Traffic Congestion and Highway Construction

[C_C_Planner]

Does anyone else agree with me when i say:

Charlotte REALLY NEEDS to rename its major thoroughfares that suffer from multiple street names>People navigating a large city shouldn"t have to learn nor cherish the quirks of yesterday>it makes NC look backwards>

Raleigh seems proactive as they renamed "capital blvd" which once was "north blvd" and changed "old wake forest road" to just "wake forest road" obviously this was to lesson confusion with the influx of new residents>

ALSO get rid of the politician"s dedications on the freeway signs> charlotte has different names for each direction of the same highway> looks small_town

i know the story behind the changing street names>>>each neighborhood didn"t want to lose its mailing identity but now it"s an issue for the greater good>

Anyone else agree?

ps have a memorial service for the phrase "uptown" and switch to "downtown"

Uptown is part of Charlotte's heritage dating back to the 1750's when the Indian paths crossed on a hilltop, eventually grew into a hamlet with a courthouse and general stores. Uptown was and still is located on a ridge. The streetcar neighborhoods built to serve Charlotte's central business district traveled "up" town to get there. More recently on September 23, 1974 as recorded by the Charlotte Observer, Mayor John Belk signed a proclamation designating the central business district as "Uptown". If you still doubt the validity of the phrase, take a walk toward Trade and Tryon. From many part of Uptown, you must walk up hill to get there.

[nowensone]

Downtown has slipped into the vernacular enough that it has become the defacto term for a CBD. Given that the term was born from Manhattan's layout, I feel it more correct to say 'uptown' if in fact that is how people referred to it in Charlotte, which my mother at least confirms. 'Uptown' was born of the same reasons as 'downtown' in Manhattan, which is to say it was more of a direction or speedspeak ("you head up town, the courthouse is on the right") the difference being that NYC dominates the world and Charlotte does not. Signs saying "downtown" are simply evidence of that.

I agree that changing signage and other things to 'uptown' would look silly and desperate, but only because people would assume it to be some new and ill-conceived attempt to be different, and not a "preexisting condition".

Edited June 9, 2007 by nowensone

[architect77]

I think it looks more small town to start renaming things because out-of-towners don't like the current labels.

The street names are confusing, but they are part of the local lingo. I know it's more convenient to have one name per road, but each segment has its own neighborhood identity. Wendover Rd. is simply not the same place as Eastway Dr., in more than just the geographic sense. I say keep the multiple names and find a way to improve the signage so that newbies are less (justifiably) confused by the whole system. Same thing with Uptown; transplants have already caused the city to lose that term once, so that it had to be artificially revived. If you want to go downtown, move to Raleigh.

WHY NOT EXTEND ONE OF THE EXISTING NAMES ALONG THE THOROUGHFARE? A familiar name is preserved and it would take all of 3 seconds for Charlotteans to process the change. Navigation by street names would then actually be feasible!

In tree-filled cities with curvalinear street patterns, the names of streets become ever more important.

BTW, Charlotte has great street names: Freedom Dr., Independence, Tryon, Lasalle, etc. (much better than Atlanta's Buford Hwy)

Let me be jokingly mean for a minute:).....An important artery with abrubtly changing names is idiotic...and I'll would bet that 95% of every resident of every city in the world would agree. Look at how all interstates use "control cities" for their signage. (I love how I-95 in Virginia used to be labeled: Miami....Who cares if it's over 1000 miles away.)

OK keep your "uptown". I personally don't like it-to me it's either a directional adjective like here in NYC, or it's a slang insult for pretentiousness.

[monsoon]

Uptown is part of Charlotte's heritage dating back to the 1750's when the Indian paths crossed on a hilltop, eventually grew into a hamlet with a courthouse and general stores. Uptown was and still is located on a ridge. The streetcar neighborhoods built to serve Charlotte's central business district traveled "up" town to get there. More recently on September 23, 1974 as recorded by the Charlotte Observer, Mayor John Belk signed a proclamation designating the central business district as "Uptown". If you still doubt the validity of the phrase, take a walk toward Trade and Tryon. From many part of Uptown, you must walk up hill to get there.

I looked up exactly the meaning and history of the phrase. "Uptown" was not generally used until the 1840s and was used to designate the residential parts of a city as opposed to downtown which meant the business parts.

