Traffic Congestion and Highway Construction

[KJHburg]

Problem  is a cap over a freeway costs a LOT of money the one referenced the stitch in Atlanta estimated cost $452,000,000.   Think how many parks and miles of greenways that could build in this city.  I just think for the foreseeable future it is not realistic from a cost perspective.  

https://atlanta.curbed.com/2019/3/1/18246246/central-atlanta-progress-stitch-downtown-connector

[A2.]

2 hours ago, KJHburg said:

Problem  is a cap over a freeway costs a LOT of money the one referenced the stitch in Atlanta estimated cost $452,000,000.   Think how many parks and miles of greenways that could build in this city.  I just think for the foreseeable future it is not realistic from a cost perspective.  

https://atlanta.curbed.com/2019/3/1/18246246/central-atlanta-progress-stitch-downtown-connector

I totally agree. I think I’m just dreaming about the “what if”, not that it would be realistic.  Even so, the cost of $400M+ would be for the Stitch and not the three to four blocks of capping 277, which would be considerably less. Still I know it’s a stretch to even think it could happen even for a third of the cost. I do remember the idea being kicked around in some of the center city vision plans way back when, but I’m sure those aspirations have died with the realities of costs.

Here is the link to the 2020 plan, which did call for “Capping” a good portion of 277 (check out the drawings in the article). So I know I’m not alone in the idea of creating a connection between Uptown and SE with a Cap for green space and smaller development around the cap.

https://www.charlottecentercity.org/center-city-initiatives-2/plans/2020-vision-plan/

But just in case no one is interested in the link, I’ve circled the proposed Cap from the diagram in the above article. (See attached photo below)

On a somewhat related note, 277 has been a big help in creating the density we do have. It has, by default, created the QC we know today, with respect to high rise development. While that is quickly changing, by jumping containment and moving into Southend, I believe without it, Charlotte could have been a little more splotchy in its urban core. 

That said, now that the urban core is well defined, I would eliminate 277 if the funding was there (and I know it isn’t). 

Edited August 19, 2019 by A2.

[A2.]

Check out this recent article, with the rendering of a cap. If only! 

 

https://ui.uncc.edu/story/charlotte-planning-new-vision-center-city-2040

 

 

Edited August 19, 2019 by A2.

[Nathan2]

Capping the 74 independence section from uptown to Bojangles coliseum would be a perfect spot to create the massive urban park that Charlotte is missing. Yes, it wouldn't add development money opportunities like south end but Charlotte desperately needs more open park space.  Imagine having a bike commuting route through the park that wouldn't have to use any roads. This would also help re connect Elizabeth and Plaza. Part of the highway already seems to be lower than the surrounding area. Just a dream. 

Edited August 19, 2019 by Nathan2

[A2.]

22 minutes ago, Nathan2 said:

The 74 independence section from uptown to Bojangles coliseum would be a perfect spot to create the massive urban park that Charlotte is missing. Yes, it wouldn't add development money opportunities like south end but Charlotte desperately needs more open park space.  Imagine having a bike commuting route through the park that wouldn't have to use any roads. This would also help re connect Elizabeth and Plaza. Part of the highway already seems to be lower than the surrounding area. Just a dream. 

I would be on board with that idea. I think the common theme is more green space and connectivity. While initially expensive, creating more green space and connectivity pays dividends long after we’re dead and gone. Pay it forward and build it now, before it’s too late. It will never get cheaper, and there will always be reasons to not build these things. But I promise you this, the more we invest in visionary projects like caps with parks, the more investment we will see flood into our city. Companies are definitely about talent pool and tax incentives, but one thing that is right there at the top of the list is quality of life. We can be visionary’s or we can die by our excuses to just pave more roadways into a sprawling Hell hole. The choice is ours. It’s expensive to build interstates and widen them to becoming mega concrete ribbons ripping up the country side. Why not spend the money on amping up our developmental plan in a sensible and environmentally friendly way. TOD, more green space, and yes, mega money Caps would do that. 

ps—-the more I travel throughout the world, the more I appreciate leaving our natural area natural. The sunbelt cities are great examples of how to destroy natural habitats. I could name city after city that has needlessly built 20 plus miles away (scratch that, 40+ miles away)  from their core. It’s created massive traffic, and is aesthetically ugly. The beautiful cities embrace density and focus on the very thing that we say cost to much. The truth is it costs us all much more than we will ever know to not do the things we believe in. 

A2 

Edited August 19, 2019 by A2.

[Matthew.Brendan]

or the old Post Office in Chicago

 

[A2.]

27 minutes ago, Matthew.Brendan said:

or the old Post Office in Chicago

 

Nice find MB. Think of something that scale “bridging the gap” between SE and Uptown, with a park and heck throw in a shopping/entertainment district! 

I am officially starting a go fund me page for THE QC CAP! Lol

Edited August 19, 2019 by A2.

