Traffic Congestion and Highway Construction

[Spartan]

Perhaps, but to me that looks like a "bypass" type of project (unless they aren't done with it) and it was not funded under the "loop road" list that is building highway loops around the large cities in North Carolina.

It's a loop road. Built and funded with the same idea as all loop roads. Before it was officially designated it was called the "Charlotte Inner Loop". (485 was known as the outer loop) and is often referred to even today in these terms. I don't think you have proved your generalization that loop roads don't relieve congestion.

And you have not proven your generalization that they do "if the local municipality enforces zoning to prevent development around these roads." I-277 being a retrofit project does not fall within your exception statement (which I quoted in the previous sentence) since the built environment was already established when it was constructed. You also assume that other cities that are getting loop roads are doing so with the same 'agreement' with NCDOT that Charlotte did (which I doubt is occuring).

[monsoon]

^You said "First of all, loop roads have been proven to do nothing to relieve congestion in the long run. ". That is an opinion not based in fact as I gave you two examples where loop roads have relieved congestion. How they were funded is irrelevant and an attempt to distract from the point. Loop roads, like any road, and for that matter any transit, fail in their purpose when the local governments don't properly control development around them. The NCDOT builds loop roads with that assumption in mind and with the agreement from the locals. but when this bargain isn't kept is when there is trouble.

You asked for the reason why they are still building them, and this is the answer to your question. They believe them to be congestion reducers. When a city stands up and says they don't want them then I assume the NCDOT will stop the building.

[RiverwoodCLT]

I can tell you one thing, since I485 connects I77 South and I485 connects I85 north and south, I have seen a big reduction of trucks on Independence Blvd form Matthews to uptown. I believe it does help. What you are looking at is how development has grown at the exits.

Edited July 23, 2008 by RiverwoodCLT

[monsoon]

Loop roads do relieve congestion. The problem of course is the cities they surround should have never been allowed to develop in such a manner to require them in the first place. Charlotte is a case book study of this.

The NCDOT is also been very complicit in the manner too. They are an organization that builds roads and thus, salivates over multi-decade projects like I-485. I have contended for a long time this organization should be disbanded and control over road building turned back over to the counties.

[Spartan]

^You said "First of all, loop roads have been proven to do nothing to relieve congestion in the long run. ". That is an opinion not based in fact as I gave you two examples where loop roads have relieved congestion. How they were funded is irrelevant and an attempt to distract from the point. Loop roads, like any road, and for that matter any transit, fail in their purpose when the local governments don't properly control development around them. The NCDOT builds loop roads with that assumption in mind and with the agreement from the locals. but when this bargain isn't kept is when there is trouble.

You asked for the reason why they are still building them, and this is the answer to your question. They believe them to be congestion reducers. When a city stands up and says they don't want them then I assume the NCDOT will stop the building.

You gave me one example: I-277. One could also argue that 277, while relieving its own congestion from the old Independence Blvd alignment, actually creates more choke points into uptown, thus redistributing congestion on other roads. I can't prove that, but just travel around center city at rush hour. Independence still gets backed up, so I'm not sure how much good its done. That may be a different topic though.

My opinion, however, is rooted in fact, and yours is rooted in an idealistic principle. Is the city at fault? Probably. But in the real world, you are not going to find and economically viable city with a "loop road" that actually serves the purpose of relieving congestion (assuming that is the intent of the road). This is because new roads attract new development (darn that landuse/transportation relationship), and in any successful city, you will find that new development will never be discouraged. Its a quite simple and perhaps unfortunate fact that we must all deal with. My facts are validated in that 1) nobody has been able to cite an example of a city where your scenario has occurred and 2) I can cite plenty of examples of the opposite if needed, but I think that we all know what they are.

I do agree with your assessment as to why NCDOT keeps building them though. To elaborate, NCDOT fails to recognize that transportation influences the built environment. This is planning 101. Build a new transportation project in an economically successful city and ye shall have new development. If NCDOT still actually takes on new loop roads with the idea that no new development will occur around it, then they are much worse of a DOT than I realized.

