Traffic Congestion and Highway Construction

[grodney]

Yeah, true. Crosland made me aware of the money they'd spent at Rea & Ardrey Kell when I wrote to (nicely) tell them that the entrances/exits to Blakeney need re-working. [google break] (From charlotte.bizjournals.com: "To get the complex built, Crosland invested nearly $9 million in road improvements.".)

But those examples are still small-scale compared to the broad view. It goes back to your earlier comment about blaming Charlotte for approving the developments in the first place. Sure, they force the developers to do the little improvements around the developments; but with no help on the big stuff, everyone is stuck sitting on 485 or Providence Rd or Johnston Rd or 51.

[monsoon]

^Yes it is the fault of the local government for allowing developers and property owners to have their way in SE Charlotte. The Outer Beltway, now known as I-485 was approved in the early 80s and capacity designed for based on input from the City and County on what they would allow there. It was supposed to be a transportation alternative and not a instrument to enable sprawling development. The road had not even opened when the government bent over to developers and approved massive development around the new interchanges.

The result is the mess we have today. We can only hope the city will not make the same mistakes on the West side and North side where the last parts of this road are being built. For the people that live around the original section of the highway, I doubt they will ever get any relief.

[ChiefJoJo]

http://www.charmeck.org/NR/rdonlyres/ekbqv...gsn72veh/01.pdf

What I find to be huge news if it pans out is that Charlotte City Council will be reviewing Monday a list of projects to include in the 2009-2015 7 year construction plan. Instead of listing each minute section of Independence, they actually have it listed as a single project from Sharon Amity to 485. As it is ranked 1st, 2nd, and 6th, it seems to me that finishing the widening of Independence is actually on the horizon now. Once in the construction plan, it can be sped up with Garvee bonds. Or even just waiting until 2015 isn't terrible.

What is interesting about it is that once it is on the 7 year construction plan, and stays there for a few years, I bet we can go back to discussing the transit options in that corridor for the 2035 plan (assuming the voters don't reneg).

Correct me if I'm wrong JoJo, but isn't that saying this is now just a few votes away from being in the 7 year plan?

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but it's essentially the candidate list the MPO sends to the state to request funding for new projects for the 2009-2015 TIP. It doesn't mean it will actually be funded. There is of course the $174M, 1.4 mile-project to widen Independence (extend the transitway) and build interchanges at Sharon Amity and Idlewild starting in 2009 or 2010. Past that, there really is not any funding available for the remainder to I-485. The harsh reality is that construction cost inflation is eating up and already underfunded budget. The cost inflation index is almost 100% in the last 5 years... so the state's buying power is half what it was in 2002. Given the cost per mile on the next segment, I'd guess the remaining portion to I-485 will be easily over the $1B range (including the road and transit portion, LRT or BRT

In that case, write your state legislator. But really, this was simply a fact of how the political compromises and the statewide referendum played out that funded 485 in the first place. The Ballantyne area benefited from this money, and those were the strings attached.

If you are proposing for all public money everywhere to have all strings and qualifiers removed, then you might find that less money would go where you would vote it to go.

I think your points are simply your own experience with the frustrating fact that Charlotte does not have its transportation projects funded. There are many reasons for this, including that the gas tax revenue is not coming close to covering the inflation of materials and labor for projects. Another reason is that the state uses gas tax revenues to cover other expenses, so we are actually saving money in income taxes or state sales tax theoretically by having them use that existing revenue stream rather than raise taxes. Another reason is that Mecklenburg is one of 100 counties in NC, and the urban areas simply do not have the votes to raise transportation spending here by removing funds from rural areas or other cities.

The best case that I can make that is practical and not ineffective idealism, is to have a local revenue stream from and for this area for its roadway projects. The fact is, our current gas tax subsidizes rural North Carolina roads, period. There is no political change in the state legislature for this situation.

Note that even the state legislatures from this county alone bickered over the loop money when Mumford figured out a way to fund the one extra lane in the South (the one that is actually happening). When you have state legislators from Mecklenburg AGAINST the widening of 485 in the south because of the risk to the loop money in their own districts, then you sort of can imagine how people from other counties feel about it.

We need to start planning for the fact that we aren't going to get many projects finished within the current revenue stream from the state.

