Traffic Congestion and Highway Construction

[monsoon]

Yeah long term plan is to make it 8 lanes all the way to Exit 36. This money could pay for that or at least to Exit 30. It really needs to be that way all the way to I-40.

[fortyniner]

There is also the "somewhat impending" plan to open the shoulders of I-485 South to traffic.

If any of these so-called "excess funds" were to be used to widen I-485 South, wouldn't that just make the plan to use the shoulders irrelevant, and a waste of time and dollars?

Originally, Billy Graham Parkway was supposed to be limited access, with interchanges, not traffic signals. The State decided to save some money and only the Tyvola interchange was ever built. Are any local officials ever going to call the State's hand on this one? What about Brookshire Freeway? It was supposed to be a freeway all the way north of I-85. Instead, we have the Bellhaven Blvd. merger with the Brookshire. What about the freeway entrance from I-85 to the airport terminal? Charlotteans need to demand what is already rightfully theirs be built.

I do agree the MOST pressing needs are I-77 widening (north, then south), and I-85 widening to the Yadkin River. The CDOT needs to send the NCDOT a bill for past due late charges!

[dubone]

Billy Graham Parkway absolutely should not get upgraded in my view. NCDOT has been far too obsessed with building freeways everywhere. We don't want to be like Greensboro with every major thoroughfare a substandard freeway.

While it would be interesting to throw I77 North into the mix, there is significantly more economic benefit to be had from widening 85, which is the backbone of the state's auto-transportation system. 77 is certainly an important roadway within the Charlotte area.

I'm sure there will be a fight, though. I do suspect that 85 will end up leading.

[tiblerbrit]

Even though I agree that I-85 through Cabarrus is the most important, should Charlotte DOT really use its money outside of Mecklenburg? Widening the highways in Cabarrus might only promote more companies to move FROM the Charlotte area. Investing in infrastructure outside the city limits will only promote more sprawl.

[monsoon]

^Indeed. I-85 is already 8 lanes in Mecklenburg border to border. The same should happen to I-77. They should make the last leg of I-485 a toll road.

[ChiefJoJo]

First, it should be noted that the 2009 state legislature must uphold the $24M budget commitment next year for the money to remain available that frees up the $180M. IIRC, only the current annual budget (FY 09) can be considered obligated.

I tend to agree that I-85 should be the top priority. It's the most critical interstate in NC, and there are only a few more unimproved lengths to go. (FYI, the Yadkin bridge looks like it will be funded and built thru tolls.)

I can make a strong argument that I-77N is largely a commuter highway for suburban Lake Norman, Mooresville, Statesville residents to be able to move further out and still be able to commute into Charlotte. Then you have the VLN project in the works, which will widen the road to 6-lanes to Cornelius, and you have the North Commuter rail which should at least take a little pressure off some of the rate of growth of traffic to the north.

We should know a lot more when the next Governor is elected and legislature takes up transportation reform/funding and the '10 budget.

[AuLukey]

Even though I agree that I-85 through Cabarrus is the most important, should Charlotte DOT really use its money outside of Mecklenburg? Widening the highways in Cabarrus might only promote more companies to move FROM the Charlotte area. Investing in infrastructure outside the city limits will only promote more sprawl.

While you make a valid point, this money was never meant to be spent in Mecklenburg, it was being saved up to fund a project in Monroe.

I agree that widening any highway only further promotes sprawl in the long run. However, as dubone said, 77 is almost all commuter as there is very little need for through traffic along its line. However, there are many major metros in this region connected by 85 that do rely on it for commerce. While I dread the day that there will be more cars on 85, it makes the most sense to widen the last stretch 85 to improve commerce for the Triad, the Triangle, the Charlotte metro, Atlanta, & Greenville/Spartanburg. Widening northern 77 would pretty much only benefit the northern suburbs, Statesville, and possibly Columbia were somebody trying to drive north of Charlotte from there.

