Traffic Congestion and Highway Construction

[Nolan]

It seems that once the new lane on I-485 was opened it just pushed the congestion farther down past Johnston Rd, although the sections from I-77 to South Blvd seems to be doing better. SMH. 

[Matthew.Brendan]

Yep, now it just bottlenecks at Rea where it drops back down to 2 lanes. Hopefully they just move all the equipment down and start the expansion of Rea - 74 next.

[grodney]

The true test of 485 won't come until the new year and everyone is back to a normal work schedule with school and all.  I have always believed the eastbound afternoon rush bottleneck was caused by cars entering 485 at South having to criss-cross (while accelerating up-hill) with traffic exiting 485 at 51 (as opposed to being caused by the drop from 3 lanes to 2 at South).  There's obviously an extra far left lane for thru traffic now, as well as an extra exit lane -- but the accelerating mergers from South still exist.

 

The morning westbound should be much better, although I'm sure there will be some learning curve to using the new lanes and the new auxiliary lane from Johnston to 51.

[Nolan]

Also previously the NCDOT warned that because of a faster morning commute on Inner 485, I-77 might have more back ups due to people are able to reach it quicker.

[MilZ]

This was quite interesting...

http://iqc.ou.edu/2014/12/18/60yrssoutheast/

It uses sliders to show the impact suburbanization of southeastern cities has had over the last 50-60 years. Another page shows mid-western cities, which are even harder to stomach.

Edited January 2, 2015 by MilZ

[Third Strike]

NCDOT is "confident" that construction on the Monroe Bypass will start this Spring, and finish by the end of 2018. The Southern Environmental Law Center is still trying to stop the project, however.

 

http://www.myfoxtwincities.com/story/27775757/dot-says-its-confident-monroe-bypass-begins-this-spring

[dubone]

But SELC has been trying all along.   I'm torn because of course I want to protect the character of rural Union county and  hate sprawl, I just also think major highways are inevitable and necessary in all directions from a major city.  

 

So as long as NCDOT has mitigated the impacts as much as possible, and created as many limits on sprawl development as possible, then I'm glad it is finally being built. 

[southslider]

Once bypassed, Union County can have their own version of Independence Blvd. So ironically, NCDOT may actually be helping bankrupt the sprawl machine.

Edited January 7, 2015 by southslider

[dcharlotte]

Once bypassed, Union County can have their own version of Independence Blvd. So ironically, NCDOT may actually be helping bankrupt the sprawl machine.

 

Probably worse since the cars that are on the bypass will never even see the retail on US-74.

[tozmervo]

but it is a tolled bypass, so really the traffic on it would be people that probably wouldn't have stopped in Monroe anyway.

[dubone]

Yeah it already is that way, but NCDOT could have limited driveways, etc. on the original US74 through Monroe, but did not.   But mobility is severely limited through there.  Sometimes the trip to Wilmington is almost 1/3 the time just to get through Union County unless you take the country roads.   

 

Just bypass and let the big box stores and retail in general fail from their own excesses like they have on Independence. 

[cltbwimob]

But SELC has been trying all along.   I'm torn because of course I want to protect the character of rural Union county and  hate sprawl, I just also think major highways are inevitable and necessary in all directions from a major city.  

 

So as long as NCDOT has mitigated the impacts as much as possible, and created as many limits on sprawl development as possible, then I'm glad it is finally being built. 

I believe the idea that this road is going to create endless sprawl is way oversold.  The bypass will be innately anti-sprawl by virtue of the fact that its a toll road.  Toll roads are, by nature, sprawl reducers when compared to their "free" counterparts because they force their users to pay for the externalities they notionally create.  The fact that the SELC does not understand this point, among others, should serve to reduce their credibility. Or maybe they do understand this fact but are strategically omitting it from their argument (coincidentally, they demand that the NCDOT be 100% transparent). 

 

Why don't the town councils of Hemby Bridge, Stallings, Mineral Springs, Marvin, and Weddington question the SELC's credibility rather than buying everything they say hook, line, and sinker?  Why the hell do Mineral Springs, Marvin, and Weddington even care since the bypass comes nowhere near their borders?  Finally where was all their righteous, anti-sprawl indignation when suburban developers swooped in and summarily destroyed tens of thousands of acres of farmland and forests to erect cheap houses on 1/3-1 acre lots?  I heard no snarling from the SELC when XYZ suburban homebuilders came and destroyed the beautiful rural farms in Union County.  The towns were not incensed when said homebuilders razed their pristine forests.    

 

*Edit- I would be willing to bet the overwhelming majority of insidious SELC lawyers and the band of elected officials they manipulate live in sprawling subdivisions.

Edited January 8, 2015 by cltbwimob

[dubone]

These are all very good points, but one point is that SELC is providing legal services to clients suing for different reasons.  I'm sure one aspect is still the endangered species (singular), and then there may be other self-serving suits that are masquerading as good causes.

 

 

Sprawl is a very generational thing.  There are many pro-environment people from the boomer generation where suburbs being a bad thing do not register in their minds.   They think that being out farther from the city is greener because it is literally greener, with more of a yard with plants and smaller scale houses and away from most sources of concentrated pollution.   It has taken a new era to think at a different level to see the impact when everyone wants that suburban life that it destroys farmland and nature and relies on massive congested freeways, etc.    Obviously that is over-simplification, but I have seen many many well meaning older environmental types who are proud of their low density neighborhoods, so it adds some interesting twists to the subject.    

 

 

But I'd also add that the environmental review ought to be more than a rubber stamp.  If a project does in fact damage an area, it should be taken seriously and reviewed and rerouted if necessary.

 

The fact that we are all right that toll roads are not as supportive of sprawl is proven by how vehement and panicked the people in Mooresville are about the expansion of 77 being with toll lanes.     This is a county that had previously so few commuters to Charlotte that it was not considered our metro area despite being adjacent!  