After WWII, uptown became commonly used to refer to the fashionable parts and well to do parts of a city where the high end shopping was located. This was of course before the mall took over but this is most likely when Uptown, based on the history started to be used to describe downtown Charlotte by some. 1946.

Based on that, I would say that downtown in referring to Charlotte at trade and tryon has been in use much longer to describe trade and tryon rather than Uptown.

[Neo]

Regardless of the preference to use downtown or uptown I believe most people know that either term is used to signify Charlotte's CBD. I have used both in the past and consider them interchangeable. I could see where outsiders may get confused if coming from a place that does not use the term but considering all signage points to "downtown" I would consider it a mute point and even more so a waste of money to change from downtown to uptown just to make a statement. Money for converting and marketing such could be used elsewhere such as our road lighting problems.

The constant changing of road names however, whether it is a part of Charlotte's heritage or not, is baffling even to those who are from here. When a client is at Queens and Queens how are you ever going to give directions to them without causing a puzzling look on their face? Of course our road naming convention is buried under stone IMO and is likely to never be changed so we are in the unfortunate circumstance of just dealing.

[28202]

"When a client is at Queens and Queens how are you ever going to give directions to them without causing a puzzling look on their face?"

My office is near there, it happens a lot, we say drive another block and call again when the road names aren't the same...

Also for strangers saying follow the route 4 signs and ignore the street names...

As for Tyvola,Fairview,Sardis,Rama & Idlewild, "just keep driving despite the name changes until you get to 77 or Independence."

For all those quails and sharons just ask "what in the world are you doing out there?"

[uptownliving]

NCDOT will be hosting a meeting in Pineville next week to discuss their plans to widen the 485 chokepoint from I-77 to Johnston Rd. Construction on adding the extra lane is not due to begin for another 6 years...but they want public input to make sure their plans look good. There just seems to be something odd to me that something as simple as adding a lane to 485 will take 6 years to plan.

NCDOT 485 Widning Plans

4pm-7pm

413 Johnston Drive in Pineville.

[Justadude]

I looked up exactly the meaning and history of the phrase. "Uptown" was not generally used until the 1840s and was used to designate the residential parts of a city as opposed to downtown which meant the business parts... Based on that, I would say that downtown in referring to Charlotte at trade and tryon has been in use much longer to describe trade and tryon rather than Uptown.

But this is only referring to the word "downtown" as a generic, in the sense that it could apply to the CBD of any city. I would call the CBD of Tokyo "downtown" if I had to refer to it, but I doubt that is what the locals would call it.

After WWII, uptown became commonly used to refer to the fashionable parts and well to do parts of a city where the high end shopping was located. This was of course before the mall took over but this is most likely when Uptown, based on the history started to be used to describe downtown Charlotte by some. 1946.

My understanding is that the opposite was the case with Charlotte; the local phrase "uptown" began to be replaced with "downtown" after the war, when the first large influx of transplants hit the city. The generic "downtown" became the commonplace for the same reasons that we're having this conversation right now.

In any case, the idea of dropping the uptown label is probably moot at this point. Outsiders are really the only ones confused by the convention, and it's not something that takes long to get used to once you know about it (unlike the street name issue). Not to mention that many of the businesses in the CBD and beyond (Uptown Cabaret ) have "Uptown" as part of their name; I doubt they'd be in favor of having to either change their name or sound dated.

[grodney]

NCDOT will be hosting a meeting in Pineville next week to discuss their plans to widen the 485 chokepoint from I-77 to Johnston Rd. Construction on adding the extra lane is not due to begin for another 6 years...but they want public input to make sure their plans look good. There just seems to be something odd to me that something as simple as adding a lane to 485 will take 6 years to plan.

NCDOT 485 Widning Plans

4pm-7pm

413 Johnston Drive in Pineville.

Day/Date? And is there a contact/phone/e-mail?

Thanks!

By the way, I read somewhere that "they" were told to go ahead and plan it, just in case money pops up from somewhere before then (which I believe will happen), so that once there is money, they don't have to wait on planning.

[uptownliving]

Opps forgot to put that down. It is Tuesday, June 19th.

[PlazaMidwoodGuy]

There just seems to be something odd to me that something as simple as adding a lane to 485 will take 6 years to plan.

Welcome to road building in NC. More specifically, welcome to road building in Charlotte when the money comes from NC.