IMO, rather than widening southern 485, there should be additional connectors built in that part of town to promote people taking something other than 485 to get home. The very idea of the belt is ludicrous, it is such a waste. I understand bypasses, but not belts. They promote one thing, and that's lots and lots of sprawl. By widening it, you are only encouraging it even more. If other collector or connecting roads were built, there could be alternative routes for people to get home and there wouldn't be such a concentrated mess on the interstate. I'd hate to imagine northern 85 without highway 29 and 49 headed in the same direction.

[dubone]

Even though I agree that I-85 through Cabarrus is the most important, should Charlotte DOT really use its money outside of Mecklenburg? Widening the highways in Cabarrus might only promote more companies to move FROM the Charlotte area. Investing in infrastructure outside the city limits will only promote more sprawl.

This is Charlotte's division (Division 10) of NCDOT, which covers Anson, Cabarrus, Mecklenburg, Stanly and Union. I'm not sure exactly how they determine priority amongst those counties, but the fact is that money that our division set aside for a bypass in Union was money not spent in Cabarrus, Mecklenburg or the two more rural counties. However, it is important to note that 85 in Cabarrus and 74 in Union both are interregional roads that are primarily needing to be expanded BECAUSE of Charlotte's drivers leaving and coming back to the city. Obviously there are some through-drivers and some local drivers, but you get the idea.

85 in Cabarrus will never be expanded unless it is prioritized over other roads in those 5 counties. That is, unless the legislature gives money specifically to that project, as the really ought to considering the statewide import of that road.

As to cheifjojo, is there an implicit promise to include this money in the budget even if they can't rely on it legally? If not, isn't it irresponsible to start redestributing the money already allocated? Seems like if that is true, then they shouldn't be doing one big project, but rather provide for a smaller project each year that the legislature comes through.

[monsoon]

......I can make a strong argument that I-77N is largely a commuter highway for suburban Lake Norman, Mooresville, Statesville residents to be able to move further out and still be able to commute into Charlotte. ...

Except that you would be absolutely and completely wrong. I am sure there are plenty of people living in Charlotte that work at the Lowes HQ and the 1000s of other businesses that are located north of the city that would disagree with you. A huge amount of Charlotte's distribution business (6th in the nation) takes place there, there are a tremendous amount of office buildings, there is a steel mill, Carrier, businesses supporting NASCAR, Duke energy, and endless businesses on that road where people make their living. It one of the remaining areas of Mecklenburg where there is still a tremendous amount of growth. Northlake is a prime example of that.

Traffic is now heavy on I-77 day and night and on the weekends, and it is backed up for reverse commuters every day which proves my point. It comes to a crawl every weekend around Exit 30 in Davidson.

I don't want Mecklenburg county money spent widening I-85 25-50 miles from Charlotte. We don't get our fair share of money now, so the I-85 widening needs to be taken care of by the NCDOT general fund. It is interesting that people advocating for that don't even live in this county. Not much of a surprise I guess.

[ChiefJoJo]

As to chiefjojo, is there an implicit promise to include this money in the budget even if they can't rely on it legally? If not, isn't it irresponsible to start redestributing the money already allocated? Seems like if that is true, then they shouldn't be doing one big project, but rather provide for a smaller project each year that the legislature comes through.

Yes, there is an implicit promise, but it might be a little bit presumptious considering that we will have a new administration in Raleigh and a number of new legislators as well. At this point, it is just talk, as the money will not be available for programming until the Monroe project funding is finalized in next year's budget, and we are about 10 months from that point. I think Mr. Moose is beginning to form a plan for if/when that cash becomes available.

I don't want Mecklenburg county money spent widening I-85 25-50 miles from Charlotte. We don't get our fair share of money now, so the I-85 widening needs to be taken care of by the NCDOT general fund. It is interesting that people advocating for that don't even live in this county. Not much of a surprise I guess.

