Traffic Congestion and Highway Construction

[cinco]

well, i would like to see a moritorium on certin types of development - right off of 77. big box, super centers, mall, and lifestyle centers that are located "on top" of exit & on ramps to hwys are a huge reason for the gridlock that occurs here. this applies for many areas in the metro - not just the lake norman area. there should be restrictions on this type of ill thought development.

as for huntersville, cornelius, and davidson.... it seems to me that each of these cities has split personalities (davidson, not as much). what i mean is, there is huntersville left of 77 and huntersville right... same for cornelius. i am a little more familiar with these 2 communities' east of 77. here you find the old parts of town... which don't seem as marred by development. i would give this side pretty high marks for it's dealing with fast growth.

west of 77 - of these 2 towns is quite a different story. i personally don't see any difference in the type of suburban development going on here as opposed to what you see happening everywhere else. with the exclusion of birkdale village, which seems to be proving successful in it's form and function.

also, this area has the lake... and i used to think of this as a plus, in opposing sprawl - as it's a natural schism. but, now it seems as the flood gates of development have opened b/c landowners and the cities can no longer deny the desire of the lake's appeal. to me, the scariest thing about MC's above photo is... the future.

metro, you know this area far better than i do... and i hope these areas do have strict restrictions on new growth... they are going to need them.

btw, i do support and have always envisioned commuter rail for this area... ever since i attended davidson soccer camps.

of course, i used to envision the same thing for waxhaw... until i found out those tracks were only going to take you to monroe.

Edited January 16, 2007 by cinco

[nowensone]

It seems to me [as a novice] that the quality of development is secondary in the case of the communities in NW Mecklenburg. Putting big box in it's place, requiring more dense development to combat sprawl, retail close to homes, etc. doesn't fix the problem that many people live in these communities but work in Charlotte. Unless the residents also work in Huntersville, Cornelius and Davidson, it would seem the problem persists. And of course in that scenario CLT loses out to these places. So serious transit initiatives (rail?) and other life style changes seem required to get the best of both of worlds here, but don't seem likely to happen. Is that an accurate synopsis?

[Miesian Corners]

It's my understanding that the large tracts of land that are undeveloped in Huntersville are there not because of anything the town has done, but by what Mecklenburg and the state mandated due to water quality in Mountain Island Lake (Charlotte's water supply). Further, a good percentage of undeveloped real estate in H'ville is due to some land holders of large tracts (dealt with them on H'ville's Beatties Ford/Mt Holly Huntersville Road small area plan); they are holding out for just the 'right price'.

[Miesian Corners]

you might be right. I'll go get a copy of the report and see what it says.

[Miesian Corners]

Found it. From the first page of the executive summary of the document: "The majority of the Study Area (referring to Beatties Ford/Mt Holly-Huntersville Road area) is located within the Mountain Island Lake Critical Area Watersheds 1 and 2, which prohibit commercial development and limit residential density to one unit per acre".

[Miesian Corners]

ANY area built in a greenfield can be considered "sprawl". Unlike Portland, we don't have urban growth boundaries. Just 15 years ago, Huntersville was a dot on the map, today it's a town of over 30K. That's sprawl. Huntersville exists because of Charlotte, it sprawled because of Charlotte, but rest assured, the majority of the development in the town limits of Huntersville is no less suburban (cul de sacs, sidewalks only on one side of the street--if any, single-entry/exit subdivisions, etc.) than anything found in the region. Granted, the planning staff in town has done a great job in trying to control development, but that is only a recent (past 10 years) occurrence. I'm not trying to bash any of the north Meck towns, but sprawl is sprawl, regardless of whether its new urbanist in nature, or not.

And for the record, the photo is not "photoshopped". It is what my camera could see out an airplane window while turning north. I tried to get all of the lake in one frame.

Edited January 16, 2007 by Miesian Corners

[RiverwoodCLT]

If anyone of you had 500 areas up in north Mecklenburg County, I don't think you would sit on it for the next 30 years and pay taxes on it. Sometimes it is hard to tell someone they can't sell their land for development. It has to come from the cities with a master plan for development and stick with it.

I see it all over North Carolina cities that are growing, that they are out growing the roads, water systems and have over burden schools. Part of the problem is the State of NC trying to get new business here, that bring jobs that add to these problem. You have families with children, that needs schools, shopping centers, more roads and expanded water systems and most of the time no money is there to pay for it.