[JRNYP2C]

I was driving on 485 yesterday afternoon towards Ballantyne and noticed that the road had received a new paved surface from 77 to 521.

Now I haven't been on this part of 485 in about a month, but I'm thoroughly confused as to why this is.

Who is the lunkhead who approved paving a portion of road that didn't really have problems to necessitate repaving.

I have a really interesting, yet not new idea....

Why not use the money, materials and manpower to BUILD A NEW LANE!!!

NCDOT - what the hell are you thinking?

[Raintree21]

The Observer is resporting today that CATS is increasing their routes on the 54X route from University to downtown due to the increased ridership. They will now run buses every 10 minutes during rush hour, starting on July 2nd.

[Otto]

I was driving on 485 yesterday afternoon towards Ballantyne and noticed that the road had received a new paved surface from 77 to 521.

Now I haven't been on this part of 485 in about a month, but I'm thoroughly confused as to why this is.

Who is the lunkhead who approved paving a portion of road that didn't really have problems to necessitate repaving.

I have a really interesting, yet not new idea....

Why not use the money, materials and manpower to BUILD A NEW LANE!!!

NCDOT - what the hell are you thinking?

Due to environmental legislation at the federal and state level. Adding a lane in each direction is a little bit more complicated than laying down pavement. There is this thing called the National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA for short) that requires a study of the impact of the improvement to the natural and human environment. Due to this policy.....NCDOT is currently in the planning/design process for adding additional laneage to I-485 from I-77 to US 521. A citizen's informational workshop was recently held...if not soon to be held for the proposed improvements.

[Andyc545]

Due to environmental legislation at the federal and state level. Adding a lane in each direction is a little bit more complicated than laying down pavement. There is this thing called the National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA for short) that requires a study of the impact of the improvement to the natural and human environment. Due to this policy.....NCDOT is currently in the planning/design process for adding additional laneage to I-485 from I-77 to US 521. A citizen's informational workshop was recently held...if not soon to be held for the proposed improvements.

That meeting is actually coming up tomorrow, according to the Charlotte Observer. It will be open to the public. Here is the link for more info... http://www.charlotte.com/breaking_news/story/164272.html

[peaceloveunderstanding]

Welcome to road building in NC. More specifically, welcome to road building in Charlotte when the money comes from NC.

I went to Raleigh yesterday. In Salisbury 85 is, at places, 10 lanes wide. In the heart of Charlotte, there are places where 77 is 6 lanes. 485 is, for the most part, 4 lanes.

Someone, somewhere is sick.

Edited June 20, 2007 by moonshield

[coreyt]

I went to Raleigh yesterday. In Salisbury 85 is, at places, 10 lanes wide. In the heart of Charlotte, there are places where 77 is 6 lanes. 485 is, for the most part, 4 lanes.

Someone, somewhere is sick.

It's 10 lanes in Salisbury because someone in power happens to be from Salisbury. *coughelizabethdolecough* It's a pity that Charlotte suffers, but that's life.

[grodney]

The biggest joke, and the most disgusting, was that a lane was added to 485 just *west* of 77 within the last couple years.

I don't know who all was responsible for this, but they should all be fired.

I don't care about "buckets" of money. I don't care about funding "rules". Don't tell me it's complicated. Don't tell me I don't understand. There is logic, and there is stupidity.

Adding that lane, as opposed to adding a lane *east* of 77, was just plain stupid.

There is no excuse. Period.

[e2ksj3]

^ Now that you mention that doesn't make sense at all. I-485 was suppose to be mostly 2-lane to the west of I-77, but an extra lane was added, without any red tape. I don't know why they couldn't speed up the process for I-485 from at least 77 to Johnston or Providence roads.

[dubone]

"I don't care about "buckets" of money. I don't care about funding "rules". Don't tell me it's complicated. Don't tell me I don't understand. There is logic, and there is stupidity."

When it is illegal to spend money somewhere, then it is illegal. You may not care, but it is still something that must be followed. Just because you want the money spent on one section of 485 doesn't mean it is legal to spend it there. Many of those laws are unfair, or counter-intuitive, but until the law changes, loop funds cannot be spent on widening that road. Remember that the reason that section of 485 is so populated and has people caring about it being widenened is that it was built first, ahead of any other section of 485 and most other loops in the state. That was probably unfair at the time to other places at the time.

Meanwhile, there are new funds that have been allocated to this section of 485, and in road-building terms is not far away at all.

