Traffic Congestion and Highway Construction

[jednc]

On 10/23/2017 at 10:59 PM, KJHburg said:

Raleigh Wake County also has the only 2 toll highways in the state that are operating today. The rest of I540 beltway south of Raleigh will all be toll.   Leave RTP going south to Apex and you will be tolled all the way! Even with 77 express lanes open Wake County has more miles of toll roads than Mecklenburg

I hate toll roads but they will be a fact a life everything in this region soon.  First 77 north to Mooresville the express lanes, then the Monroe Bypass all toll road, then the new toll express lanes on 485 from 77 S to US 74 in Matthews.

 

Those toll roads in Raleigh wear a brand new construction though. 77 is a widening project. The road was built under capacity to begin with. Instead of adding what they've needed for decades they've decided to toll the roads instead. Not at all the same thing.

[Third Strike]

I think the US 74 widening project in Charlotte is complete. Seems like all lanes are finally open. Work on converting the bus lanes to HOT lanes should start in 2018, which I would assume will be right after the work on the Hawthorne bridge is complete. The CRTPO is also submitting plans to add another bus/HOT lane to Independence between I-277 and Albemarle Road, but that likely won’t happen for another decade. 

[tozmervo]

16 hours ago, jednc said:

Those toll roads in Raleigh wear a brand new construction though. 77 is a widening project. The road was built under capacity to begin with. Instead of adding what they've needed for decades they've decided to toll the roads instead. Not at all the same thing.

Suggesting that it's been under capacity for decades is a bit of a stretch. In 2000, the population of Cornelius was only 12,000. In 1990 it was a barely 2,500. Its 2016 estimate was 28,515.

I think developing infrastructure using private partnerships is a colossal mistake because private businesses do not have the same values as society. Having said that, free lanes for long distance commutes is also a burden on society and they will just keep clogging up, over and over and over. People can talk all they want about not becoming the next Atlanta, but every free lane on a highway is one step closer to it. They can add lanes to I-40 all day long, but the commute is still going to be trash. At least this way, North Mecklenburg has a prayer of keeping development under control. 

[Spartan]

I agree, but I think all interstate highways should be tolled. We've built so many "free" roads that people think they should always be free. The  up front cost is actually the cheapest part, given that you have to maintain the infrastructure for eternity (or at least until they perfect human teleportation). Now the the interstate system is largely built out, the focus needs to be on the less sexy area of facility maintenance.

[asthasr]

1 hour ago, Spartan said:

I agree, but I think all interstate highways should be tolled. We've built so many "free" roads that people think they should always be free. The  up front cost is actually the cheapest part, given that you have to maintain the infrastructure for eternity (or at least until they perfect human teleportation). Now the the interstate system is largely built out, the focus needs to be on the less sexy area of facility maintenance.

I agree. I actually think that there should be tolls every time you get through an "urban area," so that you'd get tolled as you went out of Mecklenburg toward the south or north on 77, east or west on 74, or northeast/southwest on 85. It might sound crazy, but it's fair: the people who are using the road pay for it.

[jednc]

14 hours ago, tozmervo said:

Suggesting that it's been under capacity for decades is a bit of a stretch. In 2000, the population of Cornelius was only 12,000. In 1990 it was a barely 2,500. Its 2016 estimate was 28,515.

I think developing infrastructure using private partnerships is a colossal mistake because private businesses do not have the same values as society. Having said that, free lanes for long distance commutes is also a burden on society and they will just keep clogging up, over and over and over. People can talk all they want about not becoming the next Atlanta, but every free lane on a highway is one step closer to it. They can add lanes to I-40 all day long, but the commute is still going to be trash. At least this way, North Mecklenburg has a prayer of keeping development under control. 

So, add Huntersville, Davidson, Mooresville, Southern Iredell Co., Unincorporated Northern Meck and then we'll talk. Otherwise, that's nonsense. And, starting in 1990 is almost THIRTY years ago. Try starting TWENTY years ago... which would be decadeS as I said.

Also, I'm talking within the same county. Hardly a long distance commute.

Edited October 27, 2017 by jednc

[Spartan]

I think the large problem is that there is a weird expectation by the public at large that all travel should be congestion free, and that this type of goal is somehow attainable.  

[SgtCampsalot]

Random Highway Question:
What determines the pre-fix number for "intrastate" highways?

I-277: Sure, it's a horseshoe arc off of I-77, but why the 2?