We have towns that don

Edited January 16, 2007 by metro.m

[uptownliving]

I would just like to point out that the 3 North Meck towns are heavily subsidizing an industrial business park over by the Huntersville Aquatic Center. They are doing this because they feel that their property tax roles have too much residential on them and they needed more business property tax to balance them out and remain financially healthy. The 3 towns are doing this becasue they didn't want to become a bedroom community that is mainly residential. So far at least one tenet has taken the tax incentive bait and located in the business park.

[Miesian Corners]

I forgot the hyphen. Source: http://www.city-data.com/housing/houses-Hu...h-Carolina.html

And Huntersville's population of 35K includes lots of people under both the legal driving age in North Carolina and the legal employment age.

Here's the breakdown of persons under 18 in 2000 (Source: US Census )

Nursery school, preschool

785

Kindergarten

319

Elementary school (grades 1-8)

3,047

High school (grades 9-12)

1,305

In other terms:

EMPLOYMENT STATUS, Huntersville, NC

Population 16 years and over

18,446

In labor force

13,880

Civilian labor force

13,873

Employed

13,533

Unemployed

340

Not in labor force

4,566

[AuLukey]

I made a trip to see my friend in Chapel Hill and we decided to spend a day in Raleigh this past weekend and I just have to say that I no longer believe that Raleigh gets favoritism when it comes to highway construction and upkeep. In no way is this a shot at the Triangle, but I just feel that the conditions of not only our interstates, but also our roads, is tenfold the quality of the roads there. Many roads I drove around in Raleigh were roughly paved (not even mentioning I-40.) I guess I've just been pampered driving around Charlotte all this time. Maybe I just kept turning on the wrong streets.

On a side note, I never noticed any highway lights that were burnt out up there. This compared to the brand spankin new lights up between 485 and Speedway of which maybe 50% are lit on a regular basis.

[dubone]

That's right. It is a country versus city, Tidewater versus Piedmont, East versus West and not Raleigh versus Charlotte. The fact is that the funding formula screws Raleigh just as much as here. There was a brief appearance that they were being favored a few years ago, as they had a lot of projects being built. However, when the DOT reconciled the books, and decided to underspend in the places that they had overspent the formula for a few years, Raleigh had much more cut than we did.

That is, if our formula budget was a constant 5 (random number) for Raleigh and Charlotte and Bumfuque down east, and the Bumfuque projects were delayed due to environment concerns, they spent 1 in Bumfuque, freeing up 4 to add to Raleigh and Charlotte. So they spent 1 in Bumfuque, 6 in Charlotte and 8 in Raleigh. But then DOT forced the numbers to go back to an average of 5 in a subsequent period by having Raleigh and Charlotte pay back those 4. So then they spent 4 in Charlotte, 2 in Raleigh, and 9 in Bumfuque. Briefly, the appearance was that Raleigh was living large at 8, but in reality, the underlying problem was that the formula required so much to go in Bumfuque in the first place.

(Note: fictional Bumfuque, NC is down east, filled with pig paths, but due to their unbelieveable funding windfall, they have spent lavishly on Bumfuque International Airport, a loop freeway, and freeway connections to Bakwuds, Boone Dock, and Midlanoair)

[ChiefJoJo]

^

The whole lighting thing is bad everywhere across the state but probably not so bad as in Charlotte, since that is really the only place in the state that has so many urban freeways that need them. The Triangle is just now getting it's first lighted freeways, the widened I-85 thru Durham and the widened US 1/64 in Cary. If they could be retrofitted based on the current nighttime traffic, I'm sure I-40 would qualify too, but there isn't enough money to build it--actually the main section of I-40 doesn't even have a concrete barrier. Instead, it's got a skinny steel guardrail that often breaks and has to be repaired constantly as crashes occur.

The Triangle area has gotten a few new projects in recent years that hurt the equity formula balance... the afforementioned I-85 rebuild in Durham and US 1/64 project in Cary, the US 64/264 bypass in eastern Wake, and the I-40 widening in Durham Co, which is falling apart and now has to be completely repaved! (BTW, a HUGE PR disaster for DOT up here). I think the deal is those projects were built with equity money that wasn't able to be spent in eastern NC, so they "borrowed: the funds to build projects in the Triangle and elsewhere (if you have the $ ready, you try to build what projects are ready to go), but when the equity across the state was rebalanced, it showed the Triangle and Charlotte had overspent, so the formula had to be recalculated such that the eastern NC counties could be paid back for what they had not built. The big problem is that there are several projects in E NC that may never be built due to environmental concerns (wetlands & streams are a ***MUCH*** greater issue there than the piedmont) and there in lies the problem... when an area has money, but cannot spend it, what do you do? The money is spent elsewhere, but it HAS to be repaid.

