Traffic Congestion and Highway Construction

[elrodvt]

5 minutes ago, Madison Parkitect said:

 Or the city would hire a steel contractor that would end up making the tunnel exits 5' tall.

LOL

[kermit]

18 minutes ago, elrodvt said:

I don't get the "fanboy" or Musk hate!

For me virtually everything the man says related to transportation planning is geared towards building a great transportation system for the elite and leaving everyone else out of any of the improvements he proposes. The man pretty clearly despises the idea of public transportation (his primary income stream these days comes from selling cars and he did grow up with wealthy parents in Arpitheid era South Africa after all). It doesn't take much to see that the man is likely to be intentionally working to damage the future of dense urbanism -- the vague (and IMO unobtainable) promise of self-driving cars and the tunnels that might help them go faster being exhibit #1. 

Edited March 23, 2021 by kermit

[jthomas]

13 minutes ago, elrodvt said:

I don't get the "fanboy" or Musk hate! The guys completely revolutionized Space and Autos in a very short time and *without feeding from the public trough*. Most of the other efforts (boeing and LM) are huge profit makers for the companies with contracts written by their lobbyists and cemented by bought congressmen.

Yes, he rarely meets his ridiculously optimistic dates but he does a lot better than nasa (for example) and setting aggressive goals is a time trusted management approach to get the best from your team.

Regardless of his achievements in other fields, IMO the "hate" in transit circles stems from:

1) his apparent elitist disdain for the users of "regular" transit, and

2) the fact that his "transit" proposals are undeniably, mathematically inferior to existing transit solutions. For example, there is no way that his electric skate thingies could ever come close to matching the throughput of a subway line, which can have trains that carry 1,000 people come along every two minutes.

The fact is, the US is decades behind other developed countries in public transportation, and merely catching up will be incredibly difficult. While the Boring Company may yet yield lower tunneling costs, Elon's transit proposals are the equivalent of the Springfield Monorail. They seduce gullible politicians who want to be seen as promoting forward-thinking ideas, and distract them from implementing basic but unsexy improvements, like simply running more buses. 

And I think the "fanboy" label is justified when a person's stream of consciousness Twitter ramblings can lead to major fluctuations in the entire stock market. Elon may be brilliant, but he is still just a man. Too many people treat every half-baked idea of his as if it is some mystical insight that the rest of us are too simple to understand. The truth is, he is wrong sometimes, just as we all are. That doesn't discredit his achievements, it just means that not all of his ideas are good ones.

[elrodvt]

He's not all good for sure but the apartheid comment is kinda odd? 

Are you saying anyone who furthers Autos to be non c02 emitters and the safest vehicles are evil because they aren't also working on public transit? Guess that means all car companies are evil and their leaders hate urbanism? I don't get it. Guy works on what he thinks he can make money at and claims to only want to further mankind with his profits (believe it or not). If we don't control co2 and come up with ways to move off planet our species may very well become extinct. Preventing that seems like a good goal? I'm curious - Who do you hold up as an example case?

I just don't think he's as interested in public transit as in those other more "meta" goals. You can only drive so many incredibly difficult projects at once after all. To me it's amazing he can do Tesla and Space X at the same time.

I'm coming off like he's my hero or something which isn't the case. There's a lot of negatives too. IMHO the positives far outweigh the negatives though.

I too don't believe completely autonomous driving is coming anytime soon and he's shamelessly promoted that it will. That said, I do see Tesla rapidly approaching the point where the autonomy they do have will make accidents much less likely. Considering the incredible performance of Tesla cars it's really surprising they're also some of the least likely cars to be in an accident resulting in serious injury. That's all good right??

[kermit]

6 hours ago, elrodvt said:

He's not all good for sure but the apartheid comment is kinda odd? 

Are you saying anyone who furthers Autos to be non c02 emitters and the safest vehicles are evil because they aren't also working on public transit?

Nope, I am not criticizing Musk for not working on transit. I am critical of him because he repeatedly promotes Teslas as climate solutions, when all individual autos can do is continue to promote sprawl (and thus additional climate damage). Combine that with some "interesting" remarks about transit and he seems to be actively attempting to damage cities in order to enrich himself:

Quote

“I think public transport is painful. It sucks. Why do you want to get on something with a lot of other people, that doesn’t leave where you want it to leave, doesn’t start where you want it to start, doesn’t end where you want it to end? And it doesn’t go all the time.”