I-485: It intersects with with I-85 and I-77, so what determined the 85? And why the 4?

I-440 in Raleigh: Why the 4?

Is it just kind of a generic rule of thumb to use 2 or 4? I've always wondered.

 

[Popsickle]

4 minutes ago, SgtCampsalot said:

Random Highway Question:
What determines the pre-fix number for "intrastate" highways?

I-277: Sure, it's a horseshoe arc off of I-77, but why the 2?

I-485: It intersects with with I-85 and I-77, so what determined the 85? And why the 4?

I-440 in Raleigh: Why the 4?

Is it just kind of a generic rule of thumb to use 2 or 4? I've always wondered.

 

About 2/3rds of the way down, everything you've ever wanted to know about the job interstate system. 

https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/programadmin/interstate.cfm

[kermit]

3 minutes ago, SgtCampsalot said:

Random Highway Question:
What determines the pre-fix number for "intrastate" highways?

I-277: Sure, it's a horseshoe arc off of I-77, but why the 2?

I-485: It intersects with with I-85 and I-77, so what determined the 85? And why the 4?

I-440 in Raleigh: Why the 4?

Is it just kind of a generic rule of thumb to use 2 or 4? I've always wondered.

 

I dont believe there is any logic behind the 2 or 4, but every interstate needs a unique number and I suspect they start assigning numbers at the lowest possible number.

there is a system to numbering, three digit interstates are assigned an even starting digit (e.g. 277or 485) if its a loop road. Odd starting digits indicate spurs (e.g. 385 in Greenville). For two digit interstates odd numbers (e.g. 85) are assigned to North-South routes and even numbers are assigned to E-W ones. The numbers system for the roads starts in the Southwest (e.g. I-5 runs along the pacific while I-95 runs along the Atlantic coast. I-10 runs along the Southern  border and I-94 is along the Canadian border).

I think this numbering system may have broken down as the system has reached the limits of its initial planning as new interstate links are proposed.

[tozmervo]

1 hour ago, SgtCampsalot said:

Random Highway Question:
What determines the pre-fix number for "intrastate" highways?

I-277: Sure, it's a horseshoe arc off of I-77, but why the 2?

I-485: It intersects with with I-85 and I-77, so what determined the 85? And why the 4?

I-440 in Raleigh: Why the 4?

Is it just kind of a generic rule of thumb to use 2 or 4? I've always wondered.

 

the interstate page on Wikipedia is a good black hole to fall into on a rainy weekend

[southslider]

Even numbers like 2, 4 , and 6 are beltways.  Odd numbers like 1, 3, and 5 are spurs.  Higher numbers are farther out from the CBD as a spur or beltway.

Primary routes end in 0 if east-west, like 40, or 5 if north-south, like 85. Primary routes take priority, such that 85 is more important than 77.

[KJHburg]

All of the above is mostly true but there are exceptions of course like I-540 in northern Raleigh while the rest of this loop will be designated NC 540 since it is all toll.  But I wonder if they knew it would be a loop why not I-640.   I-840 is taken with the Greensboro beltway which is 2/3 done.   And another exception is I-285 which is the designated route of US 52 from Lexington to Winston though it is just a future I-285 now and it will not be a loop.    I am an Interstate wonk  and my favorite outside of the H-1, H-2 and H-3 in Hawaii is of course the new H-201 

Last time I was in Texas I drove on I-2 in the Rio Grande Valley just because LOL 

Actually Charlotte interstate highways pretty much are to form what the guidelines suggest. 

 

[Popsickle]

9 minutes ago, KJHburg said:

All of the above is mostly true but there are exceptions of course like I-540 in northern Raleigh while the rest of this loop will be designated NC 540 since it is all toll.  But I wonder if they knew it would be a loop why not I-640.   I-840 is taken with the Greensboro beltway which is 2/3 done.   And another exception is I-285 which is the designated route of US 52 from Lexington to Winston though it is just a future I-285 now and it will not be a loop.    I am an Interstate wonk  and my favorite outside of the H-1, H-2 and H-3 in Hawaii is of course the new H-201 

Last time I was in Texas I drove on I-2 in the Rio Grande Valley just because LOL 

Actually Charlotte interstate highways pretty much are to form what the guidelines suggest. 

 

Interesting article about the naming of interstate Spurs and loops concerning 540. 

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/traffic/article10288631.html

Edited November 4, 2017 by Popsickle
Forgot the link!

