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Traffic Congestion and Highway Construction


monsoon

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I'm guessing that politics will prevent it from being spent on 485, but Yadkin Bridge is something affecting most of the state, and something that will be a huge impact if it collapses a la the bridge in Minnesota, so it will almost certainly be used with whatever money NC receives.

I think my drothers would be that they do one or two projects of statewide importance, but then maybe they should distribute the rest to each division so that the economic benefits are spread out. Of course, I hope it would not be equal distribution but rather somewhat population based, but whatever.

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My point was that Yadkin is a statewide project. Division 10 doesn't cover that area, so we'd then get a lesser amount which could be put to a smaller project. Time will tell, I'm not really trying to predict this. But I agree that that in entire state, the Yadkin Bridge is probably the highest risk of not doing anything, and would have the most widely felt benefit.

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If we only get one project in the Charlotte Metro, the Yadkin River Bridge should be it. That impacts us just as much as it does Cabarrus.
I don't understand that idea. This bridge is close to 50 miles from downtown Charlotte and has little to do with the traffic needs of this city. If it is such a big deal to drive over, which it is not clear to me that it is, then anyone in this city can take I-77 directly to I-40. It's a much more pleasant drive and only adds 19 miles on a trip to Raleigh.
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I don't understand that idea. This bridge is close to 50 miles from downtown Charlotte and has little to do with the traffic needs of this city. If it is such a big deal to drive over, which it is not clear to me that it is, then anyone in this city can take I-77 directly to I-40. It's a much more pleasant drive and only adds 19 miles on a trip to Raleigh.

This bridge needs to be replaced since it is designated as structurally deficient and on a major artery. Please tell me why we should disregard the bridge given the current state of it and its location on a major interstate?

Taking I-40 and then I-77 takes a much longer time than it does to take I-85 if going to Greensboro or anywhere else in eastern NC. Simple economics can explain why this is a good thing.

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^ It adds at least 50 miles, if you're taking the new loop then even more, if memory serves, Statesville and dt Greensboro are close to 70 miles apart.

According to Google maps directions from Charlotte to Greensboro:

Taking I-85:

92.0 miles (1hr 33m)

Taking I-77/I-40

111.0 miles (1hr 50m)

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^I'm not sure why it says this, but I drive these all fairly often, pretty sure many of you guys have as well, I-85 skirts GSO to the east if taking the loop, but even if you don't do this, Statesville is at least 50 miles from GSO, where I-77 terminates, so I don't see how it could be only a 19 mile difference.

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^I'm not sure why it says this, but I drive these all fairly often, pretty sure many of you guys have as well, I-85 skirts GSO to the east if taking the loop, but even if you don't do this, Statesville is at least 50 miles from GSO, where I-77 terminates, so I don't see how it could be only a 19 mile difference.

It is easy to see on a map. I-77/I-40 combo takes an arc very similar to I-85 form Charlotte to Greensboro, the arc for I-77/I-40 sits further west so it tacks on a few more miles.

It doesn't matter that Statesville is 50 miles from GSO (According to Google it is 71.2 miles from Statesville to Greensboro) because the arc is pretty much the same.

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The Yakin River Bridge is one of the key reasons why 85 has not been widened to 6 lanes in that area. Its an old bridge that has been labeled as structurally deficient. IMO its the best example of that the infrastructure bill should be addressing. It doesn't impact "traffic" in Charlotte, but it does impact the economy. If that bridge were to fail we'd be in a world of hurt since there isn't really another bridge over that river besides I-40 that could handle interstate levels of traffic.

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This bridge needs to be replaced since it is designated as structurally deficient and on a major artery. Please tell me why we should disregard the bridge given the current state of it and its location on a major interstate?.....
I didn't say the bridge should not be replaced. I questions whether it was the most important element to the Charlotte metro in terms of having money to spend on roads. I say it's not.