I suppose my original question was more directed at the actual policies NCDOT has in place rather than this philosophical debate.

[monsoon]

You gave me one example: I-277. ....

You didn't read my post, but here is it is again I-485 has done a lot to reduce congestion in NE Charlotte. That is because the city has been much more restrictive of the development around that road vs what they allowed over the older section between I-77S and Providence Rd. New development can ONLY occur with the support of local government through zoning. I am not sure what you are missing about this because it is a pretty simple idea I thought.

[Otto]

My question is why does NC still have a loop program? First of all, loop roads have been proven to do nothing to relieve congestion in the long run. Second why do random small towns like Gastonia need a loop? I would like to see what NCDOT's criteria are for funding loop projects, especially for places like Fayetteville, when there are so many other ACTUAL needs that go unmet in this state like Chief mentioned (eg: bridge replacement).

Its one thing to propose a new road to meet future demand, its another thing entirely to fund roads that are not needed. It seems to me that using the Fayetteville example from that article, NCDOT could build a road to better connect to 95 while not needing to circumnavigate the entire city.

The Charlotte Observer article is somewhat misleading. Question, what was the first section of the Charlotte Outer Loop to be open for traffic? A small connector from I-85 to US 29....the I-85 interchange is currently exit 48. Truly no different than the first section of the Fayetteville Loop. Consider Fayetteville, a city of approximately 150,000+ citizens. Main economic engine of the region is Ft. Bragg with over 40,000 soldiers and many civilians working and living there.....and around the Fayetteville area. There is one 4-lane freeway (the All-American), two arterials (Bragg Blvd and Murchison Road) that provide the best access to the base. All American Freeway does not connect to any other controlled access facility. Bragg Blvd and Murchison Rd and laced with strip malls, neighborhoods, car dealerships, etc, etc....similar to Independence Blvd. If you live on the other side of Fayetteville, consider your drive to Ft. Bragg like driving from Monroe to uptown Charlotte. There is not freeway interconnectivity. Now consider the number visitors, vendors, military deliveries of supplies, ammunition, equipment, and personnel that have to somehow get from I-95, US 13, NC 87, NC 24, US 401 to the installation. When your economic engine draws over 50,000 people a day...it is important to provide ample access to that facility....that just so happens to be the size of a small city. If one....would actually look at a map of Fayetteville....one would recognize that in order to connect I-95 to Ft. Bragg, they would literally plow through the city...unless they go around.

The purpose of the Garden Parkway (Gastonia Loop) is really to provide an altenative to widening I-85 through Gaston County. Is it needed??? Check out the alternative analysis report on the NCTA site....I've read it. You weigh the cost of replacing all of the bridges over I-85 and widening all of the bridges that I-85 go over.....utility relocations...interchange revisions...right of way impacts....stream mitigation costs versus a brand new freeway versus the potential for commuter rail.

[Spartan]

You didn't read my post, but here is it is again I-485 has done a lot to reduce congestion in NE Charlotte. That is because the city has been much more restrictive of the development around that road vs what they allowed over the older section between I-77S and Providence Rd. New development can ONLY occur with the support of local government through zoning. I am not sure what you are missing about this because it is a pretty simple idea I thought.

I understand exactly what you are saying. To paraphrase: you are qualifying your argument by making the assumption that the local governments (not just Charlotte) should prevent development along new highways in order for them to actually relieve congestion. I don't disagree with that because in principle you are right. My argument all along has been that looking at all examples from around the country, there is not an uncongested loop freeway, so in the long run unless we see a major policy change, we'll get built out and 485 will be just as congested as every other loop freeway in the nation. Freeways to date have attracted only one type of development.... low density sprawl.

[Raintree21]

The Charlotte Observer article is somewhat misleading. Question, what was the first section of the Charlotte Outer Loop to be open for traffic? A small connector from I-85 to US 29....the I-85 interchange is currently exit 48. Truly no different than the first section of the Fayetteville Loop.

