Traffic Congestion and Highway Construction

[nowensone]

I find it interesting that we have someone complaining that the I-85 in Salisbury and the future Providence Rd are both too wide (too much planning!). So either DOT is doing too much or not enough. Just shows you can never please everyone.

Ehh? The point was that it is wasteful of resources more direly needed elsewhere, not that it is too wide. Technically you could call that complaining but that would be silly. If so then I will call you a complainer for saying you wish your tax dollars would stop being used to fund the war in Iraq (for example). Or on more roads instead of transit. And on and on. Get real.

[charlotte_uncc]

I find it interesting that we have someone complaining that the I-85 in Salisbury and the future Providence Rd are both too wide (too much planning!). So either DOT is doing too much or not enough. Just shows you can never please everyone.

I'm not talking about the actual number of lanes. I agree that there need to be more lanes out there. However, making the lanes that wide and expecting people to stick to a 45 mph speed limit is just stupid planning. Is it any wonder why nothing fronts Providence Road after Olde Providence Road? The lane widths are so wide and people go 65+ through the section on a regular basis, not a good urban planning policy for that area of town.

[nyxmike]

I am all for transit, but the roads here are way too small (485 and Independence Boulevard, for example). 3 or 4 lanes on each side is fine, but after that it is just overkill. I read somewhere that after a certain amount of lanes, it is hopeless (to ease congestion).

[Justadude]

Providence Rd is the best example I know that shoots down the misconception that more/wider lanes makes a more pleasant drive. There are very few roads in Charlotte that are more frustrating and boring from a driver's point of view. It's basically an upscale version of Independence until you hit the county line.

[nyxmike]

I noticed on the TIP that I-77 from I-277 to the SC state line is going to be resurfaced with Novachip in FY 07 (which is this year). Does anyone know anything about this? The condition of the road is terrible and hopefully they will resurface the on/off ramps as well.

Edited April 5, 2007 by nyxmike

[New Name]

Here's a question: Do interstate overpass bridges HAVE to be painted millitary green, brown or grey? Where did these colors come from? I imagine how sleek it would look if all the bridges (of course not the concrete parts) were painted black. They would look more elegant, like wrought iron even. I will imagine that when the interstate system was first built, there may have been a surplus of milliarty paint left from WWII...anyone know?

Now I might be crazy, but in my travels I do beleive I have seen this in at least one city. I can't remember where, maybe Lansing Michigan, or maybe Toledo, OH...not sure...I might be crazy too. But it just seems that it would be a pretty sleek look, and would really set aside a city for passers-through.

Edited April 20, 2007 by The Escapists

[RiverwoodCLT]

I see a lot of state survey crews on East Indenpendence Blvd. Is the state getting ready to start construction from Sharon Amity to Vallage Lake?

[Sabaidee]

I see a lot of state survey crews on East Indenpendence Blvd. Is the state getting ready to start construction from Sharon Amity to Vallage Lake?

From the recent TIP it says 2011 or 2010 for construction, but however real estate purchase will start this year or next year.

[ChiefJoJo]

From the recent TIP it says 2011 or 2010 for construction, but however real estate purchase will start this year or next year.

They may be gathering survey data for the design/layout of the roadway. When Independence is ready for construction, I'm sure you'll know it. It's going to be one hell of an expensive construction project (~$177M) for that short 1.4 mile segment. I'm quite certain it will end up being a new record for priciest project per mile in the history of NC. Hmmm, maybe transit isn't such a bad idea after all.

[Mobuchu]

Sorry for the one-liner....

But, WOW, $177M for 1.4 miles. Amazing

[Neo]

Sorry for the one-liner....

But, WOW, $177M for 1.4 miles. Amazing

No doubt, that is roughly $12.64 million per 1/10 mile meaning that if this were the length of the light rail line it would end up being over $1.2 billion. Even with all of the price increases for the LRT project it doesn't hold much of a candle compared to the cost of some of the road projects in the area. Now who wants to bet that this project will end up costing more than $177 million in the end?

[uptownliving]

The price of Independence Blvd is something that you will hear consistently in MTC meetings...where they point out the per mile cost of expanding that road is almost double the cost of the South LRT and that it adds less capacity than the LRT. I have heard that mentioned at least 10 times at MTC meetings...but the media has never picked up that fact. They continue down their usual path of how over budget the South LRT line is and how controversial it is...etc.etc.

I guess that should not come as a surprise considering that most of their money comes fom Car Dealers.

Edited April 25, 2007 by uptownliving

[cinco]

The price of Independence Blvd is something that you will hear consistently in MTC meetings...where they point out the per mile cost of expanding that road is almost double the cost of the South LRT and that it adds less capacity than the LRT. I have heard that mentioned at least 10 times at MTC meetings...

good. we need more pro-transit talking points... unfortunately, thats what most people base their opinion from - consise, tid-bits of information and mis-information. it's alarming @ how mis-informed we are, overall. there are so many things to blame for this, and in this case - the media has done more harm than good, @ providing the facts.

the price of independence blvd is an incredible price for something that will only enhance our problems in the long run.

