Traffic Congestion and Highway Construction

[PlazaMidwoodGuy]

I agree. What would it take for that to happen?

Well, for starters, it would take splitting off the entire eastern third of North Carolina from the rest of the state so that Down East legislators would no longer be in control of NC. Okay, there may be just a wee bit of sarcasm in that statement, but it's not too far off the mark. Political power in this state has traditionally been centered in the east and this is a pattern that goes back to colonial days. The reasons are varied and, even as a North Carolina native, I don't understand all of them myself. Add to this the fact that NC politics is notoriously split between rural vs. urban counties, and guess which group there are far more of. That's right....rural. Several years ago (I don't remember exactly when -- either late 80s or early 90s) the rural-dominated legislature pushed through an "equity formula" for distributing road money throughout the state. This was a not-so-transparent effort on the part of rural politicians to ensure that we got plenty of wide expressways through the pine forests and tobacco fields of eastern NC, while the cities had to make do with what was left over. Charlotte's explosive growth (and what the rest of the state sees as our constant chest thumping and too-big-for-our-breeches attitude) has only served to make us even less popular among the rural politicians in Raleigh.

Of course it's not always quite as simple as I've laid it out, but that's the short and sweet version. Suffice it to say that eastern NC and its representatives in Raleigh (along with a healthy number of reps from the mountain counties) don't exactly care for Charlotte and/or Mecklenburg County, so getting state money for basics such as roads is always a tough fight.

Edited December 13, 2006 by PlazaMidwoodGuy

[BobbyRobert]

Well, for starters, it would take splitting off the entire eastern third of North Carolina from the rest of the state so that Down East legislators would no longer be in control of NC. Okay, there may be just a wee bit of sarcasm in that statement, but it's not too far off the mark. Political power in this state has traditionally been centered in the east and this is a pattern that goes back to colonial days. The reasons are varied and, even as a North Carolina native, I don't understand all of them myself. Add to this the fact that NC politics is notoriously split between rural vs. urban counties, and guess which group there are far more of. That's right....rural. Several years ago (I don't remember exactly when -- either late 80s or early 90s) the rural-dominated legislature pushed through an "equity formula" for distributing road money throughout the state. This was a not-so-transparent effort on the part of rural politicians to ensure that we got plenty of wide expressways through the pine forests and tobacco fields of eastern NC, while the cities had to make do with what was left over. Charlotte's explosive growth (and what the rest of the state sees as our constant chest thumping and too-big-for-our-breeches attitude) has only served to make us even less popular among the rural politicians in Raleigh.

Of course it's not always quite as simple as I've laid it out, but that's the short and sweet version. Suffice it to say that eastern NC and its representatives in Raleigh (along with a healthy number of reps from the mountain counties) don't exactly care for Charlotte and/or Mecklenburg County, so getting state money for basics such as roads is always a tough fight.

well said.

[Sabaidee]

Charlotte will now have less influence in the General Assembly, the Speaker of House from Matthews will not seek a 5th term, however there might be hope that a potential candidate for Speaker might come from one of our Mecklenburg delegation.

[e2ksj3]

NCDOT lets street lights burn out, potholes go unpatched, and bottlenecks stay plugged on busy urban roads at the same time as they build massive 6-lane freeways through the pristine mountains and 70mph freeways linking the bustling metropolises of Goldsboro and Wilson that carry (maybe) 2,000 cars per day.

The equity formula needs to be rewritten.

I caught a story on WRAL about Henderson building some kind of loop now. Of course they use the argument that it will somehow miraculously spur development (Article). It's probably doing more harm than anything. The "freeway to nowhere" (new 117 bypass) is hurting some businesses. People who would once stop through Fremont or Pikeville for gas and goods on the old 117 no longer do. The exits aren't really close enough to justify getting off to grab a drink.

This wasteful spending needs to stop. I don't understand how people justify building this stuff, especially seeing how the infrastructure of the urban areas of the state are suffering. Is there any legislation, currently in office now to change the spending formulas, like actually on paper or bill?

Edited December 15, 2006 by e2ksj3

[dubone]

A Henderson loop!

Speechless.

What is wrong with these people?