First, there is no Mecklenburg Co money for roads. Not saying that's ideal or makes sense, it's just a fact of life. All the money we are talking about is state money that is allocated to a 5-county region that dubone posted above. Second, there is no general fund either. Funds are allocated for maintenance (not enough), and loops and for regional road construction. If this money isn't spent on one project, there is no "other" money from which to draw, unless someone gets really creative (VLN TIF) or new taxes are levied. Third, I was only speaking from what I think the priorities ought to be from a statewide strategic standpoint, and I think everyone here can understand why I-85 is vital in many ways (and many of those people live in Charlotte). If you argue that the money must be spent in the county regardless of strategic need, then that is no better than the argument that Rocky Mount or Wilson makes about building more roads in E NC. I'm saying take a strategic, goal-oriented approach about transportation priorities, and let the chips fall where they may, regardless of location or politics. I'm sure Charlotte & N. Meck would fare quite high on the priority lists if that is the approach.

[fortyniner]

I AGREE Billy Graham Pkwy. isn't the highest priority. As for not turning it into an expressway, a la Wendover and Cone in Greensboro, it's already limited access, with the only driveways being an exit only at CharlottePark and the Billy Graham Library. I don't see how eliminating the intersections with traffic signals would change anything, other than avoiding potential car crashes. BTW, BGP is one DARK road at night. I'm sure it would be just as dark, if it were located in Raleigh. LOL.

I don't live in the northern part of Mecklenburg, but I would think Mecklenburg residents in the north would agree I-77 north is the most urgent. That road is a parking lot almost every time I head in that direction. It would also seem to be fair to the developer who is widening a portion of the highway. Let's help those who help themselves. Or has Mr. Murdock or Martha herself ordained I-85 as the top priority? The same argument I raised above would apply to I-85 and the money he has poured into K-Town. I just think I-77 North would help more Mecklenburg tax payers. Maybe by not improving I-77, we will have a self fulfilling prophecy, and many northern Meck residents will feel shafted and move elsewhere in the region.

I'm not saying I-85 isn't the state's backbone or isn't important; I just feel I-77 improvements will help more Charlotte/Mecklenburgers. I'm just feeling a little parochial about this one.

[dubone]

Where does that logic end? Citizens of Charlotte don't get their fair share, so they should oppose spending money in Union, Cabarrus and North Meck, even though those are interregional roadways that are designed to get people to and from Charlotte? Just because 77 is in Mecklenburg county and a bit closer to Charlotte than 85, both roads are in the Charlotte Metro and both require widening due to being in the Charlotte Metro. 85, however, would eliminate the last bottleneck on a significant arterial for the state. I'll stipulate, of course, that all three roads (77, 74, and 85) carry local traffic too, but the lionshare of the use of those roads is due to their proximity to the largest city in the state.

The fundamental problems of NCDOT funding delay many needed projects in the whole metro area (in fact, all the metros in the Piedmont). That is the cause for the infighting over some money. I suppose whereever it is spent in our division, it will still benefit the metro region. But the bitterness about the idea of spending it in Cabarrus seems misplaced. What about all of Cabarrus' fair share? They are just as screwed as the rest of us with the money going 'down east', plus they must always play second fiddle to all of the expensive needs within the city of Charlotte. If they were in a division with a smaller population, 85 would probably already be done. That is a major reason 85 in Salisbury is already widened, as they could prioritize it easily over projects in Winston and the other rural counties in their division (85 in Salisbury was extremely old and dangerous before widening, much more so than the Cabarrus section is now).

I'm obviously advocating for 85 over 77 or 485 and I am a taxpayer in Charlotte/Mecklenburg. In fact, I drive on 85 in Cabarrus far more often than I drive 485 or 77, and perhaps that is why that is the one I see has the greatest need.

[monsoon]

.... If you argue that the money must be spent in the county regardless of strategic need, then that is no better than the argument that Rocky Mount or Wilson makes about building more roads in E NC. I'm saying take a strategic, goal-oriented approach about transportation priorities, and let the chips fall where they may, regardless of location or politics. ...