The north vs south 485 debate definitely hurts Meck in the long run--a united front is ALWAYS better when dealing with the state. Incidentally, the 485 south project does have state funding, but the bill that alowed loop funds to be used is only for 6 lanes. (This is the only location in the state where widening using loop funds is currently allowed.) If 8 lanes are required, some other source must be found--possibly a HOT lanes, where drivers would pay to ride free of congestion at peak hours and the toll would self-fund the extra improvements.

Not only do the urban counties subsidize the rural ones, but the state of NC subsidizes other more rural states. We actually only receive about 85% of the federal gas tax revenue generated in this state. The best bet is for Mecklenburg, Wake, and other populous, growing, counties should work together to find a dedicated local revenue stream to fund their transportation and school needs for the foreseeable future, as the situation at the state and federal level will only get worse over time. Even with new funding sources, in the near future, people in this country will increasingly have to choose: sit in more congestion or pay a toll to save some time.

Over and above what I've said here, my opinion is that as gas prices rise and congestion worsens over time and the govt's ability to keep pace lessens, the benefits of suburban-living will diminsh and urban living will become an even more attractive choice for many people, perhaps eventually becoming the "new beach-front property" for the 21st Century.

[Andyc545]

Even with new funding sources, in the near future, people in this country will increasingly have to choose: sit in more congestion or pay a toll to save some time.

How about alternative transportation... An HOV lane could be dedicated to that... Don't have to pay a toll, but could be funded by the HOV fund, and allow CAT's to have an increasing income that could be used for some of the projects that they are trying to get from local/state/fed, in return, the local/state/fed money can be used to help grow the LRT faster with CAT's income.... Less of a need for personal transportation.

[ChiefJoJo]

How about alternative transportation... An HOV lane could be dedicated to that... Don't have to pay a toll, but could be funded by the HOV fund, and allow CAT's to have an increasing income that could be used for some of the projects that they are trying to get from local/state/fed, in return, the local/state/fed money can be used to help grow the LRT faster with CAT's income.... Less of a need for personal transportation.

Yeah, I should have added HOV as well, but I'm not following your logic on how HOV-lanes could fund an improvement. They are typically used as a capacity management tool only, but there are revenue streams from HOT lanes that can at least partially self-fund a project. It's possible that a lane could be designated say HOV 3+ *and* HOT for those single or double occupant vehicles who want to pay to ride in a free-flow lane. The only problem with that scenario is with the traffic mix (HOV and HOT in the same lane) you lose some of the ability to manage flow at peak rush hour periods.

[Andyc545]

Yeah, I should have added HOV as well, but I'm not following your logic on how HOV-lanes could fund an improvement. They are typically used as a capacity management tool only, but there are revenue streams from HOT lanes that can at least partially self-fund a project. It's possible that a lane could be designated say HOV 3+ *and* HOT for those single or double occupant vehicles who want to pay to ride in a free-flow lane. The only problem with that scenario is with the traffic mix (HOV and HOT in the same lane) you lose some of the ability to manage flow at peak rush hour periods.

What I mean is using the lane for CAT's carpool and CATs busses, in addition to carpoolers. If CAT's busses used those lanes, it would lead to an increase in bus users from ballantyne, say if there were a park and ride and the bus made a route to the 485 station. In no traffic, commuters from se charlotte could avoid the traffic hell on 485, get to the se station and hop on board the train, it would only be a 10 minute drive in no traffic by bus... They would have the potential to get downtown from Ballantyne in just a little over 30 minutes in morning and evening rush hour traffic. The funds part for CAT's comes in, with an increase number of users paying for the bus fair, then the use of the train. The cost for the HOV lane would come out of that fund. Of course commuters could avoid CAT's busses and use the lane too, which would promote carpooling... hopefully a lot of those carpoolers would take it to the 485 station, take the train north.

[nyxmike]

I think an HOV on 485 would work better if it connected to an HOV on I-77. I am all for mass transit, but I think they need to do something with I-77 south eventually. 4 Lanes and an HOV lane is not unreasonable (except for the price tag aha). I wonder if they could speed up construction if they tolled the HOV lanes?

Edited June 27, 2007 by nyxmike

[Andyc545]

I think an HOV on 485 would work better if it connected to an HOV on I-77. I am all for mass transit, but I think they need to do something with I-77 south eventually. 4 Lanes and an HOV lane is not unreasonable (except for the price tag aha). I wonder if they could speed up construction if they tolled the HOV lanes?