“It’s a pain in the ass,” he continued. “That’s why everyone doesn’t like it. And there’s like a bunch of random strangers, one of who might be a serial killer, OK, great. And so that’s why people like individualized transport, that goes where you want, when you want.”

https://web.archive.org/web/20201022163753/https://www.wired.com/story/elon-musk-awkward-dislike-mass-transit/ 

I don't begrudge the guy his right to say whatever he wants, but lets be clear --  All of Musk's proposals seek to improve mobility to the wealthy and leave everybody else in the cold. This would be fine if it were all funded by him, but he seeks public subsidies for these efforts (e.g. Loop-O'Hare hyperloop proposal). When his ridiculous proposals (see jthomas post above) get the attention of politicians they stunt the development of transit. Weather he realizes it or not, he is doing  more to damage urbanization than help it.

{the Apartheid comment wasn't intended to suggest he is a proponent of those views. Rather, if he spent his formative years in one of the most segregated societies of modern times its not unlikely that some of the expectations of segregation may have rubbed off on him. Such a perspective would explain some of his remarks about transit]

Edited March 24, 2021 by kermit

[DMann]

We are the country of the "Marlboro Man" rugged individualist, and anyone that thinks we will get rid of a personal vehicle is wrong.   Things are changing to be sure, but while personal car ownership may start to disappear when self driving is perfected, cars will still be around.

Musk has recognized an area to develop that no one else has done and he did it.  Tesla sales will continue to grow more rapidly than most, but as other manufacturers get into the game Tesla market share will shrink because the market is growing rapidly and others are finally jumping in.

To anyone out there please listen.  If you are in the market to buy a car, new or used, please know that the value of an ICE car will dwindle significantly.

[elrodvt]

^ That and as an enthusiast I'll say that if you have the $'s it's hard to beat the Tesla driving experience. 

I have had some pretty nice performing cars (beat up '69 911 and a. C5 'vette) and none were as fun to drive as these beasts are while still able to drive the family around in comfort - it's remarkable really. Torque is king and ICE's cannot give the instant torque an electric motor can. They're making their way into auto sports as well. The new Formula E series was pretty interesting the couple races I watched.

 

[tozmervo]

21 minutes ago, DMann said:

To anyone out there please listen.  If you are in the market to buy a car, new or used, please know that the value of an ICE car will dwindle significantly.

I think we're still >decade from ICE being a death sentence for cars, the main reason being that charging infrastructure is a looooooooong way off. If you have a garage (and use it for your car and not junk) you're ok to go. That's not true for any other housing. Apartment managers will be very slow to install charging infrastructure because of the up front cost, but it also puts them in the business of paying for residents' fuel. Townhomes or other on-street parking developments are in an even tougher spot. How high does demand have to be for HOAs to permit curb-side charging stations? 

[videtur quam contuor]

I was considering my next vehicle recently. I looked into full electric. Cost is not the major obstacle. I investigated the public charging structure for high speed charging and it is sufficient if you assume no one is using the charger when you arrive. Also if you have 30-40 minutes to go to the charger and connect and wait for enough to carry on with the journey. For 90% of driving it works for me as I could install a 240 charger in my garage. It is that 10% that concerns me. I looked at hybrid plug in vehicles (PHEV) and they were in two groups, the economy focused and the luxury focused that have everything such as Lincoln Aviator. I generalize here. The shake out in vehicle styles and options will take some time to develop. I am thermal drive and expect to be so for the future that I can foresee.

[elrodvt]

3 hours ago, tozmervo said:

I think we're still >decade from ICE being a death sentence for cars, the main reason being that charging infrastructure is a looooooooong way off. If you have a garage (and use it for your car and not junk) you're ok to go. That's not true for any other housing. Apartment managers will be very slow to install charging infrastructure because of the up front cost, but it also puts them in the business of paying for residents' fuel. Townhomes or other on-street parking developments are in an even tougher spot. How high does demand have to be for HOAs to permit curb-side charging stations? 

other states are a lot further along. NC has a wheel in the ditch on this topic. I don't know about 10y but soonish for sure

[elrodvt]

2 hours ago, tarhoosier said:

I was considering my next vehicle recently. I looked into full electric. Cost is not the major obstacle. I investigated the public charging structure for high speed charging and it is sufficient if you assume no one is using the charger when you arrive. Also if you have 30-40 minutes to go to the charger and connect and wait for enough to carry on with the journey. For 90% of driving it works for me as I could install a 240 charger in my garage. It is that 10% that concerns me. I looked at hybrid plug in vehicles (PHEV) and they were in two groups, the economy focused and the luxury focused that have everything such as Lincoln Aviator. I generalize here. The shake out in vehicle styles and options will take some time to develop. I am thermal drive and expect to be so for the future that I can foresee.