.... It doesn't impact "traffic" in Charlotte, but it does impact the economy. If that bridge were to fail we'd be in a world of hurt since there isn't really another bridge over that river besides I-40 that could handle interstate levels of traffic.
How does it affect the Charlotte economy? Can you quantify it? If that bridge were to fail, as pointed out earlier the alternative route is I-40 to I-77. It's only a few extra miles.
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How does it affect the Charlotte economy? Can you quantify it? If that bridge were to fail, as pointed out earlier the alternative route is I-40 to I-77. It's only a few extra miles.

Charlotte is a large trucking distribution hub and so if the Yadkin river bridge had to close that means added expense and time for a lot of companies to do business in Charlotte. Depending on how long it would take for them to build a new bridge it would be about $25M per year just in added fuel expense. Maybe that is small potatoes to you but to a distribution company they might decide to route cargo another way....or put it on a train and avoid Charlotte entirely.

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....Maybe that is small potatoes to you but to a distribution company they might decide to route cargo another way....or put it on a train and avoid Charlotte entirely.
Forgetting that you really didn't address the point being made, you are suggesting that we stop all road construction in Charlotte for years to re-build a bridge 50 miles from Charlotte, a bridge which is not in danger of collapse as some here have suggested? That would cost all of Charlotte much more than $25M.
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Forgetting that you really didn't address the point being made, you are suggesting that we stop all road construction in Charlotte for years to re-build a bridge 50 miles from Charlotte, a bridge which is not in danger of collapse as some here have suggested? That would cost all of Charlotte much more than $25M.

LOL I never suggested that. We are talking about the Obama stimulus and if the Yadkin river bridge is all that gets paid for with the Obama stimulus plan then that is fine with me. We all agree that it needs to be replaced and having the Obama stimulus plan be the funding source for it takes care of a large road project that has been politically difficult to deal with because it stradles 2 NCDOT funding districts.

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I didn't say the bridge should not be replaced. I questions whether it was the most important element to the Charlotte metro in terms of having money to spend on roads. I say it's not.

How does it affect the Charlotte economy? Can you quantify it? If that bridge were to fail, as pointed out earlier the alternative route is I-40 to I-77. It's only a few extra miles.

The status of the I-85/Yadkin River Bridge may not have a direct impact on the Charlotte economy. However, imagine all of the regional traffic (I-85 thru traffic) that would have to be re-routed down I-40 and then down I-77 to the I-85/I-77 interchange. I-40 between Greensboro (where the detour would start) and Statesville has long two-lane sections. The increase traffic would definitely diminish traffic operations along I-40. The reroute would also result in a significant increases in traffic at some major systems interchanges along the detour route: I-85 traffic bound for Charlotte and points south would have to navigate the loop ramp in the NW quad of the I-77/I-40 interchange in Statesville. This would result in significant delays as the loop ramps are not up to current standards; the radius of the ramp would limit acceleration for traffic attempting to merge on I-77 south. In addition, the weaving areas within the interchange (which are not separated from I-77 or I-40 by collector-distributor lanes) would limit traffic flow on the mainline. Rush hour traffic on I-77 north of I-485 (in Huntersville) would also see significant increase in thru traffic and in particular, truck traffic.....this section is two-lanes in each direction and is in desperate need of widening already. Depending on where the trucks are originating and terminating in the Charlotte area, there would be increase in truck movements on the I-85N to I-77N ramp.....which already has a history of accidents.

The key for the proposed stimulus plan is that the projects (any projects) that are designated have completed environmental studies and that the project is ready for right of way plans are ready to go. Final designs do not have to be completed and the design-build process can be used the keep the projects moving. I believe it is important for projects of a "Strategic Nature" to be chosen. By strategic, I mean, regional and statewide significance. However, we can not neglect bridges and congestion mitigitation projects as well. There definitely needs to be balance. Yet, it is important to get as much bang for your buck as well.

