Traffic Congestion and Highway Construction

[Spartan]

Has anyone else noticed that NCDOT has removed the "Inner Loop" and "Outer Loop" from the 485 signage, and added it to the 277 signage?

For 277 it makes a lot more sense to have this set up.

[southslider]

I was wondering, with all this talk of making 485 happen as soon as possible, why can't the state build it like they are building the next leg of Raleigh's outer loop, as a Turnpike project. This is certainly a roadway with may alternate routes to bypass it.

In that case, why not turn Independence/US-74 into a Turnpike project? None of I-485 is currently tolled, but the Monroe Connector/By-Pass will be, and it will dump right into Independence Boulevard. Given its regional travel demand and relationship with that planned Turnpike project, I think Independence would be a more logical candidate.

Plus, a Turnpike could provide an alternative funding stream outside the County sales tax to help complete the Southeast Transit Corridor sooner. And maybe even a funding stream to help buy control of access, and thereby buyout much of the blight. With transit and removal of driveway-dependent properties, the Independence corridor may actually then be catalyzed to redevelop.

[InitialD]

In that case, why not turn Independence/US-74 into a Turnpike project? None of I-485 is currently tolled, but the Monroe Connector/By-Pass will be, and it will dump right into Independence Boulevard. Given its regional travel demand and relationship with that planned Turnpike project, I think Independence would be a more logical candidate.

Plus, a Turnpike could provide an alternative funding stream outside the County sales tax to help complete the Southeast Transit Corridor sooner. And maybe even a funding stream to help buy control of access, and thereby buyout much of the blight. With transit and removal of driveway-dependent properties, the Independence corridor may actually then be catalyzed to redevelop.

I think Independence couldn't be turned into a turnpike because NC rules/laws prohibit an existing road from being turned into a toll road.

[ChiefJoJo]

I think Independence couldn't be turned into a turnpike because NC rules/laws prohibit an existing road from being turned into a toll road.

No reason they can't change the law. If the Monroe project is built, it's only going to make Independence more of a pinch point. I say, why not toll the whole thing all the way from Wingate to downtown and use the money to fund the project, and have DOT use some of the money for the next segment (past Albemarle) to help build the transit portion, a la T-Rex in Denver. It's better than waiting 30 years for that segment to be built.

Actually, here's a better (but radical) idea. Push the feds and the state to apply variable tolls (congestion pricing) all area's urban freeways (77, 85, 485, 277), and use the revenue to construct a menu of transportation projects (mostly transit). Applying tolls to all the freeways at peak times would both create revenue and serve to manage traffic growth, as people would find other routes to work. Most of the money could be applied to transit, which would give commuter incentives to ride and or carpool to work, and help CATS implement the 2030 plan more quickly.

I guess the more and more I've thought about these issues, it seem that so much effort is expended to plan for increasing supply through massive roadway expansions that only serve to prolong dealing with the real problems of poor transportation and land use integration, when the side left unexplored is demand side management. My thinking comes from the notion that in transportation policy today, we offer too many carrots (cheap gas, easy/cheap parking, auto-oriented zoning, etc) and not enough sticks (land use controls, urban zoning, caps on parking, higher gas taxes). If tolls were applied at the right times of the day and set at the right price, you could completely avoid having to to any more major expansions, supplementing the half cent tax in building the 2030 plan faster, and without increasing taxes on the general public (other than direct user fees). And, many of these fees could be reduced or avoided altogether if folks just carpooled and or used transit instead, further reducing congestion.

Of course I realize this would be seen as a leftist communist plot, complete with death panels... but it would be one way to address congestion, and help fund transit and some roads faster, and create incentive for more sustainable transport, all without raising taxes on the general public.