[dubone]

This stretch of road as well as 85 in part of Cabarrus County were accelerated using GARVEE bonds. They are paid for in the TIP in 5 years, but they then borrow against that funding to get the cash sooner. I was under the impression that it wouldn't be for another year or two, though, but maybe they had enough engineering already done that it didn't have to wait so long.

[ChiefJoJo]

This stretch of road as well as 85 in part of Cabarrus County were accelerated using GARVEE bonds. They are paid for in the TIP in 5 years, but they then borrow against that funding to get the cash sooner. I was under the impression that it wouldn't be for another year or two, though, but maybe they had enough engineering already done that it didn't have to wait so long.

The GARVEE bonds borrow against future federal dollars (a loan from the feds, essentially) and are repaid over 12 years. In order to get the money approved, the projects (Independence and 85) must be ready for construction in late 2009/early 2010. That is about the time when you would see crews actually turning dirt. Both projects will be done design build style, which is more expansive than traditional bidding, but projects can be completed faster. Also, note that a very significant part of the cost for Independence are the projected right-of-way costs, which will be over $60M. That is only for purchasing the land!

The price of Independence Blvd is something that you will hear consistently in MTC meetings...where they point out the per mile cost of expanding that road is almost double the cost of the South LRT and that it adds less capacity than the LRT.

You're right and they should keep saying that because it's reality. Maybe one day, someone will listen. Before it's all over, Independence will probably be in the $billions to complete if you consider the transit and highway components out to 485/Matthews. In addition to showing us that it's much pricier per mile than light rail, the Independence project underscores the need for a significant new revenue source to build roadway projects. Ive heard rumblings that the city council is going to recommend a 1 cent local tax for roads (& maybe schools). Hopefully the General Assembly will grant Meck and other counties that authority in this session.

[monsoon]

^You know, if we had a forward thinking government, they would get together with the state, abandon further plans to turn Independence into an express way, and instead find a way re-direct this money (maybe by offsets) to build rail to the east a lot faster instead.

[Raintree21]

http://www.charlotte.com/217/story/103516.html

The next section of I-485 is "possibly" going to be opened on May 15 according to DOT. How many times have we heard a completion date? At least they are ONLY $5 million over budget this time. Wonder if this will free up some of the congestion on Highway 16 and some of the other backroads that people use? It's only 3.5 miles but every little bit helps.

[nyxmike]

Just in case anyone was wondering, I got an email back from NCDOT and they are going to re-pave I-77 from exit 9 to the S.C. state line starting this summer and the work should end in the fall. When I commented about the lighting (or lack of) issue on I-77, they responded saying "the lighting issue is being finalized (as to the fix)" - I suppose they are going to fix the lights on I-77, unless they misunderstood me and meant I-277. They also mentioned that the landscaping along this stretch should be addressed once their new maintenance contract goes into effect on July 1st. The re-paving alone should help 'freshen up" that stretch of I-77.

[A2]

Just in case anyone was wondering, I got an email back from NCDOT and they are going to re-pave I-77 from exit 9 to the S.C. state line starting this summer and the work should end in the fall. When I commented about the lighting (or lack of) issue on I-77, they responded saying "the lighting issue is being finalized (as to the fix)" - I suppose they are going to fix the lights on I-77, unless they misunderstood me and meant I-277. They also mentioned that the landscaping along this stretch should be addressed once their new maintenance contract goes into effect on July 1st. The re-paving alone should help 'freshen up" that stretch of I-77.

While they are at it, why not add a lane on each side to actually make this a suitable stretch of Intersate for a city Charlotte's size.

Hell, Rock Hill is 8 lanes throughout their entire city limts, but CLT decides they can live with 6. Gimme a break NCDOT !!!

(I have never been anywhere else in the US where an Interstate actually gets wider as you leave the metro )

A2

Edited April 30, 2007 by A2

[Sabaidee]

I guess I will avoid I-77 this summer, I know that repaving project is going to cause major traffic delays.

[queensguy06]

I found an article on Yahoo News about a fuel truck exploding near San Fran's Oakland Bay Bridge causing the collapse of the freeway. The article explains that it is at a heavily traveled interchange that will cripple the city's roadway network. Arnold is even authorizing funding to allow the transit system (rail, ferry, bus) to operate for free tomorrow.