[AuLukey]

Ok, now they're just talking crazy and I hope our representatives will agree that this is not needed AT ALL. Can we not go by popular vote on things like this? I mean, the vast majority of our state's citizens don't live across the street from Aunt Jemima's farm, but that seems to be where most of the voting is coming from.

[New Name]

Hi UP - (I've been lurking on this website obsessively for almost a year...and here is my first post).

Did anyone else see the report on WSOC 9 news last night - Mayor Knox of Cornelius "spearheading" efforts to widen I-77 in the Lake area to alleviate cut-thru traffic on the small streets of the towns effected. Pretty much suggesting that since Fed/State money will not be available for this project any time soon, it will become a priority to fund a widening from Exit 23-36 with private or local money.

I get stuck on 77 north or south generally 2 or 3 times a week. And I do not commute during peak hours. This is just howere construction reasons. But not here. It's just merging and congestion delays. So I wholeheartedly support an increase in MY taxes, to make MY interstate better.

[monsoon]

That road is really bad these days. The traffic flowing through there is like squeezing toothpaste back into the tube. Last I heard there are no funded plans for the forseeable future to do this widening.

[RiverwoodCLT]

We must build freeways down east, so maybe some day, someone will use them.

The urban areas of North Carolina have a hard time to get road improvements from the state.

Look at Independence Blvd. in Charlotte. At the rate they are going at 1 mile about every 8 years, it will take 64 years to construct Independence from Sharon Amity to I-485 in Matthews.

Edited December 20, 2006 by RiverwoodCLT

[dubone]

Wow, if North Meck can pull off a local and private freeway widening, that would be incredible!

I'm guessing a toll will be involved somehow.

[DigitalSky]

We must build freeways down east, so maybe some day, someone will use them.

The urban areas of North Carolina have a hard time to get road improvements from the state.

Look at Independence Blvd. in Charlotte. At the rate they are going at 1 mile about every 8 years, it will take 64 years to construct Independence from Sharon Amity to I-485 in Matthews.

That is way too crazy. The whole NCDOT Jurisdiction thing is messed up.

Wow, if North Meck can pull off a local and private freeway widening, that would be incredible!

I'm guessing a toll will be involved somehow.

Probably, but they really really do need it.

[e2ksj3]

Wow, if North Meck can pull off a local and private freeway widening, that would be incredible!

I'm guessing a toll will be involved somehow.

I'm guessing the same as well, but wouldn't they need special permission to collect tolls on a federal funded road? The citizens of North Meck shouldn't have to fork over any extra dollars. The state gov't and NCDOT need to prioritize spending better.

[monsoon]

It would be possible to turn that portion into a toll road with current federal law. It would have to be done with the purpose of using the funding to widen the road. It would be technically difficult because of the spacing of the exits and the fact this section physically goes right through Lake Norman.

What they 'should' do instead is to make a toll road out of the last section of I-485, and divert the funds from that project to widening I-77N and I-485 in SE CLT.

[New Name]

It would be possible to turn that portion into a toll road with current federal law. It would have to be done with the purpose of using the funding to widen the road. It would be technically difficult because of the spacing of the exits and the fact this section physically goes right through Lake Norman.

What they 'should' do instead is to make a toll road out of the last section of I-485, and divert the funds from that project to widening I-77N and I-485 in SE CLT.

That's a great idea. Two things about a 485 toll:

1. it could help fund itself and a widening of the primary artery interstates.

2. it would solidify the idea that a "beltway" is not meant to be a primary artery. IMO, this is something that has been forgotten since the inception of beltways. they should exist only circulate people off the main arteries (77 or 85) when traveling from the CBD toward their suburbs. beltways should not act as main arteries between suburban cities (ala Atlanta). that's where the sprawl comes from.

so by making the last portion of the beltway toll, it would only make the use of it viable on a limited basis. and we would not become reliant on it.

[dubone]

Earlier in this thread, there was discussion about the news that the expansion of 85 in Cabarrus. Originally, the state selected the project from Speedway Blvd to NC73 to be built within the 7 year construction window by using Garvee bonds to borrow off of future federal and state grants. Then, the draft TIP came out and there were plans to expand that by a few miles, but it still still leave about 6 miles as 2 lanes between the Kannapolis and the widened section in Rowan County.