The whole funding issue is definitely urban v rural, and I think the legislature will be discussing these issues this session. I seriously doubt that the equity formula will be changed (Marc Basnight--State Senate Pro Tem Leader and probably the most powerful man in the state from Dare Co-- is too powerful to let the cash cow go). The ticket will be local funding options for counties that vote for it (like the 1/2 cent sales tax for transit). The GA may vote to grant counties the power to levy sales taxes, real estate transfer fees, and/or impact fees to fund local projects (and maybe schools too). I am told there is a lot of momentum on this, but only time will tell. It is probably good that Joe Hackney (Dem of Chapel Hill) was elected the Speaker of the house since I imagine he will be simpathetic to urban issues... although i always wondered why Jim Black (D-Matthews) never used his power to do anything for urban transportation while he was speaker.

[RiverwoodCLT]

I think Joe Hackney heart will be in the piedmont part of NC. All large urban areas in NC have traffic problems and it will have to be address in the future. Most all growth is in these areas, not in the rural areas. The longer we wait, the more it will cost.

[JerseyBoy]

I'm sure I-40 would qualify too, but there isn't enough money to build it--actually the main section of I-40 doesn't even have a concrete barrier. Instead, it's got a skinny steel guardrail that often breaks and has to be repaired constantly as crashes occur.

Always wondered why they never did replace that thing. I've driven many times to Raleigh and it looks like bumper cars have hit it constantly. It can't cost that much just to put a concrete median there can it, maybe $5 million max?

[ChiefJoJo]

Always wondered why they never did replace that thing. I've driven many times to Raleigh and it looks like bumper cars have hit it constantly. It can't cost that much just to put a concrete median there can it, maybe $5 million max?

That stretch was widened a few years ago and I think DOT sort of "shoehorned" something in there on the cheap that would satisfy RTPers who I'm sure were complaining about the traffic--not a full-fledged project (no bridge widening, no barrier or lighting, etc), but good enough to get it to 8 lanes.

[moving uptown]

This article -

http://www.charlotte.com/mld/charlotte/news/16619109.htm

discusses alot of what has been said on these boards about how charlotte gets the shaft in state road funds

[RiverwoodCLT]

[AuLukey]

I have to agree in part, but I'd rather see the state recognize the importance of population needs. If an area containing a million people, roads are more expensive to maintain, if taxes in said metro are used elsewhere, how will the needed improvements been finished? Exactly how you've said, the people of that metro, city, or county must fork over the extra cash. While maintenance on roads between metros and towns is vital, the largest portion of roads that need improvements are those roads in populated areas.

I say that rather than the city having to pay for it's own roads, the current gasoline tax that the state charges should be cut in half, one half to the city in which the tax was collected and the other half to a combined state road fund. This way, roads in the state outside of city limits still are able to be maintained while the much more critical maintenance of city roads is handled by the city or township they are in.

I'm sure that in metros such as Charlotte, the Triad, and the Triangle an increase in gasoline tax is a given regardless of how state taxes are divided mostly because roads are simply much more expensive to build and maintain within a densely (in comparison) populated area. But regardless of this, the level of tax increase within said metros would not be nearly as drastic.

[monsoon]

I have to agree in part, but I'd rather see the state recognize the importance of population needs. ....

"The State" consists of legislators from all 100 NC counties. They collectively decide how the state spends money on things. It is, as it has always been, controlled mostly by members from the very rural counties. Legislators from the urban areas have yet to figure out how to work with each other since in places such as Mecklenburg, the group is divided almost evenly by party.

[ChiefJoJo]

I don't want to sound insensitive, but I don't think that money is a big deal at all and there are much larger issues out there that folks should concentrate their efforts on. As mentioned in the article, $5 or 15M wouldn't buy much of a project in Mecklenburg these days.

The bigger issue is the equity formula, which is how the real money gets distributed... throw in funding crunch at DOT, expanding projects (new ones added all the time), cost increases, and huge traffic growth, and it's not a good situation.

If you care to read, check out this ppt presentation... lots of good info in there explaining how things work, where money comes from, where it goes, etc.

[A2]

I don't want to sound insensitive, but I don't think that money is a big deal at all and there are much larger issues out there that folks should concentrate their efforts on. As mentioned in the article, $5 or 15M wouldn't buy much of a project in Mecklenburg these days.

The bigger issue is the equity formula, which is how the real money gets distributed... throw in funding crunch at DOT, expanding projects (new ones added all the time), cost increases, and huge traffic growth, and it's not a good situation.

If you care to read, check out this ppt presentation... lots of good info in there explaining how things work, where money comes from, where it goes, etc.