The only problem I see with it tolled is, 1) they would have to do some advancements with a median to keep it seperate from the non tolled road so ppl don't sneak over the line and back to avoid paying, 2) the only time the HOV lane would be used then in terms of ppl paying for it is peak times- morning and evening commute. All other times, no one would pay to use it.

I do agree it needs to be extended Southern 77, the way it stops at the north end of the city kind of defeats the purpose of getting ppl past the city traffic and to there destination, which for a lot is travelers heading south of the city, aka Florida, S.Carolina, etc.

Edited June 27, 2007 by Andyc545

[ChiefJoJo]

I think an HOV on 485 would work better if it connected to an HOV on I-77. I am all for mass transit, but I think they need to do something with I-77 south eventually. 4 Lanes and an HOV lane is not unreasonable (except for the price tag aha). I wonder if they could speed up construction if they tolled the HOV lanes?

It's certainly possible--actually with the congestion there and no funds in sight for improving it, I'd say it's fairly likely something like that may happen on I-77S. The funds received from the toll lane for x-years would pay back the bonds taken out for the inital construction just like a traditional toll road.

[grodney]

I live south of 485 off of Johnston. I work uptown. I would love to take a train. But the South LRT doesn't appear to be an option. In the morning, by the time I get to South Blvd, I'm past all the trouble and pretty much uptown. In the afternoon, getting from South Blvd to 485 already is, and will be even more, a nightmare.

Bus isn't an answer. Simply takes too much time.

A train from Johnston (or Rea) to the South LRT might be an answer. Or a pay/bus lane to the South LRT. Although, again, if I can pay to get to South Blvd, I'm not sure why I'd then park and get on a train.

Mind you, my vision is warped because I have the nice flexibility to commute in the morning from 6:15 to 6:45, and in the afternoon from 3:30 to 4:00. 485 still sucks both am and pm, and 77 sometimes does, but not nearly as bad as peak times. If I had to go at higher volume times, my view on the train and/or bus might be different.

Finally, semi-related, I would gladly pay a toll twice-a-day to help add a lane to 485. And as I said, I'm not even there at peak times. (And while we're talking about tolls, I'll gladly pay one to get around Monroe every time I go to the beach. Is there a thread for this project? I haven't heard much about it lately.)

[dubone]

My personal belief of why South to Johnston is so bad is that there are not many local street options to bypass it. I have long believed that it could be helped by connecting Centrum Parkway (near the Best Buy and KMart) to South Blvd across Little Sugar Creek, and widening Lancaster Highway to be at least as wide as Ballantyne Parkway. That would at least keep a lot of Pineville and Mall traffic off the freeway between 51 and South Blvd. Those are a couple of big parkways that can handle a lot of traffic and funded by the city and state, but do not go anywhere. All they need to do is widen a stretch of rural highway, and cross a creek and they've created a very useful corridor that can take cars off the bottleneck section, while costing significantly less than widening the freeway.

Freeways are not very good tools for delivering EVERYONE to their workplace. I feel like most people recognize the traffic problem, and so they can't imagine that creating an alternate route would be better than widening the existing route. But it would be much much cheaper, and probably more effective.

It was also allow drivers to stay off the freeway but get to the LRT on South Blvd.

They would just need to widen the stretch higlighted in red below, and you can see how it would connect the existing parkways to create a very nice parkway bypass for the freeway.

[monsoon]

.....

Mind you, my vision is warped because I have the nice flexibility to commute in the morning from 6:15 to 6:45, and in the afternoon from 3:30 to 4:00. 485 still sucks both am and pm, and 77 sometimes does, but not nearly as bad as peak times. If I had to go at higher volume times, my view on the train and/or bus might be different......

I think the traffic on I-77 through the city will get a lot better once the western leg of I-485 is completed later this year. Like most cities with loop roads like this, people will quickly learn that it is simply faster to go from the north end to the south end (and vice versa) by traveling on the loop road instead of the main highway through the center of town.

The good news is the I-77 will get a lot easier to drive on because through traffic (interstate traffic) won't be on it anymore. The bad news is most visitors traveling through the area will never see downtown Charlotte.

Of course this advantage will quickly disappear if the city council allows the same kind of massive development on this section of the road, as it did on the SE and east sides.

[dubone]

I agree, metro. The western leg of 485 is the best hope for intown 77 congestion, as widening costs are in the billions, just for a lane or two.