I have no problem with spending money based on strategic need but lets make sure that we have that strategy correctly stated when the decisions are made. Your characterization of I-77 being less important to Mecklenburg and thus does not warrant the same consideration as a widening project 25 miles out of the county on I-85 was based on an incorrect set of assumptions.

Let's not forget that Mecklenburg added close to 200,000 residents since the last census, more than the entire population of most counties in this state and does not need to wait around while we widen the interestates in sections that pass through the bugtussles of NC. Many of these new residents live and work on the 4 lane sections of I-77 and this presents a bigger need than widening I-85 as it passes through the far out sections of Cabarrus and Rowan counties.

[uptownliving]

I think that the widening of I-77 is going to miss the boat on this particular windfall due to the Lake Norman Causeway. Since NCDOT has not even started doing engineering on widining that section...and I would guess that is going to take longer because of the additional environmental studies that will have to be done to expand the causeway. It sounds like I-85 in Cabarrus Co and the NE segment of 485 are ready to go and will most likely be one of them that gets the money.

From an air quality standpoint I think that if they could bump up the 485 widening in South Charlotte....that could very well be the project that keeps Mecklenburg from losing all future federal road funds due to air quality non attainment. Because of the prevailing winds that go from SW to NE...if we can unclog this congestion point in South Charlotte it could potentially improve the air quality at the monitoring station. However our window on non attainment is quickly closing and in fact after this summer that window could be closed...so this might not even be an option.

[Andyc545]

^Indeed. I-85 is already 8 lanes in Mecklenburg border to border. The same should happen to I-77. They should make the last leg of I-485 a toll road.

Here's a solution. The money should be split to upgrading both 77, 485, and 85 to toll roads or to include the "pay lanes" and then that would incur a second funding method from NCDOT's. Proceeds initially can be used to finish upgrading all of the demands mentioned, then any proceeds from there on out can be used towards mass transit for the corresponding toll exits (Meck tolls go to the 2030 plan, Cabarrus tolls go to mass transit for Concord or expansions of the Charlotte 2030 into Cabarrus, etc.).

Edited August 18, 2008 by Andyc545

[monsoon]

^The federal government will not allow a state to make a toll road out of an existing interstate if federal funds were used to build it. And I believe that includes most of I-85. The last section of I-485 is a different matter because it doesn't exist yet.

[AuLukey]

I don't want Mecklenburg county money spent widening I-85 25-50 miles from Charlotte. We don't get our fair share of money now, so the I-85 widening needs to be taken care of by the NCDOT general fund. It is interesting that people advocating for that don't even live in this county. Not much of a surprise I guess.

I'm advocating it and I live in Mecklenburg. You say that widening I-85 25-50 miles from Charlotte shouldn't involve your money. Well you're right, but consider this, the furthest north exit in Concord is exit 58. Exit 58 is 10 miles from Charlotte city limits. Compare that to exit 30 on I-77 in Davidson that you mentioned. You're talking about 12 miles from the city limits at Northlake.

I drive on north 77 all the time up to the Lake Norman area and on up to I-40 as well. Outside of rush hour, it has always been smooth sailing for me. I guess I just must be lucky every single time. There is no doubt that there is a lot of traffic between northern Mecklenburg, Iredell, and Charlotte; but it is nowhere near the level of commerce being transported along 85 between this state's major cities.

And saying that that area has a lot of commerce from NASCAR related business may be true as there are a few shops and facilities up there, but have you heard of Cabarrus county? There are more NASCAR related businesses off of exit 49 and 52 on 85 than in maybe the whole of Mecklenburg and Iredell combined. And yes, I see your point about the distribution centers related to northern Mecklenburg, but there are also distribution centers from UPS along the most recent leg of 85 to be widened. The present need for widening that area of 77 does not supersede an area of interstate that is clogged at least 75% percent of the daylight hours causing backups from Rowan county in the southbound direction and into Mecklenburg county in the northbound.

While this money could be spent within the county proper, you have to look at this metro's growth as a whole. We get our funding as a metro as well and that is what this funding is for. Not specifically to a certain county. I don't view county lines as being of much importance when it comes to infrastructure, each county's traffic effect its neighbor.