[allthingsplanes]

I'll never forget about 10-12 years ago I attended a conference in Boston at the convention center.  I was surprised to find I-90 running directly beneath a huge complex, including the convention center, Copley Place mall, the Prudential Center, and several hotels.  Reading up on it the air rights are available over much of that highway in order to reconnect parts of the city that were cut off by the highway...

[tozmervo]

22 minutes ago, allthingsplanes said:

I'll never forget about 10-12 years ago I attended a conference in Boston at the convention center.  I was surprised to find I-90 running directly beneath a huge complex, including the convention center, Copley Place mall, the Prudential Center, and several hotels.  Reading up on it the air rights are available over much of that highway in order to reconnect parts of the city that were cut off by the highway...

When this city seems unable to emotionally deal with Hawthorne Bridge being closed for 3 years, I can't fathom a big-dig style project that would bury or otherwise do-over 277. 

[A2.]

7 minutes ago, tozmervo said:

When this city seems unable to emotionally deal with Hawthorne Bridge being closed for 3 years, I can't fathom a big-dig style project that would bury or otherwise do-over 277. 

Lol, right!?

[easzman]

28 minutes ago, tozmervo said:

When this city seems unable to emotionally deal with Hawthorne Bridge being closed for 3 years, I can't fathom a big-dig style project that would bury or otherwise do-over 277. 

The issue isn't with Hawthorne Bridge being closed but rather how the project has been so problematic.  I'm all for just permanently closing off 277 on the south side of uptown.

[videtur quam contuor]

That boat on the Chicago River is an architecture cruise and I highly recommend it. As with any city, a view from water provides a different and always better sense of the place. In Chicago the river cruise also offers the experience of the great American architecture period and should not be missed.

 

[Madison Parkitect]

2 hours ago, allthingsplanes said:

I'll never forget about 10-12 years ago I attended a conference in Boston at the convention center.  I was surprised to find I-90 running directly beneath a huge complex, including the convention center, Copley Place mall, the Prudential Center, and several hotels.  Reading up on it the air rights are available over much of that highway in order to reconnect parts of the city that were cut off by the highway...

Seattle does the same thing with part of 5. It goes underneath the Convention Center and a park.

[tozmervo]

3 hours ago, easzman said:

The issue isn't with Hawthorne Bridge being closed but rather how the project has been so problematic.  I'm all for just permanently closing off 277 on the south side of uptown.

The trap is thinking that any project of this size would go smoothly. The kind of monster project we're discussing WILL be problematic, it WILL go over budget, it WILL take longer than expected. 

[urbanlover568]

On 7/18/2019 at 7:07 PM, mpretori said:

BREAKING!

 

Board OKs $47M To Convert I-77 Shoulders To Rush-Hour Lanes

https://www.wfae.org/post/board-oks-47m-convert-i-77-shoulders-rush-hour-lanes#stream/0

 

Cintra loses, citizens of Mooresville and Huntersville WINS. 

Followup. 

Drove on a interstate yesterday here in Seattle with toll and shoulder lanes. Trust me, not apocalyptic like some think it is.  It drastically helped with traffic.  Passenger took this photo. 

[CarolinaDaydreamin]

 

On 8/19/2019 at 1:26 PM, easzman said:

I'm all for just permanently closing off 277 on the south side of uptown.

I am too. Honestly think this is a reasonable idea with a replacement at grade 4 lane road, light rail paid for by sold off DOT right of way land. 

[thenewkage95]

I'm all for just permanently closing off 277 on the south side of uptown.

How would that be beneficial in any way???


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[southslider]

^It'd be really beneficial to Silver Line to have closer access to Uptown employment and even Metropolitan, plus the reuse of all the bridges to grade-separate traffic. And since Silver Line is a lot skinnier than the Belk Freeway, you'd even have space left for a parallel greenway linking Cross-Charlotte and Rail Trails. 

[thenewkage95]

^It'd be really beneficial to Silver Line to have closer access to Uptown employment and even Metropolitan, plus the reuse of all the bridges to grade-separate traffic. And since Silver Line is a lot skinnier than the Belk Freeway, you'd even have space left for a parallel greenway linking Cross-Charlotte and Rail Trails. 

I see where you’re coming from, but it’s completely impractical. Belk Freeway is a major thoroughfare providing access to 77, Freedom Drive, and Wilkinson Blvd. I’m all in support of the Silver Line, but getting rid of John Belk will create a traffic nightmare exponentially worse than what we have now. I mean, Brookshire is already suffering as it is. Plus, if you weigh in the amount of money it would all cost, it’s so much more economically effective to leave John Belk the way it is and incorporate the Silver Line and Rail Trails around/across it.


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[tozmervo]

8 minutes ago, thenewkage95 said:

I see where you’re coming from, but it’s completely impractical. Belk Freeway is a major thoroughfare providing access to 77, Freedom Drive, and Wilkinson Blvd. I’m all in support of the Silver Line, but getting rid of John Belk will create a traffic nightmare exponentially worse than what we have now. I mean, Brookshire is already suffering as it is. Plus, if you weigh in the amount of money it would all cost, it’s so much more economically effective to leave John Belk the way it is and incorporate the Silver Line and Rail Trails around/across it.