So far, Charlotte has been much better about approving sprawling interchanges on the west side, but there has certainly been some development. The fact that the airport takes up so much of the area, and that a lot of the area is in floodplains for the Catawba, it won't likely ever see the kind of development that Ballantyne and Pineville saw. No malls, no employment zones, and no end to end power centers.

I hope that continues, though. When traffic counts go up from people using it as a bypass, there is a lot of risk that pressure from development forces will go way up.

[grodney]

Have you all driven on 485 from 77 to 85 lately? Miles and miles of clear-cutting just inside 485, all along 485. I don't know what it is, but it looks like a massive amount of development.

Regarding congestion on 77: In my experience, 77 became *way* less crowded as soon as 485 opened from 77 to 85. I agree it will get even better when the NW section of 485 is done.

[ontap]

Have you all driven on 485 from 77 to 85 lately? Miles and miles of clear-cutting just inside 485, all along 485. I don't know what it is, but it looks like a massive amount of development.

Regarding congestion on 77: In my experience, 77 became *way* less crowded as soon as 485 opened from 77 to 85. I agree it will get even better when the NW section of 485 is done.

That's the new runway to for the airport plus some road realignments.

[ChiefJoJo]

Finally, semi-related, I would gladly pay a toll twice-a-day to help add a lane to 485. And as I said, I'm not even there at peak times. (And while we're talking about tolls, I'll gladly pay one to get around Monroe every time I go to the beach. Is there a thread for this project? I haven't heard much about it lately.)

You may just get your wish. The Monroe project is moving forward (slowly, I realize) under the management of the NC Turnpike Authority, website here. I understand they just had some workshops in Union Co this week that were well attended. It's likely that the entire roadway from 485 to Marshville will be a toll road (MUMPO will decide later this summer). The project can be bonded at around 70% (funded by tolls over a 40-year period) and the rest would be funded by the existing TIP money. The toll would likely be in the $2.50 range for the entire 21 mile journey. Here's an article on the project in the Observer.

I think the traffic on I-77 through the city will get a lot better once the western leg of I-485 is completed later this year. Like most cities with loop roads like this, people will quickly learn that it is simply faster to go from the north end to the south end (and vice versa) by traveling on the loop road instead of the main highway through the center of town.

The good news is the I-77 will get a lot easier to drive on because through traffic (interstate traffic) won't be on it anymore. The bad news is most visitors traveling through the area will never see downtown Charlotte.

Of course this advantage will quickly disappear if the city council allows the same kind of massive development on this section of the road, as it did on the SE and east sides.

Good point, and one I've made before... hopefully, it will take in the range of 10-20,000 cars and trucks off the road. We saw that kind of jump after 485 was completed to I-85 west--travelers using I-85 to US 74 moved to I-485 as a new bypass route. We may see even higher diversion on I-77.

[dubone]

I like the idea of a toll on the Monroe Bypass, is it will slow the growth of sprawl on that road in comparison to if it were a freeway. Then, if sprawling developments do happen, at least those people are paying for the road.

I took 74 to the beach near Wilmington this year. It is getting faster with various improvements on the way, but still 1/4 of the time is just getting past Union County. This bypass will cut that time significantly.

Grodney, do you think my proposal for an local road alternate would help the 485 situation? I agree that 77 is far better than 485, because at least on 77 you are still moving.

[PlazaMidwoodGuy]

I like the idea of a toll on the Monroe Bypass, is it will slow the growth of sprawl on that road in comparison to if it were a freeway. Then, if sprawling developments do happen, at least those people are paying for the road.

I took 74 to the beach near Wilmington this year. It is getting faster with various improvements on the way, but still 1/4 of the time is just getting past Union County. This bypass will cut that time significantly.

As a Union County native who visits family in that area, and as someone who drives to Wilmington from time to time, I know what a challenge it is to get from Charlotte to the other side of Monroe. It is by far the worst part of the drive to Wilmington and I NEVER use Hwy. 74 in Union because it's just too congested. Frankly, the road has never exactly been a treat to drive. I remember my parents cursing it and doing their best to avoid it even in the 1970's. But it has obviously gotten much worse over the last few years and the Monroe Bypass would seem to me to be the only hope of ever getting through the bottleneck that is Union County. I agree that making it a toll road would help keep development down on the bypass somewhat. Then again, Union County is such a development whore that it makes Mecklenburg look virginal by comparison. I mean, do they ever say "no" to developers? What kind of development pressure would the bypass face and would the county's powers that be even attempt to resist it?