[monsoon]

I'm advocating it and I live in Mecklenburg. You say that widening I-85 25-50 miles from Charlotte shouldn't involve your money. Well you're right, but consider this, the furthest north exit in Concord is exit 58. Exit 58 is 10 miles from Charlotte city limits. Compare that to exit 30 on I-77 in Davidson that you mentioned. You're talking about 12 miles from the city limits at Northlake.....

And if there were not 3 municipalities in the way, the Charlotte city limits would go to the county line. The money needs to stay in Mecklenburg to built roads for Mecklenburg. And in terms of commerce, I would say the investment on the I-77 corridor north of Charlotte far exceeds that around Exit 58. Last time I was at Exit 58 I saw a lot of decaying business and marginal strip malls.

......

While this money could be spent within the county proper, you have to look at this metro's growth as a whole. ....

Indeed. As I said earlier 200,000 people have moved into Mecklenburg since the census and that is more people than in all of Cabarrus county. That alone indicates where the commerce is and where the road building needs to occur.

[Spartan]

In my experience, the only times 77 north gets really backed up is when there is a crash or something else that blocks up a travel lane (or lanes). You can try using Statesville Rd but its not any better since everyone uses it as a detour. The best thing NCDOT can do to serve the Lake Norman area is to build another parallel facility (not necessarily an interstate) so that all of the commuter traffic is not funneled onto one highway.

77 south isn't getting much love here, but NCDOT needs to improve the connection to SC. Rock Hill has a lot of commuters and SCDOT is looking at HOV lanes for 77 through that area.

[monsoon]

In my experience, the only times 77 north gets really backed up is when there is a crash or something else that blocks up a travel lane (or lanes). ....

You must not travel on it much. In the same token, I can add that it has been years since I have seen a backup on I-85 north.

[Neo]

You must not travel on it much. In the same token, I can add that it has been years since I have seen a backup on I-85 north.

I can assure you that backups happen everyday on I-85 north and it doesn't necessarily have to be during rush hours either. The issue with I-85 going from four lanes into two lanes in Cabarrus is a huge problem.

[New Name]

Both interstates have the same problem.

I-85 goes from 4 lanes to 2 lanes too quickly in Cabarus.

I-77 goes from 4 lates to 2 lanes too quickly in Huntersville.

Both Cabarus and Huntersville's population boom have far outstretched the capacity of these roads.

And from what I can tell, most of the daily bottlenecks (aside from rushhour) come from the inability of cars to merge ONTO the highways from the entrance ramps. The traffic on the interstates is just TOO thick to allow cars to merge (especially for people with whom this is a NEW problem to deal with). We could certainly use that money for both highways, to extend the acceleration lanes; that may help.

[peaceloveunderstanding]

Here's a good breakdown on the traffic bottlenecks in Charlotte:

http://scorecard.inrix.com/scorecard/Metro...onalCongRank=28

The worst bottleneck is certainly on the southern leg of I-485.

[ChiefJoJo]

I think that the widening of I-77 is going to miss the boat on this particular windfall due to the Lake Norman Causeway. Since NCDOT has not even started doing engineering on widining that section...and I would guess that is going to take longer because of the additional environmental studies that will have to be done to expand the causeway. It sounds like I-85 in Cabarrus Co and the NE segment of 485 are ready to go and will most likely be one of them that gets the money.

From an air quality standpoint I think that if they could bump up the 485 widening in South Charlotte....that could very well be the project that keeps Mecklenburg from losing all future federal road funds due to air quality non attainment. Because of the prevailing winds that go from SW to NE...if we can unclog this congestion point in South Charlotte it could potentially improve the air quality at the monitoring station. However our window on non attainment is quickly closing and in fact after this summer that window could be closed...so this might not even be an option.

I think you're right. I-77 already has VLN and the TIF underway and that looks good up to Cornelius. Past that, there has been no environmental planning or engineering done to be able to build it. It's just beginning, actually. The causeway will be an obstacle from an environmental standpoint.