I don't know about you guys but I consider $5M a huge amount of money. All I am asking for is some freggin lights. I have wrote everyone I can to address the issue, as it pisses me off above ALL other public saftey concerns in this city.

This city has been in the DARK, (I mean TOTAL DARK) for years. That "so-called" insignificant amount of money could have gone a long ways in funding the lighting of some of the most dangerous roads and intersections in the city, instead it is going to towns that I doubt are even a dot on a road atlas.

At the latest tally, it is going to only take roughly 1,000,000 to retrofit the entire loop of 277 with Solar lights. Why could this not have been done before??? This is an OUTRAGE ! Take into account all of the money that the city has forked over to maintain state roads, and we could have lit the city so bright you could have seen Charlotte from Mars.

I am seriously wondering if taxpayers can not sue the state for shear theft. It is OUR money being used to fund dippy ass projects that go freggin NOWHERE!!!!

I could go on and on...

I have done my part to communicate the concerns of the common citizen taking it up the ass from some dipstick from down East. It is high time we ALL do something more. I am thinking more and more of creating a team of concerned citizens to take back our state from those politicians who have done a miserable job of taking responsibility of their post.

Here is a great example:

Rep. Martha Alexander, D-Mecklenburg, hasn't focused on transportation issues during her eight terms, and said she wasn't aware of the fund until a few weeks ago.

"I'm not sure how widely known that is among representatives as a whole, not just Mecklenburg," she said.

Who hired this lazy person. She has been in office EIGHT TERMS and she did not even know the fund was there!!! R U KDDING ME !!! Who are voting these ingorant people into office! Oh, and I just love how during her eight terms she explains that transportation just hasn't been a focus. WHAT THE &%^$ *#&@* $* !!!! Here we are in one of the fastest growing metros in the US and it just slips your mind to focus on transportation.

What a crock of #$%$!

THIS HAS TO STOP NOW!!!!

A2

(Cheif JoJo I am not ranting at you, as I know you have done more to shed light (pun intended ) on this subject than any. I just get really pissed when I feel as though I am being robbed. Just in case all know, I had to do my part today and cut a check to the FEDS and the State, and I feel all of it is going up in thin air.)

Edited February 6, 2007 by A2

[orulz]

At the latest tally, it is going to only take roughly 1,000,000 to retrofit the entire loop of 277 with Solar lights. Why could this not have been done before??? This is an OUTRAGE !

Back up just one second.

LED lights bright enough and efficient enough to light a freeway have only been comercially available for a VERY limited time (less than a year?). And to be honest, I'm not confident that folks will be very happy with the performance of the solar powered lights, either (they're still not going to be nearly as bright as a standard Sodium Vapour lamp).

Anyway.

[A2]

Back up just one second.

LED lights bright enough and efficient enough to light a freeway have only been comercially available for a VERY limited time (less than a year?). And to be honest, I'm not confident that folks will be very happy with the performance of the solar powered lights, either (they're still not going to be nearly as bright as a standard Sodium Vapour lamp).

Anyway.

My main point is not really about the solar lights (even though I am using it as one of the points for my argument) but instead to point out that for years our lawmakers and representatives have had a fund that they can just empty at whim. All of this at the expense of the very cities who need each and every penny they can get. I highly doubt that Po-Dump, NC needed millions to expand a runway to accomodate their cropduster. Or worse yet, converting empty bldg's into museums that no one will visit. It was just another excuse to waste money on the town that THEY represent.

I am not just griping about "this pot" of money, it is the whole system I am fed up with.

As for the lights, even a million would have helped before the solar lights were proposed. The situation in this city is dire. I have never been to ANY city where there were MILES of Interstate in complete darkness. This is a public saftey issue if anything, and as such needs IMMEDIATE attention, instead we just get more of the same talk that the State is Broke.

I really am not buying it anymore. The State is not broke, the system is.

A2

Edited February 6, 2007 by A2

[Norm2]

Is it not possible to sue the state for a matter such as this? a interste running the through the middle of the city with no lighting is public hazard, and yet out representatives use some of the road money to build a museum instead of lighting our highways. Can we not sue them!? or SOMETHING!?

[PlazaMidwoodGuy]

I gotta say, I'm with ya A2! No doubt politics plays a role in every state when it comes to highway building and maintenance, but NC seems far worse that other states. NCDOT seems to think that lights along interstates are some sort of fluff or luxury ....instead of a BASIC safety issue. For the last few years the excuse has been "we don't have the money." Well, as a lifelong resident of this area, I can tell you that well before there was any budget crisis in Raleigh, the state has been unable and/or unwilling to keep the highway lights up and running in Mecklenburg County. And don't even get me started on the litter issue!