That's actually not true. The first section of 485 opened in southern Mecklenburg. The section you mention as being first to open was not build until 9 years later.

[monsoon]

^Indeed the first section terminated at I-77 South and went east. It would be many years later until it connected to I-85.

[Otto]

That's actually not true. The first section of 485 opened in southern Mecklenburg. The section you mention as being first to open was not build until 9 years later.

Actually, I would beg to differ. The section that I am referring to (the I-85/US 29 Connector) was constructed in 1967 along with I-85. It originally consisted of a trumpet interchange at I-85 and a trumpet interchange at US 29. In August 1989, the Federal EIS for TIP Project R-2123 was signed. It was the environmental planning document for the entire Charlotte Eastern Loop from I-85 to US 74. In April 1992 right of way acquisition began for sections of eastern loop covered in the EIS....include right of way for an eventual new interchange at the location of exit 48. In August 2000, sections CB and CD of TIP R-2123 opened between I-85 and NC 49. This tied the trumpet interchange at I-85 (existing exit 48) which was not upgraded into the new I-485 that ran along the same alignment as the I-85/US 29 connector. Which means, the I-85/US 29 connector was upgraded and incorporated in I-485. So, that solitary segment, eventually became a part of an entire loop over the course of .....hmmm 40 years and counting. See pictures below. Again, this is no different that the section of I-540 that initially ran from I-40 to US 70 near RDU Airport or I-295 which runs from I-95 to connect with US 401 north of Fayetteville.

Charlotte definitely has its share of traffic woes....but doesn't everybody....relatively speaking. Yes Charlotte has more people and more clogged freeways than anywhere else in NC. Does that still mean that Fayetteville's need for connectivity and regional mobility are not important?

Let's look at it this way then. I-77 south of Uptown carries over 160K vpd....most likely the busiest section in NC. I-80 over the San Francisco Bay Bridge carries over 280K....I-95 over the George Washington carries over 300k vpd in and out of NYC....and don't get me started on I-10, I-405 or I-110 in southern California. With that said, should all the federal highway dollars go to these huge metros of 5million, 19 million, and 13 million respectively. Or should the one with the 160K vpd freeway and 1.5 million metro population get their share of dollars too? Something to think about.

[uptownliving]

Yes that bridge is old and is still used today....but the actual first segment of "signed" 485 to open was between South Blvd and Hwy 51 back in the 90s.

[JerseyBoy]

Charlotte definitely has its share of traffic woes....but doesn't everybody....relatively speaking. Yes Charlotte has more people and more clogged freeways than anywhere else in NC. Does that still mean that Fayetteville's need for connectivity and regional mobility are not important?

I think what most of us on here are unhappy with is the fact that Fayetteville jumped ahead of other cities who had been waiting for long amounts of time to have their projects built. For example, Winston's beltway was initially proposed in the late '60s. For years residents of Forsyth County have been used to hearing the DOT mutter their annual phrase of "we just don't have the money, but we'll start construction in 2010." Year after year it gets delayed to 2012, then to 2014, and (I believe) now 2016. Now, ironically, Fayetteville had secured the funds for a 4-lane interstate bypass in a matter of a few years. Cronyism or a "legitimate need?" I'll let you decide...

[monsoon]

Actually, I would beg to differ. The section that I am referring to (the I-85/US 29 Connector) was constructed in 1967 along with I-85. It originally consisted of a trumpet interchange at I-85 and a trumpet interchange at US 29. In August 1989, the Federal EIS for TIP Project R-2123 was signed. It was the environmental planning document for the entire Charlotte Eastern Loop from I-85 to US 74. In April 1992 right of way acquisition began for sections of eastern loop covered in the EIS....include right of way for an eventual new interchange at the location of exit 48.

