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Traffic Congestion and Highway Construction

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9 minutes ago, elrodvt said:

You stated ev drivers don't pay their fair share. Not true.

I agree we need to prioritize public transit. I love traveling in countries with good train service. The usa is a very painful place to travel on short or medium range trips. I suppose long range too given how many decrepit airports are have.

They do. They use power and that comes from mostly non-renewable resources. As well as Gas drivers. We ALL need to make a monetary investment to the Government for the sake of the environment. I praise Buttigieg's tax increase proposal. 

Edited by urbanlover568

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Typical. Don't respond to a single point that was made regarding how ev owners pay more.  Seem to remember that pattern  early on in the covid thread. Moving on. 

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1 hour ago, urbanlover568 said:

The average gas user drives almost double of what you stated. Buttigieg hit the nail on the head. We do need a per mile tax for EV's and Gas cars. We need to disincentivize driving in all forms to stem Global Warming's effects. 

Can you provide a source for the average driver driving almost 24,000 miles each year?

The Average Miles Driven per Year in the United States (idrivesafely.com) 13,500 miles (not "almost double [12,000]" only 12% higher, not 25%, not 50% much less almost 100%)
What is Average Mileage Per Year? (caranddriver.com) reports the same DOT provided 13,500
Alternative Fuels Data Center: Maps and Data - Average Annual Vehicle Miles Traveled by Major Vehicle Category (energy.gov) reports ~11,500 miles for cars and light trucks 4% lower than 12,000.

So I'm wondering what source you're using (besides anecdote) for the claim that, The average gas user drives almost double [12,000 miles per annum]?

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30 minutes ago, elrodvt said:

Typical. Don't respond to a single point that was made regarding how ev owners pay more.  Seem to remember that pattern  early on in the covid thread. Moving on. 

Again, We ALL need to make a monetary investment to the Government for the sake of the environment. I praise Buttigieg's tax increase proposal.  Sorry, but Trump isn't the President anymore. Taxes will go up and I will pay mine honorably. 

5 hours ago, davidclt said:

When looking at paying one's "fair share" (ugh! I hate that phrase) in the state of North Carolina, I present this (from Official NCDMV: Vehicle Title & Registration Fees (ncdot.gov)):

image.thumb.png.3b92f9a17fa82153c73181f110bcd72a.png

It's the equivalent of buying 374 gallons of gas in NC whether EV drivers travel 1 mile or 10,000 miles each year. It's equivalent to a car that averages 32 MPG traveling 12,000 miles a year. So in addition to the excellent points made by @elrodvt, I do believe the EV drivers of NC are paying their "fair share."

 

2 hours ago, urbanlover568 said:

The average gas user drives almost double of what you stated. Buttigieg hit the nail on the head. We do need a per mile tax for EV's and Gas cars. We need to disincentivize driving in all forms to stem Global Warming's effects. 

Quote

When we divide 2015's consumption of 140.43 billion gallons across those roughly 214 million licensed drivers, it adds up to 656 gallons per driver.

where is the federal mileage tax on EV owner's power bill? 

Edited by urbanlover568
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1 hour ago, urbanlover568 said:

Again, We ALL need to make a monetary investment to the Government for the sake of the environment. I praise Buttigieg's tax increase proposal.  Sorry, but Trump isn't the President anymore. Taxes will go up and I will pay mine honorably. 

Quote

 

When we divide 2015's consumption of 140.43 billion gallons across those roughly 214 million licensed drivers, it adds up to 656 gallons per driver.

where is the federal mileage tax on EV owner's power bill? 

So basically you conflated gallons consumed per driver to miles traveled, not accounting for the number of vehicles that consume in fuel at a greater rate (lower MPG) than the average - I think you're misinterpreting the number.

Regarding paying a "fair share" (ugh what a load of crap) at the federal level, it doesn't happen but taxes are levied at the point consumed for the electricity consumed within a given state. So if I understand your point, you feel at the federal level, EVs aren't paying for their use like gasoline and diesel powered vehicles are, am I understanding your convoluted point?

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On 3/28/2021 at 11:13 PM, davidclt said:

So basically you conflated gallons consumed per driver to miles traveled, not accounting for the number of vehicles that consume in fuel at a greater rate (lower MPG) than the average - I think you're misinterpreting the number.