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Right now its not clear how the money would be funneled down. It could go to state DOT's who could divvy it out to the cities/counties and MPOs or it could go directly to the cities/counties. If the money does go to NCDOT, they would have a larger input on which projects are funded in Charlotte, and IMO we would probably loose out. But again, nobody knows the details yet so its all speculation.

This morning the Disturber is reporting that the State plans to use their old 'equity' formula for distributing the money, which means there is not enough in that district's budget to rebuild the bridge unless there is a specific earmark for the project. So money that could be used for the bridge would go toward paving a bunch of gravel roads in rural counties. Link to article below.

Yadkin Bridge

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Oh my gosh, the dreaded f'n equity formula strikes again. So not only will the state's most dangerous and one of the most heavily traveled bridges get ignored yet again, but now they get to put as much money into the eastern part of the state as possible.

When that bridge falls down in a few years and effectively shuts down the state, will we blame the legislature's equity formula, NCDOT's stupid choice to apply the equity formula to the stimulus, or Division 9's refusal to fund this road all this time so that it can build the 23rd freeway in Greensboro?

And now the 21st Century Committee group has shirked its duty to dramatically reshape the inept NCDOT and the ridiculous regulations they sit under, so pretty much all the hope for turning around this bass ackwards state is gone. Maybe Barry Moose accidentally saved too much for another one of his other pet projects that runs close to his home is Albemarle.

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Hopefully our Governor-Elect will act on her campaign promises for NCDOT.

Nobody is certain how the money will be divvied up at this point. It could go straight to the MPOs or cities/counties/other public agencies. State DOT's would get money too, so NCDOT's equity formula would only apply to their cut.

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I didn't say the bridge should not be replaced. I questions whether it was the most important element to the Charlotte metro in terms of having money to spend on roads. I say it's not.

My reply was to the following post that you made:

If it is such a big deal to drive over, which it is not clear to me that it is, then anyone in this city can take I-77 directly to I-40. It's a much more pleasant drive and only adds 19 miles on a trip to Raleigh.

To break down your comments, you said that it is not clear to you that it is a big deal to drive over. You also stated that one could simply take I-77/I-40 if going to Raleigh as it only adds 19 miles to the total trip.

You're twisting things to avoid answering based on your original comment.

If you want to know how it affects Charlotte directly, if you're FedEx and you want to transfer goods from Greensboro, Raleigh, etc. to Charlotte, you're obviously going to choose the route that saves you fuel and wear/tear on your trucks. I-85 is the most efficient route...and yes, those 19 miles add up extremely quickly. The more companies in Charlotte can save, the better it will be for the city in the long run since it would obviously assist in boosting the company's bottom line. This could translate in a host of things including keeping employees.

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This bridge needs to be replaced since it is designated as structurally deficient and on a major artery. Please tell me why we should disregard the bridge given the current state of it and its location on a major interstate?

Taking I-40 and then I-77 takes a much longer time than it does to take I-85 if going to Greensboro or anywhere else in eastern NC. Simple economics can explain why this is a good thing.

I-85 is much more important reginally outside of NC too. Hundreds of trucks travel that corridor everyday between Atlanta (and further south and west) and the northeast megalopolis. Several of my company's trucks do this, as I have a client that ships a lot of fabricated pipe from Columbus, GA and Birmingham, AL up to the NYC & Baltimore areas. I-85 is a much more direct and faster route to get up there than anything else is. I would think that bridge is of national, or at least regional importance to replace, not just for NC. It needs done as soon as possible.

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Agreed. I85 is the crucial connector for a majority of the population not only of North Carolina, but the entire SouthEast. 85 is basically like '95' is for the NE, although the southern megalopolis is much less populated. There is no question that this bridge is vital to commerce and transportation, that it is in serious deterioration, nearing (or completed) the end of its planned lifespan, is unsafe (narrow lanes and no shoulder), and is a significant bottleneck. It is especially a bottleneck coming from the north where you have 3 freeways with a total of 7 lanes squeezing down into these tiny 2 lanes, but also in the larger sense in that it is one of only 2 remaining section between Durham and Gastonia that is 4-lane total.