Now, the most recent draft of the 2007-2013 NCDOT TIP has it laid out as follows:

- The construction work for widening 85 in Cabarrus is back to ending at NC73 with payment in FY2010 (Which I think means it will be built before 2010).

- The extension of the widening has been foregone in order to account for the full remainder of the distance to the 29-601 connector in Rowan, where the widening has already been completed. Now, only the right of way is funded in the 7 year window, however, it seems to be setup for probable funding in 2014.

While it would have been nice to get the sooner widening of 85 all the way past Kannapolis, it is probably better that it is done this way. The main reason is that it was a stretch to get that other part constructed sooner, so it would have likely mean the remainder was left off for a while, now, it is likely that the whole stretch will be widened together as the second phase, so ~2014/5 I85 can be completed all the way past Spencer. Also, I'd bet that the state would coordinate the Yadkin River bridge section that was almost funded a few years ago with the Kannapolis section so that maybe around 2015, we could get remaining sections widened as planned.

If you've driven 85 at times such as Friday afternoons when people are leaving town, you'd know that by the time you are nearing nc73, it is running fairly smoothly. Most of the back-ups are through Poplar Tent and the Kannapolis Parkway.

[ChiefJoJo]

Any word yet, Jo? Thanks for researching this.

On the lighting problem, I'll say that this is an issue with the MPO and the city council--albeit not the #1 on the list.

There are two solutions at this point:

1) Have MUMPO prioritize a project that would fund the needed work to completely rewire the system - $6 to 8 million. (Probably not a viable option)

2) Install new solar panel technology which will cost less ($1 - 1.5M) which I think NCDOT can fund thru locally. Downside is they are not as bright, even though they will meet specs.

[PlazaMidwoodGuy]

On the lighting problem, I'll say that this is an issue with the MPO and the city council--albeit not the #1 on the list.

There are two solutions at this point:

1) Have MUMPO prioritize a project that would fund the needed work to completely rewire the system - $6 to 8 million. (Probably not a viable option)

2) Install new solar panel technology which will cost less ($1 - 1.5M) which I think NCDOT can fund thru locally. Downside is they are not as bright, even though they will meet specs.

Thanks for the update, JoJo. I still find it absolutely amazing that in the USA in 2006, a state can't keep its highway lights on. We're talking BASICS here, not high tech luxuries. Charlotte looks like a Third World country at night.

Edited December 29, 2006 by PlazaMidwoodGuy

[Skyline49er]

I can't wait until I-85 is four lanes up to 73. That would ease alot of traffic snarls around the Concord Mills exit. Every night, traffic just backs up with 85 going from 4 lanes to 3 lanes to 2 lanes. Then you got all of the cars coming from 485, and then you have all the cars trying to get to the Mills exit. It is just makes for a mess every night.

[browngeo]

The lighting situation is absolutely absurd. Lights are out all over 277 on every part of town. It's dangerous and absolutely makes Charlotte look like a third world country

[dubone]

Gosh, you guys must never have been to a third world country .

I don't think it makes Charlotte look like a third world country, but I do think it makes our Transportation Department look incompetent.

[PlazaMidwoodGuy]

Gosh, you guys must never have been to a third world country .

I don't think it makes Charlotte look like a third world country, but I do think it makes our Transportation Department look incompetent.

True, I haven't....but I've seen pictures. I've certainly never been to any city in Canada or Europe where entire swaths of urban highways are dark because the lights don't work. For that matter, I've been to basically every large and medium-sized city in the entire USA and haven't seen anything as bad as what the NCDOT has allowed to happen on Charlotte's state highways.

[browngeo]

I am drawing a comparison to Detroit where the lights on the highways were always out in the early 90's. Detroit and third world country are somewhat similar...I am from Michigan so I am allowed to hit Detroit hard.....

Install Solar immediatley !! We have over 220 days of Sunshine per year right ?

[Otto]

We must build freeways down east, so maybe some day, someone will use them.

The urban areas of North Carolina have a hard time to get road improvements from the state.