Regarding paying a "fair share" (ugh what a load of crap) at the federal level, it doesn't happen but taxes are levied at the point consumed for the electricity consumed within a given state. So if I understand your point, you feel at the federal level, EVs aren't paying for their use like gasoline and diesel powered vehicles are, am I understanding your convoluted point?

EV's typically pay higher state registration taxes in order to make up for this difference. Also the impact on their use is MUCH lower than larger gas powered tractor trailers, trucks and SUVs.

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Here's a simple solution to make a difference now: raise the flippin' federal gas tax that hasn't been increased in nearly 30 years to compensate for inflation and improved fuel economy. It already exists, you pay for what you use, and WHOA, billions of dollars in additional revenue every year, just-like-that. No new convoluted system that will require years and millions of dollars to study and implement.

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1 hour ago, cowboy_wilhelm said:

Here's a simple solution to make a difference now: raise the flippin' federal gas tax that hasn't been increased in nearly 30 years to compensate for inflation and improved fuel economy. It already exists, you pay for what you use, and WHOA, billions of dollars in additional revenue every year, just-like-that. No new convoluted system that will require years and millions of dollars to study and implement.

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Sounds good to me EXCEPT > Tax=BAD. This is the simplistic mantra of 1/2 our congress. So, i don't see this happening. Plus there are state gas taxes to deal with as well. No way can we expect red state legislatures to do something this logical.

In a perfect world  we would  tear up the existing methods and invent a new best method : (same issues with red states and congress apply though)

  • The gas  tax is quite regressive as it takes a lot higher percentage of a poor persons income to drive. and we need to fix that. Think there needs to be some graduated fee which is based on the persons gross income. For example  0-40K no tax, 41K to 100K fee multiplier of 0. Above 100 multiplier of 2. etc..
  • The new user fee should take into account both CO2 pollution and how much is stresses the road (weight). 

That would lead us to a yearly tax of X miles * income multiplier * Co2 multiplier * possibly a weight value.

Seems simple and I suspect if we looked at Europe we would find a similar approach we can just copy. That would make the republican come back of how this will destroy all mankind tougher since it's working in other places. Although they seem to be able to avoid that argument with gun laws so who knows.  If you're being bribed by lobbies it's tough to predict behavior. 

Now, I realize this would mean an EV pays nothing and neither do the poor (the CO2 multiplier or income multiplier is 0) beyond a base registration fee. That is what taxes are in part for -  To get people to behave in a manner that is good for society.  It also reflects the huge penalty gas powered vehicles should have incurred over the past century and that should be paid back until ICE cars are dead. 

One more thing - If you don't register a car public transit should be free.

Edited by elrodvt
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4 hours ago, elrodvt said:

That would lead us to a yearly tax of X miles * income multiplier * Co2 multiplier * possibly a weight value.

Seems simple and I suspect if we looked at Europe we would find a similar approach we can just copy. That would make the republican come back of how this will destroy all mankind tougher since it's working in other places. 

Now, I realize this would mean an EV pays nothing and neither do the poor (the CO2 multiplier or income multiplier is 0) beyond a base registration fee. That is what taxes are in part for -  To get people to behave in a manner that is good for society.  It also reflects the huge penalty gas powered vehicles should have incurred over the past century and that should be paid back until ICE cars are dead. 

One more thing - If you don't register a car public transit should be free.

I like this idea mostly but it doesn't account for American Exceptionalism, "just because it works somewhere else doesn't mean it will work here." (said by the person who thinks if the food laws are good enough for Europe, Canada, Mexico, other Central American countries, they should be adequate for here without fiddly relabeling or ingredient replacement to satiate the FDA - as someone who ate enough soft cheese in Guatemala to wind up in the ED severely ill but it was oh so good!).

Additionally, I do think EV drivers should pay something ($) but ICE drivers should pay something ($$$+) because in fact the CO2 multiplier for EVs isn't 0, but some fraction >0  unless one can guarantee their power is coming only from renewable or nuclear sources (assuming the cost of carbon in constructing those sources going forward were captured at point of creation).

I am on-board with free public transit if there is not a vehicle registered in or on-behalf of your name as well.

Edited by davidclt
Add sarcasm color to text
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People pay the most taxes out of their paycheck (payroll), at the time of checkout (sales), and at the pump (gas).  Still, all of these go mostly unnoticed and are easy to collect. Change to a VMT-based tax or other complicated formula that feels like filing your income taxes, and it'll be just as deeply unpopular.