[NCMike1990]

I've been messing around with this satellite imagery and noticed that substantial progress (a lot of tree clearing) has been made on the I-85 widening in Cabarrus County. If someone is ever up that way it would be nice to have some pics so we could see what it all looks like from the ground. NCDOT used to provide updates with pics of construction progress. They did that for the previous I-85 widening project but they don't seem to be doing that for this project. It would be nice to see some updates.

[KJHburg]

34 minutes ago, NCMike1990 said:

I've been messing around with this satellite imagery and noticed that substantial progress (a lot of tree clearing) has been made on the I-85 widening in Cabarrus County. If someone is ever up that way it would be nice to have some pics so we could see what it all looks like from the ground. NCDOT used to provide updates with pics of construction progress. They did that for the previous I-85 widening project but they don't seem to be doing that for this project. It would be nice to see some updates.

I would but it is so it so much construction unless I have a passenger in the car it is too dangerous.  They are completely rebuilding the US 29 and I-85 interchange with multiple bridges loops etc.  It is a real white knuckle ride right now but they are making great progress.  There will be a flyover at exit 60 Dale Earnhardt Blvd too in addition to the bridge currently there.   Once you enter into Cabarrus county from the north on I-85 you will know you are in metro Charlotte because of the way traffic increases and flyovers etc. 

[Squid7085]

On 11/4/2017 at 8:29 PM, KJHburg said:

I would but it is so it so much construction unless I have a passenger in the car it is too dangerous.  They are completely rebuilding the US 29 and I-85 interchange with multiple bridges loops etc.  It is a real white knuckle ride right now but they are making great progress.  There will be a flyover at exit 60 Dale Earnhardt Blvd too in addition to the bridge currently there.   Once you enter into Cabarrus county from the north on I-85 you will know you are in metro Charlotte because of the way traffic increases and flyovers etc. 

I have been driving up to Greensboro for work the last few weeks, and I could not agree more. It didn't help that I drove up last night in the rain/cold/dark. This area will be great when it is done, but it seems like more of a death trap than even 77 right now.

[urbanlover568]

On 11/4/2017 at 6:18 PM, southslider said:

Even numbers like 2, 4 , and 6 are beltways.  Odd numbers like 1, 3, and 5 are spurs.  Higher numbers are farther out from the CBD as a spur or beltway.

Primary routes end in 0 if east-west, like 40, or 5 if north-south, like 85. Primary routes take priority, such that 85 is more important than 77.

There seems to be alot of confusion here.  Route classifications are as follows: Interstate, Primary, Secondary, and Local. Odd Interstate numbers run South to North and even running  West to East. Beltways follow slightly different rules: https://science.howstuffworks.com/engineering/civil/question656.htm

Edited November 18, 2017 by mpretori

[southslider]

5 hours ago, mpretori said:

There seems to be alot of confusion here.  Route classifications are as follows: Interstate, Primary, Secondary, and Local. Odd Interstate numbers run South to North and even running  West to East. Beltways follow slightly different rules: https://science.howstuffworks.com/engineering/civil/question656.htm

Yes, all odd numbers run north-south, but those ending in 5 are intended to be longer, cross-country routes. 75 and 95 achieve this, while 85 falls short. Likewise, all even numbers run east-west, but those ending in 0 were intended to be cross-country interstates. 10, 40, 70, 80, and 90 achieve this. 

[urbanlover568]

14 hours ago, southslider said:

Yes, all odd numbers run north-south, but those ending in 5 are intended to be longer, cross-country routes. 75 and 95 achieve this, while 85 falls short. Likewise, all even numbers run east-west, but those ending in 0 were intended to be cross-country interstates. 10, 40, 70, 80, and 90 achieve this. 

I have working background with the DOT and have not heard this. I77 crosses multiple state lines, as a example. You may be looking too much into the numbering. 

[cltbwimob]

https://www.google.com/amp/amp.wsoctv.com/news/local/nc-congressman-pushes-for-new-interstate-to-connect-charlotte-to-wilmington/649341886

Finally a politician talking about the need for a Charlotte-Wilmington Interstate connection.

There are a few things about this story though which seem a little suspect, and I am not sure if it's just shoddy reporting, a misinformed Congressman, or some combination of the two.  One, the report states the corridor would be redesignated as I-74, but that's impossible since the I-74 route has already been designated by an act of Congress some years ago, and it will not come anywhere near Charlotte.  Seems as if either a spur of I-74 or a new 2-digit interstate such as I-32 or 34 would be a more suitable request.