That's not really the normal case. Most people charge 15M or less (tesla supercharger anyhow). You don't charge from empty and you don't go that last 20% which is much slower. more frequent stops with shorter charges works well and there are plenty of Supercharges if your not going rural. In my case it calms down my almost pathological need to get places as fast as possible,  ;-)  Being a little more relaxed about it has turned out to be enjoyable.  Especially for my long suffering wife who's had to put up with my complaints about the number of  bathroom stops!

I rarely talk to an owner who has range anxiety. I had it myself before buying though. I don't anymore and that seems to be the case with the vast majority of owners.

We went hybrid before this with the Pacifica which, believe it or not, was a great car with a decent amount of luxury and for which we almost never used gas in when staying in town (~80% of driving).

To each his own of course.

[tozmervo]

15 hours ago, elrodvt said:

other states are a lot further along. NC has a wheel in the ditch on this topic. I don't know about 10y but soonish for sure

What have other states done to help apartments and development of on-street charging on private or public curbs?

[elrodvt]

1 hour ago, tozmervo said:

What have other states done to help apartments and development of on-street charging on private or public curbs?

@tozmervo, My comment was also wrt to incentives to purchase.

Regarding your question:

Here is a overview from a charging company of state incentives:

https://clippercreek.com/evse-rebates-and-tax-credits-by-state/

This article informs that chicago has passed legislation to promote ev charging in new apartment buildings. https://electrek.co/2020/05/05/cities-and-states-lead-the-way-on-new-electric-vehicle-incentives/

"At least 20% of parking spots must be ready for EV chargers in new residential buildings with five or more dwelling units and commercial buildings with 30 or more parking spaces".

Plus, for example, colorado has a $7500 tax credit for ev purchase. While backwards NC is working to de-incentivize purchase with their extra registration fees. Sometimes I think nc is in a race to the bottom with Mississippi and Alabama.

Plenty of other EV promoting action a few quick searches will reveal for you (literally hundreds of hits) . Unfortunately there's not much federal action so you really need to move to another state to get the benefits.

Living here I can see why people think EV's have not arrived yet. But, that's just an artifact of living in a red state.

I don't mean to start a political sh*storm but I really don't get why republicans are against virtually all progress. If you were to wake from a 100 year coma right now you could easily draw that conclusion though.

 

 

 

[Durhamite]

9 hours ago, elrodvt said:

@tozmervo, My comment was also wrt to incentives to purchase.

Regarding your question:

Here is a overview from a charging company of state incentives:

https://clippercreek.com/evse-rebates-and-tax-credits-by-state/

This article informs that chicago has passed legislation to promote ev charging in new apartment buildings. https://electrek.co/2020/05/05/cities-and-states-lead-the-way-on-new-electric-vehicle-incentives/

"At least 20% of parking spots must be ready for EV chargers in new residential buildings with five or more dwelling units and commercial buildings with 30 or more parking spaces".

Plus, for example, colorado has a $7500 tax credit for ev purchase. While backwards NC is working to de-incentivize purchase with their extra registration fees. Sometimes I think nc is in a race to the bottom with Mississippi and Alabama.

Plenty of other EV promoting action a few quick searches will reveal for you (literally hundreds of hits) . Unfortunately there's not much federal action so you really need to move to another state to get the benefits.

Living here I can see why people think EV's have not arrived yet. But, that's just an artifact of living in a red state.

I don't mean to start a political sh*storm but I really don't get why republicans are against virtually all progress. If you were to wake from a 100 year coma right now you could easily draw that conclusion though.

 

 

 

I work in the Energy Biz and it's not simply a NC or southern issue with regards to incentives.  And most state offerings are relatively modest, if any, so relocating for that reason is really moot.   I understand the push to move in this direction but at some point, traditional market forces will need to supplant subsidies, it will happen long-term.   But right now,  utilities are under tremendous pressure to modernize aging grid assets, harden cyber and physical security and maintain reliability operations while integrated all sorts of new technologies, resources and devices.  All the time staying profitable which is akin to the cigarette companies running smoking cessation ads and campaigns.  It's not that they don't know it's coming or anti-electrification, but it has to be a well-managed migration path because the unintended consequences could be catastrophic (demand, etc)  from both an economic and  stability perspective.   Utility planners need a better understanding of how to model future loads and demand, then tie-in renewables, etc....it ain't an easy feat...not to mention the regulatory environment.