Is it dumb for NCDOT to have corrected the number of lanes on a section before it is official done construction? Look at a map carefully, and you'll see that the section west of 77 will very much be a bypass for through traffic. It is what they failed to do on the section east of 77, but that is the breaks of being first, is that you don't get the benefit of the lessons of others.

I suppose you are not so disgusted as to relocate to an area that isn't choked with its own sprawl. It must be the government's fault for their silly laws.

[Andyc545]

WCNC posted an article and video on a follow-up to yesterdays meeting. Here's the line... http://www.wcnc.com/news/topstories/storie...g.1d6fb249.html . It is actually quite sickening that they admittably don't have a good sol'n. And by the time they even extend an add'l lane both ways, it won't even be done for 2 yrs after they start in a few years, and by then it would be outdated again! They said they don't have the funding for more than one lane each yr.

Does anyone know if the reason why they won't begin this project for a few yrs b/c they want to complete the loop on the north first? Or is it just going to take much time to prepare for the project?

One other comment regarding this issue. The South LRT is great. However, by having this, it's going to keep the same ppl on this stretch of 485. Yes it will clear up South Blvd. But yuck, during rush hour, imagine all of the ppl flooding from the 485 station onto 485. I guess theoretically it will be the same amt of ppl that serve 485 now, but it looks like this 485 project is going to still be an issue, and once it is increased to 3 lanes, I think there are going to be many unhappy folks, wanting it bigger.

[cinco]

Does anyone know if the reason why they won't begin this project for a few yrs b/c they want to complete the loop on the north first? Or is it just going to take much time to prepare for the project?

supposedly, it just takes that long in planning... the money is already in place.

[dubone]

It was all a careful budget compromise. They got the money to widen the southern part of 485 by delaying the northern part, so it was not possible to bump other projects that were scheduled to go before the northern part, as those are already under construction (northwest section).

Road construction will always be 'outdated' as it the capacity creates demand. It is an intrinsic benefit of transit lines that capacity can be increased in a much cheaper way. An intrinsic drawback of urban freeways are that adding capacity will always be costly, and any capacity will always be used up quickly as freeways are often faster than city streets even with the congestion. Also, money spent to widen freeways in one place often just shifts the burden to the next stretch of roadway. For example, if 485 were doubled, then more cars would get to 77 at once, creating just as much congestion. It is a major reason that transit cannot reduce congestion, because the cars that transit removes from the roads are replaced by other cars that then find the freeway less congested.

[Andyc545]

I had an idea / possible soln that I got from the other post well researching Calgary's Transit. It's just a beginning idea, I don't know the technicality's with CAT's busses going on 485, but here it is... Why not use that additional lane on 485 as an HOV in that area. This would promote carpooling and give an area for buss's for the morning commute. Put a park and ride in Ballantyne somewhere and may be on Providence and have bus's that would take 485 HOV to the 485 Blue Lynx Line Station. From there, commuters could utilize the Lynx Blue Rail. This would promote healthy use of the LRT and allow commuters to only have to drive or walk to Park and Rides. The HOV lane would help move traffic on 485, while promoting carpooling and transit during rush hours. I could see a lot of ppl choosing these alternatives after seeing the interviews on the news with ppl stuck in that traffic. Plus we'd get good use out of the LRT. Just an idea, maybe a sol'n. What do you guys think?

Edit: Oh yeah, and that means CAT's revenue too!

Edited June 20, 2007 by Andyc545

[dubone]

I had heard that DOT was looking at HOT/HOV lanes (which have separate funding) in addition to the one lane that is now included in the TIP. That would allow not only for busses to go through the area faster en route to the LRT, but also allow people to pay a toll to use the lane with congestion pricing using a RF payment process (like a fast version of EZ Pass). Not only would it allow for building a 4th lane where traditional funding only can support a third lane, but also allows the freeway to be more efficient, by reward carpoolers and transit riders. The toll aspect then allows for a revenue stream from people in a hurry and willing to pay a toll, which can help to fund that fourth lane, too. It would be sort of like 77 in the north, where a 4th lane is funded by HOV funds from the fed, and the third lane funded by the traditional transportation money.

Considering just adding one lane within existing right off way and under existing bridges costs almost $50 million within just 6.6 miles, that is pretty much all that can be afforded. The fourth lane is going to be a lot more expensive.