This will be really interesting to see in what ways this will affect the city as a whole, and how the city is able to get it's transportation network back on it's feet. It also got me thinking about how Charlotte would be affected if something similar happened hear. Charlotte is obviously much smaller than San Francisco and doesn't have nearly the same congestion, but there would definitely be a strain on the road network if say I-77 was shut down right outside the city. And with the sluggish pace Charlotte has maintained on mass transit this will only become a more serious threat in the future. So I put the question to everyone else, how would this affect Charlotte now? What if it happened in ten or fifteen years?

[nyxmike]

I know the Long Island Expressway gets smaller once you get into Queens (since the HOV land ends there) and gets wider once you get into the suburbs (since the HOV lane begins there), mostly because there is no room to widen it within the city limits. I don't really understand why they widened I-77 to eight lanes in York County - it just promotes more sprawl while it creates a bigger headache on I-77 in NC. They could of made it six lanes wide - I know in NY most highways are no wider than six to eight lanes and I find traffic to move there better than Atlanta (but I guess that is an unfair comparison mostly due NY having a larger and more heavily used transit system).

[Raintree21]

[quote name='queensguy06' date='Apr 30 2007, 01:03 AM' post='761248'

This will be really interesting to see in what ways this will affect the city as a whole, and how the city is able to get it's transportation network back on it's feet. It also got me thinking about how Charlotte would be affected if something similar happened hear. Charlotte is obviously much smaller than San Francisco and doesn't have nearly the same congestion, but there would definitely be a strain on the road network if say I-77 was shut down right outside the city. And with the sluggish pace Charlotte has maintained on mass transit this will only become a more serious threat in the future. So I put the question to everyone else, how would this affect Charlotte now? What if it happened in ten or fifteen years?

[Otto]

While they are at it, why not add a lane on each side to actually make this a suitable stretch of Intersate for a city Charlotte's size.

Hell, Rock Hill is 8 lanes throughout their entire city limts, but CLT decides they can live with 6. Gimme a break NCDOT !!!

(I have never been anywhere else in the US where an Interstate actually gets wider as you leave the metro )

A2

Widening I-77 in south Charlotte sounds like a great idea and seems to be relatively simple. However, next time anyone drives down I-77 from I-485 to I-277, take a hard look at all of the bridges that cross over I-77. I particular, take a look at how much room is available from the concrete median barrier to the bridge embankment. For eight lanes (4 in each direction), you need 48' of travel way in each direction (12' lanes), 12' of outside shoulder, and currently based off of current design standards 11' of inside shoulder (I-85 north of NC 49 connector has a total median width of 22'). So, you need approximately 142 of clearance under each bridge to accommodate the roadway. This would result in the total replacement of atleast 8 bridge structures. With the replacement of those bridges, in order to keep traffic moving at those bridge locations, you will have to install temporary bridge structures. With the longer clearances for those bridges due to the additional lanes on I-77, you will have to use larger beams.....which will raise the elevation of the roadways crossing over I-77...which means that improvements will have to be made along the roads crossing over I-77 so that existing grade (slope) will meet the new grade and elevation of the raised roadway. At the interchanges, ramps will have to be reconstructed to tie into the widened I-77 and to the new elevation of the roads that had to be raised to meet the new elevation because of the larger beam due to the longer needed spans due to the widened I-77. Culverts will have to be extended as well due to streams crossing under I-77. Also, there are areas where neighborhoods abut I-77.....possible noise impacts and may necessitate constructing noise walls. Also, the existing pavement on I-77 may have to be replaced. Not sure when it was repaved, but you would want the life off all the pavement to be the same. Don't want to have mess up traffic to construct new lanes and then have to mess up pavement a few years later to repave the old.

Basically, it is definitely not an impossible project. Overall, it a fairly simple project. However, it would definitely be a costly project.....and with I-77 competing with other Charlotte area projects....you're priority project may not be the priority of an I-85 commuter from Concord or an Independence Blvd commuter from Monroe or an I-77 commuter from Mooresville or MUMPO's for that matter.

[ChiefJoJo]

I-77 in south Charlotte would likely be an Independence-like rebuild--actually worse. The long range plan is for 8-10 lanes *plus* HOV lanes from I-85 south to 485. As Otto said, it's a total rebuild that would wipe out everything within ~50 feet on both sides including most of the bridges. It's easily a $1-1.5B project (and rising) to build the entire length to 485 at the SC line. We are a LONG WAY from that happening at the current time.

In the short term, planners think that there will be some relief on I-77 when 485 is completed up to I-77 north, near Huntersville. That will direct long distance, regional through and truck traffic onto 485, providing a full western bypass of Charlotte. We saw this exact thing occur when southern 485 was completed from Independence over to I-85 near Wilkinson. After that leg was complete, about 10-15k cars were diverted from Independence over to 485.

As we've discussed before, eventually, local development will probably eat up all the benefits of 485 as an interstate bypass (as we've seen on the southern leg... Ballantyne, etc) and we'll be right back to square one in 10-15 years... but I digress.