Second, the story makes it seem as if the effort to get the Interstate is, at least in part, contingent on Monroe's support since it would run right through town as they say. But wouldn't it just instead connect with the bypass that is already under construction?  If so, that goes around town, not through it, and I can't imaging an interstate that does not use that route. Could you imagine an interstate running directly parallel to the Monroe bypass just a few miles away?  Speaking of Monroe, I also don't know why the Mayor Pro Tem made it seem as if Monroe will not support the idea if they think it will be harmful to the town, but I am having a tough time figuring out how it would hurt Monroe.  Are they worried about the bypass effect?  If they are I have news for them...there's already a bypass being built that will have the same effect whether an interstate is built or not.

[SgtCampsalot]

6 hours ago, cltbwimob said:

https://www.google.com/amp/amp.wsoctv.com/news/local/nc-congressman-pushes-for-new-interstate-to-connect-charlotte-to-wilmington/649341886

Finally a politician talking about the need for a Charlotte-Wilmington Interstate connection.

There are a few things about this story though which seem a little suspect, and I am not sure if it's just shoddy reporting, a misinformed Congressman, or some combination of the two.  One, the report states the corridor would be redesignated as I-74, but that's impossible since the I-74 route has already been designated by an act of Congress some years ago, and it will not come anywhere near Charlotte.  Seems as if either a spur of I-74 or a new 2-digit interstate such as I-32 or 34 would be a more suitable request.

Second, the story makes it seem as if the effort to get the Interstate is, at least in part, contingent on Monroe's support since it would run right through town as they say. But wouldn't it just instead connect with the bypass that is already under construction?  If so, that goes around town, not through it, and I can't imaging an interstate that does not use that route. Could you imagine an interstate running directly parallel to the Monroe bypass just a few miles away?  Speaking of Monroe, I also don't know why the Mayor Pro Tem made it seem as if Monroe will not support the idea if they think it will be harmful to the town, but I am having a tough time figuring out how it would hurt Monroe.  Are they worried about the bypass effect?  If they are I have news for them...there's already a bypass being built that will have the same effect whether an interstate is built or not.

Yeah, wasn't it the plan from the beginning to use the Monroe Bypass as part of an eventual I-74 highway? I feel like the NCGC has wanted this for a long time?

[southslider]

10 hours ago, mpretori said:

I have working background with the DOT and have not heard this. I77 crosses multiple state lines, as a example. You may be looking too much into the numbering. 

It's by design. From I-5 on the west coast to I-95 on the east coast, and from I-10 on the south border to I-90 on the north border.

[DCMetroRaleigh]

21 hours ago, cltbwimob said:

https://www.google.com/amp/amp.wsoctv.com/news/local/nc-congressman-pushes-for-new-interstate-to-connect-charlotte-to-wilmington/649341886

Finally a politician talking about the need for a Charlotte-Wilmington Interstate connection.

There are a few things about this story though which seem a little suspect, and I am not sure if it's just shoddy reporting, a misinformed Congressman, or some combination of the two.  One, the report states the corridor would be redesignated as I-74, but that's impossible since the I-74 route has already been designated by an act of Congress some years ago, and it will not come anywhere near Charlotte.  Seems as if either a spur of I-74 or a new 2-digit interstate such as I-32 or 34 would be a more suitable request.

Second, the story makes it seem as if the effort to get the Interstate is, at least in part, contingent on Monroe's support since it would run right through town as they say. But wouldn't it just instead connect with the bypass that is already under construction?  If so, that goes around town, not through it, and I can't imaging an interstate that does not use that route. Could you imagine an interstate running directly parallel to the Monroe bypass just a few miles away?  Speaking of Monroe, I also don't know why the Mayor Pro Tem made it seem as if Monroe will not support the idea if they think it will be harmful to the town, but I am having a tough time figuring out how it would hurt Monroe.  Are they worried about the bypass effect?  If they are I have news for them...there's already a bypass being built that will have the same effect whether an interstate is built or not.

How in the heck did WSOC and/or the Congressman not realize there is already an I-74 in the Triad and beyond? Even if the Congressman was clueless, WSOC should have done basic research and realized there was already an I-74.  Also, why not interstate it all the way to Asheville, since most of U.S. 74 Charlotte to Asheville already is a freeway, with the Shelby bypass under construction.

[Nick2]

Am I the only one not seeing the obvious I-174 designation?