 15 years, it will be important to support high-density nodes and the existing suburban population.

I disagree. Being one that lives just outside Mecklenburg on the Southeast end (Stallings, specifically), I can tell you that 85 is fine right now. It's 4 lanes in each direction near the 77 interchange, and 3 minimum each way for the duration of the city of Charlotte.

The problem is whatever MORON it was that came up with this assassine idea back in 1988 that Charlotte's population would never grow, that it would be stagnant for ever, and that 485 on the south end, near Pineville, oh, and by the way, right by a freaking mall, only needed 2 lanes in each direction????? And yes, they knew at that time a mall was being built to open in the early 90s.

You ever try to drive 485-Outer during rush hour starting at the Speghetti interchange of I-77 (Exit 67)? It's a parking lot all the freaking time because some moron decides that 3 lanes are only needed for the first 2 miles, and we'll have all of rush hour traffic merge down to 2 lanes! Yeah, real smart! NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

485 is the worst organized project ever! Morons decide the conjested areas by a mall need only 2 lanes, but rural areas like Rocky River road need 3 lanes, and they can't even complete a 67 mile loop in 24 years time? Come on, man!!!!

Edited July 12, 2012 by DieHardGiantsFan

[orulz]

This may be flawed thinking, but Greensboro and Raleigh are overbuilt on highways and should probably be able to handle atheist population growth in those areas for the forseeable future. There do not seem to be any other areas of huge need in the state, so shouldn't is mean that Charlotte will be getting the bulk of new highway dollars? Am I missing something here?

Can't really speak for the Triad, but there certainly is congestion in the Raleigh area. The worst one is the 4-lane segment on I-40 between exit 306 and 309. Another one is the I-440 beltline between exit 1 and 4. I don't think we have anything quite as bad as I-77N, but the planned fixes also aren't nearly as expensive either. Our $billion+ road project in progress right now, Triangle Expressway (aka the southern half of the 540 loop) is being built as a toll road.

[dubone]

@ DieHardGiantsFan - Please do not reply to very old posts (2006) with so much energy.

I'm glad the Triangle Expressway is being built as a tollway. In fact, all of NC's toll roads are being built without tollbooths using license plate billing and high speed transponders. So as long as the roads make sense in the first place, urban/suburban interstates should definitely be built with toll revenues. It helps to manage the congestion as the users of the road help to pay both for the original construction and future expansion. And it reduces some new sprawl as there will be a daily cost to the commuting on tollways.

[Skyybutter]

Does anyone know the timeline for the 85 widening in Cabarrus County? I drive it all week and I must say they work constantly on it. Saturdays and even overnight. I just hope it is finished ASAP!! The traffic jams are all the time.

[dubone]

http://www.ncdot.gov/projects/CharlotteOuterLoop/

(Scroll to lowest section for 85).

It'll be done around November 2013.