Your assertion that the 1967 connector was built as part of a future I-485 is completely wrong. That connector has been there for a long time and when I was going to UNCC in the early 1980s, there were no markers there for it being I-485. I will also point out that at that time they also built exactly the same kind of trumpet interchange closer in just north of Sugar Creek that connected I-85 to NC-29. (near the 49/29 split) That was supposed to be where the future I-485 was supposed to go because the plans for the Outer Beltway in those days would have routed it generally where Charlotte 4 runs. This is also why the exchange of Eastway Drive and Independence Blvd was built as a full freeway cloverleaf. This road did not happen due to extreme protests from the mostly middle class eastern and south eastern Charlotte neighborhoods of the day.

Finally in August 1989 when they did decide to include the second loop as part if I-485, (the one you are referring to) the first section of I-485 was already under construction.

[orulz]

I think what most of us on here are unhappy with is the fact that Fayetteville jumped ahead of other cities who had been waiting for long amounts of time to have their projects built. For example, Winston's beltway was initially proposed in the late '60s. For years residents of Forsyth County have been used to hearing the DOT mutter their annual phrase of "we just don't have the money, but we'll start construction in 2010." Year after year it gets delayed to 2012, then to 2014, and (I believe) now 2016. Now, ironically, Fayetteville had secured the funds for a 4-lane interstate bypass in a matter of a few years. Cronyism or a "legitimate need?" I'll let you decide...

Due to BRAC I'm leaning towards the side of legitimate need, but there's probably been a few political strings pulled in the process too.

[Otto]

Your assertion that the 1967 connector was built as part of a future I-485 is completely wrong. That connector has been there for a long time and when I was going to UNCC in the early 1980s, there were no markers there for it being I-485. I will also point out that at that time they also built exactly the same kind of trumpet interchange closer in just north of Sugar Creek that connected I-85 to NC-29. (near the 49/29 split) That was supposed to be where the future I-485 was supposed to go because the plans for the Outer Beltway in those days would have routed it generally where Charlotte 4 runs. This is also why the exchange of Eastway Drive and Independence Blvd was built as a full freeway cloverleaf. This road did not happen due to extreme protests from the mostly middle class eastern and south eastern Charlotte neighborhoods of the day.

Finally in August 1989 when they did decide to include the second loop as part if I-485, (the one you are referring to) the first section of I-485 was already under construction.

In January 1979, a Draft EIS for the widening of I-85 from four to six lanes from NC 273 to the US 29/NC 49 connector (TIP Project I-301) was signed. In that EIS signed in 1979, you will find a thoroughfare plan map labeled figure 16. On that thoroughfare plan map you will see black dashed line with a green dashed line overlaying it surrounding Charlotte roughly along the same route that existing I-485 runs. The dashed line identifies facilities that are proposed. The thickness of the green dash line identifies the facility as a freeway or as a major street. One will also notice that the route in south Charlotte actually was shown running north of NC 51 for its entire route. You will also see a short solid line (identifying an existing facility) connecting I-85 and US 29 (I-85/US 29 Connector) north of Mallard Creek Road. You will also notice that the same dashed green line used to identify the proposed Outerbelt corridor also overlays the short solid line connecting I-85 to US 29. I never stated which was first signed. I stated that the connector was constructed and there was always an intent on incorporating it in the the Charlotte Outerloop. This means that short segments....regardless of how insignificant they may seem...as long as there is logical termini and independent utility can play a role in a transportation network until funding becomes available and the segment is connected to the remainder of the network.

Once I figure out how to attach a non-url picture I will post the map.

[uptownliving]

Due to BRAC I'm leaning towards the side of legitimate need, but there's probably been a few political strings pulled in the process too.

BRAC realignment is a one time deal...the amount of people moving to Fayetteville because of BRAC is less than the amount that move to Wake and Mecklenburg every year. Now if Fayetteville were having a BRAC realignment every year that was adding 30,000 people every year...then I think they would have a case. It doesn't make any sense to me that Wake is forced to make their loop a toll road to finish it out whereas Fayyetteville gets a non toll road and basically jumped in front of Wake and Mecklenburg and the Triad to receive that money.

[RiverwoodCLT]

I think I smell something is wrong. No one is saying that Fayetteville does not need a loop road; it is how this was done. Other larger cities in NC pay a ton of fuel taxes and they only get a smaller portion back, so small towns in North Carolina can have nice roads too. This make makes the larger metro areas mad when promises are not keep and project to smaller cites are put up front of them.