[ArtieP]

It is refreshing seeing the 485 loop in Google Maps!  Even if it is technically not complete.  Oh Well.

[grodney]

 

 

It is refreshing seeing the 485 loop in Google Maps!  Even if it is technically not complete.  Oh Well.

 

 

Are you seeing what I'm seeing?  The outer outer loop.

 

Use existing roadways/ROWs, clockwise from top:

73 across the north.

601 down the east side.

75 from Monroe to 521.

New road from 521 to the east side of Rock Hill, then smaller roads 50 and 161 to get over to 274.

274 up to the intersection with 55.

New road from there over to 321 at the NC/SC border.

321 up to 275.

275 to Stanley.

New road from Stanley up to 73.

 

Did I just re-create something that's already on the books in the 50-year plan or something?

 

[SouthEndCLT811]

Reminds me of Houston

 

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Houston,+TX/@29.7915576,-95.2251669,11z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x8640b8b4488d8501:0xca0d02def365053b

[Spartan]

Are you seeing what I'm seeing?  The outer outer loop.

 

Use existing roadways/ROWs, clockwise from top:

73 across the north.

601 down the east side.

75 from Monroe to 521.

New road from 521 to the east side of Rock Hill, then smaller roads 50 and 161 to get over to 274.

274 up to the intersection with 55.

New road from there over to 321 at the NC/SC border.

321 up to 275.

275 to Stanley.

New road from Stanley up to 73.

 

Did I just re-create something that's already on the books in the 50-year plan or something?

 

 

No, that's not on any plan anywhere. Could it happen naturally as the metro area continues to grow? Possibly.

 

 

 

I believe the idea that this road is going to create endless sprawl is way oversold.  The bypass will be innately anti-sprawl by virtue of the fact that its a toll road.  Toll roads are, by nature, sprawl reducers when compared to their "free" counterparts because they force their users to pay for the externalities they notionally create.  The fact that the SELC does not understand this point, among others, should serve to reduce their credibility. Or maybe they do understand this fact but are strategically omitting it from their argument (coincidentally, they demand that the NCDOT be 100% transparent). 

 

Why don't the town councils of Hemby Bridge, Stallings, Mineral Springs, Marvin, and Weddington question the SELC's credibility rather than buying everything they say hook, line, and sinker?  Why the hell do Mineral Springs, Marvin, and Weddington even care since the bypass comes nowhere near their borders?  Finally where was all their righteous, anti-sprawl indignation when suburban developers swooped in and summarily destroyed tens of thousands of acres of farmland and forests to erect cheap houses on 1/3-1 acre lots?  I heard no snarling from the SELC when XYZ suburban homebuilders came and destroyed the beautiful rural farms in Union County.  The towns were not incensed when said homebuilders razed their pristine forests.    

 

*Edit- I would be willing to bet the overwhelming majority of insidious SELC lawyers and the band of elected officials they manipulate live in sprawling subdivisions.

 

I would agree except that there aren't any free counterparts to an 'interstate' in Union County. US74 in that area is free, but the average speed is so low that people won't consider it much of an alternative unless they live south of the highway. The GA-400 in Atlanta is a great example of a sprawl inducing toll road. Higher income suburbanites would consider it part of the cost of living in a serene rural setting like NW Union County.

[dcharlotte]

To be fair, the GA-400 toll only had one toll. Since most folks took the road to I-285, the sections further north were always free and sprawl-inducing. I'm not disagreeing that an extra $100 a month is nothing to someone in a 800k house, but 400 had too many non-tolled access points that led to jobs on the perimeter. 

[dubone]

I really dislike outer-outer loops though as very outdated in thinking, as it is basically giving up on the core of the city.    It is the same negatives of the original loop but far worse because it is twice as far out.  

 

Certainly NCDOT will upgrade US 601, and I suspect Garden Parkway will find a way to happening, but beyond that it will not happen because the pool of money for loops now must go, by law, to complete the other planned loops around the state.  

 

 

The next phase of infrastructure for a city of 2.5-5m people is adding capacity to the 'spokes' to keep the core of the city from being choked off and to allow it densify.  I pray to the FSM that all the current freeways are expanded purely by way of HOT lanes to prevent the moral hazard of building infrastructure mainly for sprawl-dwellers that are avoiding paying for the infrastructure (and countless other benefits of user-paid highways).  Obviously transit and complete streets need to be put in as well.  

 

 

In a weird way, NCDOT may need some sprawl development to happen in order for the toll revenue to pay for the road.  But as close as it is to actual Monroe, that may be inevitable already.   But US74 in Monroe was a lost cause for through traffic, but is still a viable alternative once most through traffic is removed.  

[tozmervo]

I will never look at another hub and spoke diagram without thinking of noodly appendages.

[Third Strike]

Mayor Clodfelter wants the NCDOT to look into opening the fourth unused lanes on I-485 in South Charlotte as HOV lanes. Currently, they are being used as inner shoulders. Opening the lanes as HOV lanes would also allow the lanes to later become HOT lanes, like planned.

 

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2015/01/22/5464337/mayor-dot-should-consider-using.html#.VMHDFC5HxmM

[Matthew.Brendan]

Yes please...

[jednc]

Yes please...

In the spirit of Bearden Park, I say lets close all lanes of 485 until the Contractors get the last segment opened. If NE Meck can't have access, no one gets access.

[archiham04]

YES!!!!  voluntary CARMAGEDDON!!!!!   this is what i've been dreaming about!

[Nolan]

Then they are going to have to solve the issue of going from 4 lanes to 2 lanes after Rea if that extra wide shoulder is turned into a HOV lane, I could see that being a mess.