[nyxmike]

Does anyone know if NCDOT ever plans on updating the signs for the 485/77 interchange near the state line? Either the sign will just say 485 with a huge space under it (now that most of the loop is complete you think they would go back and fill in the blanks with the cities) or one will say "East Pineville" and the other "Inner" with no city listed. Not only does it look stupid, but it has to confuse people who aren't familiar with the area. Also, I still would like to know why on I-85 near Concord the sign reads "485 Rock Hill". It'll take you to Rock Hill if you get off at 77 South, but when you get to that interchange the sign reads "77 South Columbia". It just doesn't make any sense to put "Rock Hill" on there. And last but not least, replacing Charlotte Douglas Airport with Billy Graham Library. The airport is one of the most valuable assets to this area and it deserves adequate signage, not Billy Graham Library.

[Spartan]

Interesting. As I posted before, on 85 near the Catawba River at 485 they removed "inner" and "outer" entirely but they did add "Pineville" and other towns to that signage. Maybe they haven't made their way around yet?

[nyxmike]

Interesting. As I posted before, on 85 near the Catawba River at 485 they removed "inner" and "outer" entirely but they did add "Pineville" and other towns to that signage. Maybe they haven't made their way around yet?

That's strange since (I thought) they were converting everything to Inner and Outer on 485. At 85, what did they replace it with?

On the 485/77 interchange, it's not that they are removing "Inner" and "Outer", they are mixing it with "East" and "West" and there is no consistency. For example, your driving down 77 south and you come towards the interchange. There is a big sign and all it says is 485 (with space for cities to be added but they never added them). You merge to the right and the road splits. First set of 485 signs say "East Pineville" and "West Gastonia". As you get closer to the split, the next set of signs say "East Pineville" and "Inner" for the other direction with no city listed. Same thing if you are driving north on 77 from SC and you take the ramp for 485. Basically one way says "East" and the other says "Inner". That interchange is somewhat old, and the signs all need to be updated so they are consistent and make sense.

[Spartan]

They just put green tape over the words "inner" and "outer"

[nyxmike]

The Yadkin River Bridge/I-85 widening project seems to moving forward and the state seems confident they will get the stimulus money for it approved. If funding is secured, work should start early next year.

[tozmervo]

Didn't really know where else this would work, but anyway -

They've been paving random street segments in South End for the past couple of weeks. Carson between Tryon and South, Tremont between the LRT and South, and now Remount in the same location.

I believe they are all CDOT roads, but come on. I can think of a dozen other roads off the top of my head that badly need resurfaced when the ones I just listed were perfectly fine. South Tryon chief among them (I'm looking at you NCDOT). This is why I have no faith in the Road departments and happily lobby for shifting funding to Mass Transit.

[JayGee]

They just put green tape over the words "inner" and "outer"

Maybe they can channel some of this inner/outer effort to signs on 77 telling you how to get to the airport. (more than a cute little cartoon).

And while they're at it, how about consolidating the signs for BofA Stadium, Time Warner Arena, Convention Center, etc., along 77. Instead of putting up a scattering of little signs. I'm sure they'll be a new one for Hall of Fame. How can one not come to the conclusion that these people are idiots. My gosh, these are signs!

[Spartan]

You may get your wish sooner than you think.

[uptownliving]

You may get your wish sooner than you think.

By the end of the year right? I think contracts and designs have already been approved for all the new color coded highway signage in and around Center City.

[kickazzz2000]

Maybe they can channel some of this inner/outer effort to signs on 77 telling you how to get to the airport. (more than a cute little cartoon).

And while they're at it, how about consolidating the signs for BofA Stadium, Time Warner Arena, Convention Center, etc., along 77. Instead of putting up a scattering of little signs. I'm sure they'll be a new one for Hall of Fame. How can one not come to the conclusion that these people are idiots. My gosh, these are signs!

That mumble jumble of signs makes me think of this epic fail...

http://failblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/fb42.jpg

[JayGee]

That mumble jumble of signs makes me think of this epic fail...

http://failblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/fb42.jpg

LOL I love it.

By the end of the year right? I think contracts and designs have already been approved for all the new color coded highway signage in and around Center City.

I shouldn't care. I know how to get around Charlotte. It's just so embarassing. . . .