Wake MSA and Mecklenburg MSA get in 2 years the population of Fayetteville. When Wake MSA and Mecklenburg MSA get road money push back by the Federal Govt. for not meeting air quality because of inadequate roads, this does not set well with people living in these cities.

Edited July 24, 2008 by RiverwoodCLT

[Neo]

When Wake MSA and Mecklenburg MSA get road money push back by the Federal Govt. for not meeting air quality because of inadequate roads, this does not set well with people living in these cities.

I'm not sure that this is an accurate statement. Look at Atlanta for goodness sake...16 and 20 lane highways have only made things worse for them.

Imagine if NC put all of the loop funds into funding for mass transit for these cities instead.

[Spartan]

I think I smell something is wrong. No one is saying that Fayetteville does not need a loop road; it is how this was done. Other larger cities in NC pay a ton of fuel taxes and they only get a smaller portion back, so small towns in North Carolina can have nice roads too. This make makes the larger metro areas mad when promises are not keep and project to smaller cites are put up front of them.

No thats pretty much exactly what I was saying, albeit indirectly. Fayetteville should get its share of the money, but it should be in the form of a more useful project or projects. I don't think they should direct more money to Charlotte. Smaller towns shouldn't suffer just because of NCDOT's bad planning. Based on that article it sounds like they just need a new connection to I-95, so why not build a new "spur" road or two, and invest the rest into some other projects that Fayetteville needs. I am confident that given NCDOT's budget shortfalls in every other part of the state that they have some unmet transportation needs that the money could go towards.

[Otto]

No thats pretty much exactly what I was saying, albeit indirectly. Fayetteville should get its share of the money, but it should be in the form of a more useful project or projects. I don't think they should direct more money to Charlotte. Smaller towns shouldn't suffer just because of NCDOT's bad planning. Based on that article it sounds like they just need a new connection to I-95, so why not build a new "spur" road or two, and invest the rest into some other projects that Fayetteville needs. I am confident that given NCDOT's budget shortfalls in every other part of the state that they have some unmet transportation needs that the money could go towards.

I'm definitely not defending Fayetteville....as I am from New Bern. However, if one looks at the current I-295 (future) and the next segment of the Fayetteville loop to open....it really is just a spur from I-95 to Fort Bragg. The Hope Mills section will not be constructed for some time.

One must also recognize how NCDOT operates. Funding and project priorities are dictated by a group of appointed individuals called the Board of Transportation.....business owners, judges, political fund raisers appointed by the governor. The issue isn't the designers or the planners, the issue is the ones controlling priorities.

Definitely has it's issues....I remember before there was an outer loop in Charlotte....it was terribly painful to get around. As CATS continues to push the commuter rail, light rail, and BRT programs....citizens will need to embrace these ideas as you can't lane your way out of congestion. The cure to congestion is lifestyle changes and reducing the number of cars on the road. A healthy combination of multiple modes of transportation is necessary.

[uptownliving]

The Saga of the Lights on I-77 continues. Theives have struck again and stolen copper wiring out of the lights the DOT is repairing on I-77 downtown. This time it was the lights around La Salle St. The DOT rep stated that if this type of activity continues they might just abandon the lighting project.

News14 Story on the Stolen Copper wire.

If they ever catch who is doing this they should make them walk up and down I-77 picking up trash for at least 30 days. And put them in jail for the rest of their life.

[tozmervo]

Or we could figure out that street lights on the interstate aren't that important and move on to more pressing issues.

[Raintree21]

Or we could figure out that street lights on the interstate aren't that important and move on to more pressing issues.

Seems like everyone keeps complaining about the lights like it is the most pressing issue though. Personally, I just use my headlights and obey the speed limit signs on off ramps and don't have any issues.

[Spartan]

I thought NCDOT was going to use "tamper-proof" locks of some kind? I swear thats what I heard on the news the last time this happened.