Regarding AQ, I think improving 485 south might be one of the biggest bangs for the buck out there, but always keep in mind, that for the lowest possible auto emissions, the sweet spot is in the lower vehicle operating speeds, as in 20-40mph. Any conditions below (stop & roll) or above (wide open freeway) can potentially make things worse. It's tricky, becuase everyone wants to travel on an open road, but when millions of vehicles do it, it's not a good thing for the environment.

Here's a solution. The money should be split to upgrading both 77, 485, and 85 to toll roads or to include the "pay lanes" and then that would incur a second funding method from NCDOT's. Proceeds initially can be used to finish upgrading all of the demands mentioned, then any proceeds from there on out can be used towards mass transit for the corresponding toll exits (Meck tolls go to the 2030 plan, Cabarrus tolls go to mass transit for Concord or expansions of the Charlotte 2030 into Cabarrus, etc.).

The region is already looking at toll and HOV lanes, so your idea has merit. The implementation of HOV and HOT lanes on the major freeways will take some time to execute... probably well past the horizon of these types of projects that may be ready to go in a few years.

Given that I-77N already will get some improvement with VLN, I-77N of Cornelius isn't ready to go, and I-77S will be a massive $multi-billion rebuild, my educated guess is that the projects to receive extra funding in order of likelihood are:

• I-85 in Cabarrus
  
• I-485 in NE Charlotte
  
• I-485 in S. Charlotte
  

Looking at the bigger picture, a conversation ought to take place among the regional leadership that takes a hard look at growth and how it has and is affecting transportation needs. As others have noted, the growth in Mecklenburg, Union, and S. Iredell and to a lesser extent Cabarrrus, has been tremendous, and the roadway infrastructure has not and will not be able to keep up with the continuation of low-density sprawling development patterns that exist in many of the outlying areas. While NCDOT priorities leave a lot to be desired, even if all the priorities changed tomorrow, there still isn't enough money to meet all the needs out there and that still would not solve the fundamental reality that you can't build your way out of congestion. Mecklenburg has (mostly) learned there is no future in continuing this trend, and it's time the other areas do the same.

[grodney]

Here's a good breakdown on the traffic bottlenecks in Charlotte:

http://scorecard.inrix.com/scorecard/Metro...onalCongRank=28

The worst bottleneck is certainly on the southern leg of I-485.

That's really cool data. Thanks. A couple comments/questions:

1) They must have the NB/SB messed up on 485, right? The #1 congestion says 485 NB at exit 65 (which is South Blvd). But that isn't northbound. The problem is the "outer", which is either southbound or eastbound, and happens at the afternoon rush. Similarly, the #8 congestion says SB at exit 61 (521/Johnston). Of course, this is actually the westbound/inner/morning rush.

2) Note also that the #1 and #9 are really all the same thing.

3)

Good comments upthread about volume and lanes and merging traffic. I recently sent an e-mail to the 485 project engineer (copied to Barry Moose) regarding the 485 eastbound congestion. The plan always says "485 widening". But I don't think the number of lanes is the problem, even when it goes from 3 lanes to 2 lanes. The real problem is the on-ramp from South Blvd combined with the 2 exits at the next interchange (the Hwy 51 interchange). This is where the slowdown starts each day, NOT at the South Blvd interchange where it goes from 3 lanes to 2 lanes. I'd like to see real information/research regarding the delays caused by merging and engineering of interchanges, as opposed to just traffic volume and number of lanes. (Who knows, maybe later in the afternoon, when the volume grows, that congestion at the South Blvd interchange would happen anyway, even without the congestion from the next interchange backing up into it.)

I have much less experience with the morning congestion on 485 westbound, but my guess is that it is primarily caused by merging traffic from Johnston/521 entering the westbound 485. This type of merging delay can't be a situation unique to Charlotte, right? Can't these interchanges/exits/on-ramps be re-engineered, without just adding lanes for the sake of adding lanes?