1) State Incentives (it ain't just the south): Electric Car Tax Credits: What's Available? | EnergySage

2) The grid + EV (there are many challenges ahead): Electric Cars Are Coming, and Fast. Is the Nation’s Grid Up to It? - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

[elrodvt]

↑I'll read your articles later and thanks for the info.

Some utilities are much more progressive than others though right? It's my perception Duke is not progressive at all and will need to be dragged along screaming. I hear Duke say they can't do x,y,z because of regs imposed on them by the state. Yet no mention that Duke is one of the top {the top?) contributors to legislators. So, bribe the legislature to pass regulations that prevent them from being more progressive then blame the legislature for not allowing them to move forward. Clever? Do I have that all wrong? You surely know more than I and what I see is mostly anecdotal and could be completely off base.

I come from Vermont where the utilities are leading the way and then Denver where some sections of the state have also taken big steps forward. Why there and not here? I think because they can take bigger risks cause the politicians have their back and believe something has to be done to stop warming and risks just be taken. Not the case here or in most red states though, right?

I guess this has strayed way off topic at this point. I stand by my point that a 7500 incentive for ev in CO is huge and a primary reason they're far ahead of NC (I should look up the numbers but I've read that somewhere) even though their geography is not nearly as favorable. 

[nicholas]

On 3/23/2021 at 3:56 PM, elrodvt said:

^ That and as an enthusiast I'll say that if you have the $'s it's hard to beat the Tesla driving experience.

Hard to beat the driving experience or the technology experience?  I've ridden in a Model 3 and it was fast but extremely sterile and boring.  I mean there wasn't anything wrong with the car, but it didn't excite me in the same way that other cars have.

[elrodvt]

43 minutes ago, nicholas said:

Hard to beat the driving experience or the technology experience?  I've ridden in a Model 3 and it was fast but extremely sterile and boring.  I mean there wasn't anything wrong with the car, but it didn't excite me in the same way that other cars have.

If I compare to sports cars I have owned , such as the Eagle Talon AWD, 911, Vette, Miata (rented that one), i would rather take the S on a track but the sports cars on a mountain road. However, If I limit the comparison to large sedans I have owned (BMW, Audi) nothing  can come close to the Model S. The cornering is perfectly flat, the stock tires and AWD make it very "sticky" and the torque! My GOD the torque! Nothing beats hammering the throttle out of a tight turn into an uphill sweeper and feeling that torque just pulling the car out of the turn. Torque is king! ICE engines just can't compete in that realm. The seats are the most comfortable I have owned and that's important to me. as we do a lot of long trips (well used to and will again soon).

My only complaint is it can feel ponderous, mostly because it's so damn big and has poor sight lines, and the brakes provide little feedback. The brakes don't engender confidence as they can exhibit fade and after a quick run to 100 they don't seem up to slowing the car fast enough.

I do really like the tech as I'm a total geek. As a podcast addict having that all live streaming over their 4g in car modem is priceless. The map with google earth integration and real time traffic is another highlight. The frequent updates over the air are super nice as well. It's liuke Christmas again every month or so. ;-)

 

[KJHburg]

Getting back to roads and highways here is I-485 from the Ballantyne Commons bridge looking towards Rea Rd exit 

[urbanlover568]

Buttigieg: A mileage tax 'shows a lot of promise'

https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/545098-buttigieg-a-mileage-tax-shows-a-lot-of-promise

It looks like folks in Rural/Suburbs and EV owners are about to start paying their fair share for road usage. 

[elrodvt]

4 hours ago, urbanlover568 said:

Buttigieg: A mileage tax 'shows a lot of promise'

https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/545098-buttigieg-a-mileage-tax-shows-a-lot-of-promise

It looks like folks in Rural/Suburbs and EV owners are about to start paying their fair share for road usage. 

So, you've bought the party line that EV owners don't pay their share? Well that's B.S.

In no particular order here are some points to consider:

What about all the carbon pollution avoided by EV owners ? How do ICE owners pay for their carbon pollution? CAFE standards are laughably low with tons of ways to avoid them. There is NO carbon tax.