I hope they do fix it.

[AuLukey]

This may be old news, but the O has an article about the expansion of 85 in Cabarrus County to begin in Dec 2011. It also involves realigning and connecting roads in the county as well.

[Spartan]

By the end of the year right? I think contracts and designs have already been approved for all the new color coded highway signage in and around Center City.

Yes. I'm not sure about the scheduling of it off hand, but it will be a significant improvement when it happens.

[New Name]

Yes. I'm not sure about the scheduling of it off hand, but it will be a significant improvement when it happens.

What are you guys talking about exactly?

[dubone]

The interstates around uptown will get color coordinated signage that lists all the key destinations in each quadrant of uptown and then direct people how to get to that quadrant. So you'll see that Discovery Place and Imaginon are listed in Uptown North and you'll follow the signs to Uptown North which will direct you to Brookshire Freeway. You'll see that Bechtler and Nascar HOF are in Uptown South and you'll follow the signs to Uptown South which will direct you Belk Freeway. It'll be like at a multi-terminal airports, where you first see the list of which airline is at which terminal and then you follow signs to that terminal.

I still wish they had used the wards themselves, but it is a very good plan and I am happy they are doing it. It will make it much easier to give people directions to places uptown.

[New Name]

^ Have we seen pictures of these signs? You're talking about HIGHWAY signage right - like large highway signs? On the side of the highway like "Food Next Exit" kind of stuff, or overhead signs

[JayGee]

The interstates around uptown will get color coordinated signage that lists all the key destinations in each quadrant of uptown and then direct people how to get to that quadrant. So you'll see that Discovery Place and Imaginon are listed in Uptown North and you'll follow the signs to Uptown North which will direct you to Brookshire Freeway. You'll see that Bechtler and Nascar HOF are in Uptown South and you'll follow the signs to Uptown South which will direct you Belk Freeway. It'll be like at a multi-terminal airports, where you first see the list of which airline is at which terminal and then you follow signs to that terminal.

I still wish they had used the wards themselves, but it is a very good plan and I am happy they are doing it. It will make it much easier to give people directions to places uptown.

Sounds like a good plan, let's hope they get it right. Now will that include signage on 77 as well to give drivers a heads-up, or it will it be 'give you the information after you get there'.

I probably sound like the proverbial broken record, but I have been in way too many situations where I've pressed for time to return the rental car and catch a flight, only to take a wrong turn (or no turn) because of bad signage. It's infuriating, besides: bad signage = confusion = people doing crazy things sometimes = danger. A simple concept which one would think highway engineers would grasp quite easily.

Edited September 20, 2009 by JayGee

[JayGee]

^ Have we seen pictures of these signs? You're talking about HIGHWAY signage right - like large highway signs? On the side of the highway like "Food Next Exit" kind of stuff, or overhead signs

If the airport comparison is accurate, it would be big highway signs.

[dubone]

Well they may group the venues, I'm not sure.

http://www.signweb.com/content/segd-guides...finding-program

http://www.segd.org/images/content/4/7/473...e_charlotte.pdf

I don't see the designs on the city website.

[grodney]

http://www.signweb.com/content/segd-guides...finding-program

http://www.segd.org/images/content/4/7/473...e_charlotte.pdf

From the PDF, regarding the new signs: "Besides saving fuel and reducing the number of vehicles on the street, air quality is expected to improve significantly."

Come on. Really? I understand saving fuel, sure. But improving air quality? Significantly? Seriously.

And it does really REALLY suck that they didn't use the wards for this. (But I repeat myself: http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/Uptown-South-t43045.html)

[Spartan]

Think about the amount of time people spend driving around uptown looking for parking and their destinations. This group is a substantial population of both residents of Charlotte and visitors too. If you can more clearly and efficiently direct people to where they need to go then you will have less traffic taking up space and less traffic idling and expelling pollution. I don't know if its possible to measure, but every little bit helps. Plus the signage to get to uptown really sucks. Anything that can be done will be an improvement.