Luckily, since I know so many back roads through Union County, I tend to get through there with a minimum of pain when I visit family or to go to Wilmington. But I dare not share my secrets because then all the rest of you will start using those roads and crowd them. And no my secret is NOT Hwy. 218. Far too many Charlotte folks have discovered that one already and, while better than 74, if you get behind Maw-Maw in her Buick LeSabre or Farmer Joe in his old pick-up truck doing 35 mph you're pretty much screwed, since there are so few passing zones to get around them.

On a side note, I wish they could build a bypass around Wadesboro, as well. While not nearly the nightmare of Monroe, it's still a shame that all that traffic is funneled right through that little town with numerous traffic lights and houses not even 10 feet from the highway!

Edited June 29, 2007 by PlazaMidwoodGuy

[grodney]

PlazaMidwoodGuy, I'm almost certain a bypass around Wadesboro is planned. I don't have details at hand, but I'm sure I've read about it in the last few years. Sorry I can't recall the approximate date for that happening. (I'm still counting the days until 12/31/2008 when the new 4-lane from Maxton to I-95 is done.)

Grodney, do you think my proposal for an local road alternate would help the 485 situation? I agree that 77 is far better than 485, because at least on 77 you are still moving.

The Centrum Pkwy extension is an interesting idea. Seems like that backdoor in/out of the mall area would take some pressure off of 51 at the mall.

Widening Lancaster Hwy would also be good. Lots of people already try to use that, but it gets heavily congested. I think your red line would need to go a bit further, as it is currently 2-lane all the way from 51. So I think making it 4-lane from 51 to Ballantyne Commons would do it. Of course, you might as well go 4-lane all the way down to 521 at that point.

Anyway, those would help, but I still get the feeling like a ton of traffic comes from south of 485 at Rea and at Providence, and the development only continues off of those. For people going that far east, they wouldn't use a non-485 route, but maybe the Lancaster Hwy and Ballantyne people would, thus making it better for everyone.

But one other thing, again, in the afternoon rush, 485 is bad from the flyover to 51. Barring wrecks, it then clears up from 51 until at least Johnston. So in other words, the problem is *getting* to the Pineville exits. I suppose if more people were exiting at the first Pineville exit (South Blvd / Polk ) to take local routes, then maybe 485 would stay a bit more clear.

[dubone]

The section between the Monroe Bypass and the Rockingham Bypass is R-4441 in the TIP, but the $400 million isn't funded yet.

http://ncdot.org/planning/development/TIP/...s/pdf/div10.pdf

[PlazaMidwoodGuy]

Thanks for that info, dubone. With any luck I may someday drive on it in my lifetime.

[New Name]

I don't know where to put this, but:

Has anyone else seen the Wachovia Clean Air (or is it Hybrid) bus? What is it? Is it a CATS bus presented by Wachovia, or is it a special bus to move Wachovia employees around?

[Andyc545]

I don't know where to put this, but:

Has anyone else seen the Wachovia Clean Air (or is it Hybrid) bus? What is it? Is it a CATS bus presented by Wachovia, or is it a special bus to move Wachovia employees around?

Lol, that is the funniest thing, because I was driving through downtown like 3 hours ago, and I'm driving towards what looks to be some alien bus vehicle, I get closer and I thought it was a new CAT's bus that was electric or hybrid, then I see the wachovia logo across the side. I thought, I never have seen that bus. I asked my girlfriend if she had seen it and described it to her. It must be brand new. I was kind of leaning towards it being a shuttle bus for Wachovia employees, because I noticed BofA had some shuttle busses for parking for BofA employees. I do like that it's truly a "green" vehicle, from it's looks. I'm really glad to see that in the streets of Charlotte, I hope to learn more about this as what it's doing for Wachovia and what the heck this vehicle is and is it a look at the future of bus transportation, maybe for CATs. Thanks for posting that, I thought I was the only one.

[Justadude]

^ I saw a few of these during the last PGA event, but only during that week. Never saw 'em again, so I assumed they were promotional. They look really nice, so hopefully they're in general circulation...

[Raintree21]

I've seen a "Clean Air" CATS bus that runs on natural gas but not a Wachovia bus. It looks kinda funny cause it has a weird top that seems twice the size of a normal bus.