Look at Independence Blvd. in Charlotte. At the rate they are going at 1 mile about every 8 years, it will take 64 years to construct Independence from Sharon Amity to I-485 in Matthews.

Urban areas in NC definitely get their share of transportation dollars. Just look at the Charlotte Light Rail System. There are two large funding sources: Federal Highway Administration and Federal Transit Administration. The question is are the localities doing enough to tap into both sources.

As a highway planner, one of the biggest problems that I see is once we start planning, the local governments are already changing zoning in proposed areas. The idea of a new transporation facility coming sparks development. Traffic forecast for transportation projects are out to 2030. At the rate that new developments pop-up, by the time the facility is built, the design volume surpassed or close to it. Charlotte is a victim of its own success.

No city can build its way (with roads alone) out of congestion. The light rail project is a start....but there must be a change or mindset of citizens as well. The solution is not making more lanes, it's reducing the number of rubber tires on the road. Citizens must also make a decision to change their lifestyles. We live in Raleigh, near Knightdale....when we can, I drive my wife at 6AM to Wake Med to catch a CAT Bus downtown so that she can take $20M. So, I know that as costs of individual projects increase, the volume of projects built will decrease. In order for Charlotte to not choke on traffic, people are going to have to make sacrifices in where they live or how they commute. If you want to live in Cornelius, support the commuter rail project, take the 77X bus, move, or stop complaining. Regardless of whether the NCDOT equity formula changes, there will never be enough highway $$s to go around.....no one can afford to widen Independence Blvd, widen I-77 in North Meck and south of downtown, widen I-85 in Cabarrus and Rowan, widen I-485, build the Monroe Bypass, Gaston E-W connector, fix the Catawba Ave interchange in Cornelius, and fix all the interstate lighting in Mecklenburg County at the same time.

Support your local transit initiatives....you must have balance.

Edited December 30, 2006 by Otto

[monsoon]

The question isn't federal highway money as much as it is state highway money. NC is one of the very few states where the state DOT builds all highways. As a result the state builds an excessive amount of highways to nowhere in this state and the cities are left with inadequate roads. I agree with you that you can't pave your way out of congestion, but we are talking about roads that are dangerous because of lack of maintenance.

[dubone]

Thanks, Otto, for the comprehensive response. I do agree with Metro that there is still an inequity in the state formula and DOT Board, favoring the Eastern part of the state. But I also agree that the Charlotte metro has a social, development, and zoning problem that is leading to much higher vehicle-miles traveled and associated congestion.

People tend to move here from suburbs of larger northeastern and Great Lakes cities, where they continue their suburban lifestyle, but get to do it a little closer in. However, with the shear numbers moving here, it is recreating the negative aspects of the cities they moved away from. Sadly, I'm not sure Charlotte has ever viewed itself as potentially becoming the size of some of those large cities, so we don't plan much accordingly.

In part, the costs come from attempting to expand our road system after all the suburban, low-connectivity development. We are also building it in an era of extreme safety guidelines that aren't appropriate for urban freeways that will likely end up with a 55 or 60 mph limit anyway. So all our projects end up costing a huge amount of money.

There was an interesting article in the CBJ this weekend talking about the roadway funding issue. Basically it is saying that it is an unfair comparison to compare NC's high gas tax to that of other states, as in other states, localities do more to contribute to the transportation infrastructure. I think I am thoroughly convinced that the only way for Charlotte to even come close in meeting its infrastructure needs over the coming decades is to enact a local tax funded by growth to pay for the new roads.

The idea is to let the state's limited resources focus on the highest priority and highest cost projects, allowing them to be completed faster. Then local resources could focus on the rest, using more efficient and effective local prioritization, management, and design standards. The idea is that the local government can allow for more urban elements like off-peak street parking, coordination with streetscape projects, urban street lighting, and being timed with nearby development. The state has so much on its plate there would be no way to do much of those things necessary in urban areas.

I think we will be much more pleased with the resulting transportation progress if more of it were funded and executed locally. We also wouldn't get as much of a disconnect between local zoning and transportation as the same council that does the zoning would also have to fund most of the transportation associated to that. We'd end up, most likely, with more commitment to connectivity and reduction in VMT once the city budget is directly impacted by it.