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On 3/31/2021 at 2:07 PM, elrodvt said:

 

Sounds good to me EXCEPT > Tax=BAD. This is the simplistic mantra of 1/2 our congress. So, i don't see this happening. Plus there are state gas taxes to deal with as well. No way can we expect red state legislatures to do something this logical.

 

Grumbles at a mileage tax while posting this. LOL 

Pot calling the Kettle black | Kettle, Judge quotes, Black quotes

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↑What're you trying to say? My comments about a mileage tax evidently went right over your head.  Do you care to rebut any points I made or just (as usual) toss out meaningless comments such as this? 

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Getting back to congestion here is a list of the worst bottlenecks for trucks in the USA.  Only one place in Charlotte is on the list #82  I-485 and I-85.   And a bottleneck for trucks is congested for everyone.   Sadly I have been through many many of these spots. 

Notice how many are in Tennessee and in Nashville in particular and of course Atlanta has quite a few.  I have told you Nashville is much more congested than Charlotte.

atri-2021-top-truck-bottleneck-list-executive-summary.pdf (bizj.us)

here is a map to see the bottleneck spots by state even easier

Top 100 Truck Bottlenecks – 2021 – TruckingResearch.org

Edited by KJHburg
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I-77 bridge over Catawba River southbound lanes will be closing in early May for 3 weeks and big delays are anticipated. 

Image

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7 hours ago, KJHburg said:

Getting back to congestion here is a list of the worst bottlenecks for trucks in the USA.  Only one place in Charlotte is on the list #82  I-485 and I-85.   And a bottleneck for trucks is congested for everyone.   Sadly I have been through many many of these spots. 

Notice how many are in Tennessee and in Nashville in particular and of course Atlanta has quite a few.  I have told you Nashville is much more congested than Charlotte.

atri-2021-top-truck-bottleneck-list-executive-summary.pdf (bizj.us)

here is a map to see the bottleneck spots by state even easier

Top 100 Truck Bottlenecks – 2021 – TruckingResearch.org

That interchange has turned into such a cluster. It seems like any time of the day it is backed up now. There's no way NCDOT can wait until 2027 to start that project (I-6016). It's a shame that the Sam Wilson Rd. overpass is too narrow to accommodate any additional lanes since the structure looks to be in pretty good condition.

Are there any plans to relocate the southbound weigh station?

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I was on I-77 today. What a goat screw that road is. It was awful 30 miles north of Charlotte. Of course, I'm not from the area so maybe it isn't usually that bad. I guess I was surprised how much traffic, and how many slow downs there were for a Thursday early afternoon. If I was smart enough to figure it out I guess I could have used the express lanes :tw_grin:.

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20 hours ago, elrodvt said:

↑What're you trying to say? My comments about a mileage tax evidently went right over your head.  Do you care to rebut any points I made or just (as usual) toss out meaningless comments such as this? 

I am a proud Tesla owner and am willing to pay my fair share with a Millage tax. It's not fair that folks pay gas taxes and I only need to pay my power bill. It's not right that I can use the federal roads for free while gas cars can't. 

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You always do the same thing. Someone takes the time to make specific points and you refuse to address them. Doesn't make for much of a conversation. Often you don't seem to have even read or comprehended what was said. You exhibited the same behavior in the corona thread. Waste of time, moving on.

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16 minutes ago, elrodvt said:

You always do the same thing. Someone takes the time to make specific points and you refuse to address them. Doesn't make for much of a conversation. Often you don't seem to have even read or comprehended what was said. You exhibited the same behavior in the corona thread. Waste of time, moving on.

Bye Felicia :tw_thumbsup: 

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43 minutes ago, carolinaboy said:

I was on I-77 today. What a goat screw that road is. It was awful 30 miles north of Charlotte. Of course, I'm not from the area so maybe it isn't usually that bad. I guess I was surprised how much traffic, and how many slow downs there were for a Thursday early afternoon. If I was smart enough to figure it out I guess I could have used the express lanes :tw_grin:.

Got to know when to hop on the express lanes and when to hop off.  I always look at traffic maps before heading up but usually slowdowns around exits 25-30 then it speeds up north of the lake. 

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13 minutes ago, KJHburg said:

Got to know when to hop on the express lanes and when to hop off.  I always look at traffic maps before heading up but usually slowdowns around exits 25-30 then it speeds up north of the lake. 

What's bizarre is the backups seem to have inversed during covid. Outbound is worse in the mornings and inbound worse in the evenings.

But yes, I always always check Google traffic first.

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