The problem with it is that it is at the fringe of an NCDOT division containing Greensboro (I previously misstated that it was with W-S), which is going through a significant process of upgrading its interstates to cover through traffic and has the same problem as we do where the equity formula takes money from the cities to fund the rural parts of the state.

Using the same broken equity formula for the stimulus might have some logical elements to it, but it starves the same projects that always get starved, the expensive projects of broad-ranging importance that are too much for the local divisions to fund.

Ironically, that was the original purpose of the equity formula and the intrastate system. Frankly, that element of it has been good, such as allowing us to build important arterial freeways to under served areas if state (64 in NE, 421 in NW, 26 to TN, I74, I73, etc.). However, now that we have built a majority of those connections, the rural areas are inventing expensive redundant connectors and 'urban loops' while the infrastructure deficits in the large cities grows exponentially with costs.

Maybe they'll still pull something out, but we really need to change NCDOT and the funding models to solve these fundamental problems. The Board needs to have less corruption and backwardness, allowing our statewide plans to be truly comprehensive and all-serving rather than adding wasteful connections to serve constituents or their landholdings. The cities pretty much need to take over urban street building, because NCDOT builds auto-only roads for speed and over-engineers the roads escalating costs and completely missing urban goals. If NCDOT goes back to mostly focusing on statewide transportation with an appropriate balance of rural-urban funding, then we won't have as many obvious failures like the Yadkin bridge.

I think many of the engineers and employees of NCDOT are earnest and try to do the right thing. The problems, however, are in the fundamental makeup, structure, and leadership as well as the legislated policies for revenue and distribution. We need some serious momentum and shakeup to change those fundamentals or we are going to be 10s of billions of dollars behind in infrastructure. Maybe this economy will be a breather in growth and inflation allowing them the chance to revolutionize. I just hope they take advantage.

http://www.ncdot.org/doh/preconstruct/alte.../I2304AAAB.html

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Agreed. I85 is the crucial connector for a majority of the population not only of North Carolina, but the entire SouthEast. ....

Easy enough then. Make a toll bridge out of it and let the entire Southeast pay to upgrade it. Seems to me this, and I keep saying this, it isn't the responsibility of the people of Charlotte.

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Other than talking about it on the Charlotte forum, I have no clue where anyone has said Charlotte should pay for it. It isn't in our division, so none of the money comes out of what we would pay for. From what I understand all of the urban regions of the Piedmont pay more into the state gas taxes than they get back from the DOT, and are net subsidizers of the rural east and west.

However, I am not sure where I missed this before when I looked it up, but it appears that the Yadkin bridge IS on the freaking TIP for division 9 (maybe that changed recently?), which has Rowan and Davidson counties divided up from 2009 to 2012. I guess I just took the word of the newspaper articles referencing that the local division wouldn't pay for the bridge.

I also was right originally that it is in Winston's division, not Greensboro. Not sure how I messed those facts up, but that sort of throws my whole argument out the window.

As for tolling it, that would require a legislative change, but it is something I wouldn't be opposed to, and they are certainly looking at that. But to me, urban commuting freeways build mainly for sprawl, like 485, are better roads for tolling than major inter-regional arteries. The interstate system was built to connect cities and regions, and so it seems.

But assuming my eyes aren't deceiving me and division 9 does plan to pay for it over the next 3 years, then that point is moot, and I'd probably then be fine with dividing the stimulus by region.

I would, however, revert back to my former argument where I don't think stimulus money should go to 485 because it is the last project in our division eligible for Loop Funds from the state, so if we pay for it with unrestricted money then we forever lose the restricted money that would have paid for the 485 leg, freeing it to go to lesser projects like Fayetteville's loop, etc. It has already been established that 85 and 77 are viable alternates to that leg of 485 to make it reasonable to wait.

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