What about that unless we go all EV in the next decade (plus other even more consequential things like building codes and mandatory efficiency improvements to our existing commercial stock) or so we could be headed for some really nasty weather if not unavoidable extinction level events in a hundred years or so?  How much will that cost to mitigate?? Most EV owners bought as part of their goal to reduce their CO2 pollution footprint. Until warming stops being a political football for the republican party and we can get to work on comprehensive solutions this is all we got. Oh, and putting up solar! Especially in regions, like ours, where coal is still in use

What about the gas tax not being raised in forever and not even coming close to covering the expense of new roads and maintenance? So that deferred maintenance should be paid by the people who took advantage of it right? So, large ICE taxes seem in order it you're concerned about fairness. Right?

How about paying a huge premium for the EV's purchase for the privilege of reducing co2 levels? 

How about having to fund a huge military in order to keep our oil supply lines open? And the nasty bedfellows, like MBS, that necessitates us having?

I can go on and on. Actually I guess I have LOL.

It's pointless though until people recognize global warming for the crisis it is.

[QClifer]

3 hours ago, elrodvt said:

So, you've bought the party line that EV owners don't pay their share? Well that's B.S.

In no particular order here are some points to consider:

What about all the carbon pollution avoided by EV owners ? How do ICE owners pay for their carbon pollution? CAFE standards are laughably low with tons of ways to avoid them. There is NO carbon tax.

What about that unless we go all EV in the next decade (plus other even more consequential things like building codes and mandatory efficiency improvements to our existing commercial stock) or so we could be headed for some really nasty weather if not unavoidable extinction level events in a hundred years or so?  How much will that cost to mitigate?? Most EV owners bought as part of their goal to reduce their CO2 pollution footprint. Until warming stops being a political football for the republican party and we can get to work on comprehensive solutions this is all we got. Oh, and putting up solar! Especially in regions, like ours, where coal is still in use

What about the gas tax not being raised in forever and not even coming close to covering the expense of new roads and maintenance? So that deferred maintenance should be paid by the people who took advantage of it right? So, large ICE taxes seem in order it you're concerned about fairness. Right?

How about paying a huge premium for the EV's purchase for the privilege of reducing co2 levels? 

How about having to fund a huge military in order to keep our oil supply lines open? And the nasty bedfellows, like MBS, that necessitates us having?

I can go on and on. Actually I guess I have LOL.

It's pointless though until people recognize global warming for the crisis it is.

What’s global warming? 

[KJHburg]

Back to roads and highways.  What's missing on Elm Lane and its crossing I-485?  this project continues to move right along.  Today. 

[davidclt]

20 hours ago, elrodvt said:

So, you've bought the party line that EV owners don't pay their share? Well that's B.S.

In no particular order here are some points to consider:

When looking at paying one's "fair share" (ugh! I hate that phrase) in the state of North Carolina, I present this (from Official NCDMV: Vehicle Title & Registration Fees (ncdot.gov)):

It's the equivalent of buying 374 gallons of gas in NC whether EV drivers travel 1 mile or 10,000 miles each year. It's equivalent to a car that averages 32 MPG traveling 12,000 miles a year. So in addition to the excellent points made by @elrodvt, I do believe the EV drivers of NC are paying their "fair share."

[urbanlover568]

3 hours ago, davidclt said:

When looking at paying one's "fair share" (ugh! I hate that phrase) in the state of North Carolina, I present this (from Official NCDMV: Vehicle Title & Registration Fees (ncdot.gov)):

It's the equivalent of buying 374 gallons of gas in NC whether EV drivers travel 1 mile or 10,000 miles each year. It's equivalent to a car that averages 32 MPG traveling 12,000 miles a year. So in addition to the excellent points made by @elrodvt, I do believe the EV drivers of NC are paying their "fair share."

The average gas user drives almost double of what you stated. Buttigieg hit the nail on the head. We do need a per mile tax for EV's and Gas cars. We need to disincentivize driving in all forms to stem Global Warming's effects. 

[elrodvt]

1 hour ago, urbanlover568 said:

The average gas user drives almost double of what you stated. Buttigieg hit the nail on the head. We do need a per mile tax for EV's and Gas cars. We need to disincentivize driving in all forms to stem Global Warming's effects. 

You stated ev drivers don't pay their fair share. Not true.

I agree we need to prioritize public transit. I love traveling in countries with good train service. The usa is a very painful place to travel on short or medium range trips. I suppose long range too given how many decrepit airports are have.