Between John Belk & Brookshire, I'd actually much rather see Brookshire removed - it's a much more offensive stretch. The city study of the 277 loop did look at options to make them super-boulevards, like you might see in Paris, for example.

[JHart]

22 minutes ago, thenewkage95 said:

I see where you’re coming from, but it’s completely impractical. Belk Freeway is a major thoroughfare providing access to 77, Freedom Drive, and Wilkinson Blvd. I’m all in support of the Silver Line, but getting rid of John Belk will create a traffic nightmare exponentially worse than what we have now. I mean, Brookshire is already suffering as it is. Plus, if you weigh in the amount of money it would all cost, it’s so much more economically effective to leave John Belk the way it is and incorporate the Silver Line and Rail Trails around/across it.


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Completely removing road traffic by removing 277 would hurt car commutes, but changing it into a split 4/6 lane at grade with intersections could definitely help improve commuter traffic. By keeping it a highway the city cannot intelligently control traffic and commuting flows throughout the city. In some places of 277 you have on ramps and off ramps completely uncontrolled within 2 blocks of each other using the same lanes. Main exits off of 277 back up and prevent traffic from flowing both onto and off of the highway. I think it would be better If you let the city incorporate traffic lights into this section instead of trying to just manage the street grid when 277 starts backing up

[thenewkage95]

Completely removing road traffic by removing 277 would hurt car commutes, but changing it into a split 4/6 lane at grade with intersections could definitely help improve commuter traffic. By keeping it a highway the city cannot intelligently control traffic and commuting flows throughout the city. In some places of 277 you have on ramps and off ramps completely uncontrolled within 2 blocks of each other using the same lanes. Main exits off of 277 back up and prevent traffic from flowing both onto and off of the highway. I think it would be better If you let the city incorporate traffic lights into this section instead of trying to just manage the street grid when 277 starts backing up

Oh definitely! 277 has needed a redesign for the past 20 or so years. Flow control is necessary especially where traffic has to merge onto 277 and cut across 3 lanes to quickly make the Brookshire exit. Also, I feel like 77 is mostly to blame for backups at both ends of 277. Not sure if traffic lights are the best solution (but what do I know? I’m not a traffic engineer), but I feel like fundamentally redesigning the number of exits and where they’re placed on 277 is paramount in eliminating the near-gridlock traffic that happens during rush hour.


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[midtownclt]

I doubt we will ever see a freeway cap or removal of Brookshire or John Belk Freeways - the NCDOT is pushing back the I-77South  project to 2029 due to funding issues.

Hell, NC can't keep the freeway lights running consistently.  Nearly of the overhead sign lights  on I-85 in Gaston County are out and the lights on the overhead signs 

in Mecklenburg have been completely removed.  And we all know how bad the issue is with the freeway lights themselves.

Instead of tax breaks and/or tax rebates - we need that money and more  for infrastructure!  Choking the urban areas could lead to a slow-down in growth and perhaps that

is what the legislature of this state wants.

[KJHburg]

Construction has started on the new lanes and express lanes I noticed tonight on I-485 between US 521 and Rea Road.  Concrete barriers are going up eastbound.  This project is officially underway! 

[nicholas]

23 hours ago, midtownclt said:

I doubt we will ever see a freeway cap or removal of Brookshire or John Belk Freeways - the NCDOT is pushing back the I-77South  project to 2029 due to funding issues.

Hell, NC can't keep the freeway lights running consistently.  Nearly of the overhead sign lights  on I-85 in Gaston County are out and the lights on the overhead signs 

in Mecklenburg have been completely removed.  And we all know how bad the issue is with the freeway lights themselves.

Instead of tax breaks and/or tax rebates - we need that money and more  for infrastructure!  Choking the urban areas could lead to a slow-down in growth and perhaps that

is what the legislature of this state wants.

If we continue to build more and more roads, people will continue to find reasons to use whatever new roads are built.  And then in 20 years, we'll look around and see a ton of congestion everywhere, and say that it's time to widen the roads we built 20 year earlier or just build even more roads.  It's an endless cycle.  Not to mention that every new road is yet another road to maintain, clearly we're already having issues keeping 85 lit up around Charlotte and it's only going to get worse as more and more roads are built. 

Also, interstates have their place as effective connections between cities, but they don't need to be running through the heart of our cities.  I mean, I'd argue that we still need complete interstate connections running from Charlotte to Wilmington, as well as from Charlotte to Asheville, but after that we should probably start looking at removing some interstates/limited access roads such as parts of 277 in Charlotte, BUS 40 in WS (instead of throwing millions of dollars at it), BUS 85 in GSO, and parts of 147 in Durham.