Jump to content

Traffic Congestion and Highway Construction


monsoon

Recommended Posts

The question isn't federal highway money as much as it is state highway money. NC is one of the very few states where the state DOT builds all highways. As a result the state builds an excessive amount of highways to nowhere in this state and the cities are left with inadequate roads. I agree with you that you can't pave your way out of congestion, but we are talking about roads that are dangerous because of lack of maintenance.

A large majority of our highway improvement projects are federally funded...NHF and STP funds to be exact. On those projects there is a 80/20 split....with Uncle Suga paying the 80%. In regards to roads to nowhere, eastern NC...in particular northeastern NC is among the poorest regions in the nation. With that said, the purpose of the roads are to promote investment from businesses who would not otherwise locate in eastern NC. Like the saying says, in regards to business....it's location, location. With location, location, it's accessibility, accessibility. The purpose of the "expressways to nowhere" are to give shippers, distributors, manufacturers a reason to locate in a Martin, a Chowan, a Bladen, or a Tyrell County. It's not about eastern politicians controlling the legislature....it's about making the other two regions (the mountains and coastal plain) attractive to business.

Edited by Otto
Link to comment
Share on other sites


Those poor people should get with the 21st century and move to the urban centers where the jobs already are. We shouldn't be spending billions of dollars to pretend that those rural spots are anything other that rural spots. I am a supporter of the intrastate system, which is what leads to many projects going into eastern NC. However, some of the roads are just ludicrous, such as the redundant I74 route through the swamps west of Wilmington, and the redundant freeway between Wilson and Kinston shaving only a couple miles off the current freeway route.

The federal portion is a matching (or over-matching) system. So when the state fails to spend the money in the cities, then the federal government also fails to spend the money in the cities. This is a main reason I believe in increasing local spending on roads, as it opens up more federal money back to NC. Right now, NC is a donor state, meaning the federal government collects more in gas tax in NC than it spends. If more funds were spent on roads in the cities, which warrant being built, then the federal money would come here. The same would go for 77 in north Meck if the local governments could drum up the local portion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, and disagree that building $100M highways to so that Bugtussle can get a few jobs is good policy. What it has led to is a state being paved over and covered by super walmarts, fastfood and other big box retailers.

What people tend to overlook as well is that the freeways to nowhere improve connectivity from the metros to the rural areas. Most consumer goods are not made in the US. They start off in some Pacific Rim country, loaded into a 40' or 45' container, dropped off in LA, shipped by rail to some intermodal facility....transported by truck to a Wal-mart distribution center in some rural area, loaded back on a truck and shipped to one of the NC Metros on one of these expressways to nowhere. Examples: (US 220/I-73...Triad to Montgomery and Richmond Co.), (Planned US 74 improvements....Wilmington to Charlotte), (US 64 Triangle to the Outer Banks). Yes, the "roads to nowhere" are intended to spur economic development....but they also help the consumer goods used in the metros get there more efficiently and cheaper.

Super Walmarts and big box retailers are a result of consumer demand. If people didn't shop at Walmarts and Home Depots, they wouldn't build them.

If the metros are serious about improving their traffic woes....the need to:

(1) instead of increasing sales taxes for convention centers and stadiums....they may need to look at a local road bond referendum....be more proactive instead of waiting on NCDOT to give them money. Improvements to roads live Mallard Creek Church, Providence Rd, Derita Rd, and Poplar Tent could be handled locally which would avail money from Independence Blvd, I-485 widening, I-77 in North Meck and so forth.

(2) be more mindful of zoning and controlling development. Subdivisions and strip malls take a lot less time to plan and build than roads. The lack of wise planning strains existing facilities and cause changes in project priorities. This is what causes a road project to go from construction in FY 09 to Post Year funding.

(3) take steps to make housing within the cities more affordable. It seems that the high density development tends to be the costliest. Not all high-rise apartments have to start at $300k. Most middleclass folks can not afford to live within a reasonable distance of the cities. Length of commute has sooo much to do with the availability of decent and affordable housing and good schools.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What people tend to overlook as well is that the freeways to nowhere improve connectivity from the metros to the rural areas. Most consumer goods are not made in the US. They start off in some Pacific Rim country, loaded into a 40' or 45' container, dropped off in LA, shipped by rail to some intermodal facility....transported by truck to a Wal-mart distribution center in some rural area, loaded back on a truck and shipped to one of the NC Metros on one of these expressways to nowhere. Examples: (US 220/I-73...Triad to Montgomery and Richmond Co.), (Planned US 74 improvements....Wilmington to Charlotte), (US 64 Triangle to the Outer Banks). Yes, the "roads to nowhere" are intended to spur economic development....but they also help the consumer goods used in the metros get there more efficiently and cheaper.

But what good is this if all the roads leading into the metro areas are jammed and congested all the time. It will still take a long time to deliver goods to an area. I think you are on point and I think connectivity is good in some cases like the US264 and US 64 bypasses which connect the urban areas in the state to the coast and I-95, but roads like the Henderson loop (which is suppose to en-circle Henderson) and the 117 bypass, which only bypass Pikeville and Fremont are a complete waste of money.

I also think the urban areas should do a better job of growth management and finding other ways of moving people around like transit and building more mixed-use developments. In the same sense, I think it's selfish to tell the urban areas to come up with the money on their own, when they are the one's that are pumping most of the money into the state and paying for all these roads to nowhere.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

True, I haven't....but I've seen pictures. :) I've certainly never been to any city in Canada or Europe where entire swaths of urban highways are dark because the lights don't work. For that matter, I've been to basically every large and medium-sized city in the entire USA and haven't seen anything as bad as what the NCDOT has allowed to happen on Charlotte's state highways.

I agree with you. This one issue gets me more pissed than probably any other topic we debate. In the end it is politics that keep CLT in the Dark, not the money. The money might be slim, but it is there, it is just being used to put highways in the middle of nowhere!!!

:angry:

A2

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A large majority of our highway improvement projects are federally funded...NHF and STP funds to be exact. On those projects there is a 80/20 split....with Uncle Suga paying the 80%. In regards to roads to nowhere, eastern NC...in particular northeastern NC is among the poorest regions in the nation. With that said, the purpose of the roads are to promote investment from businesses who would not otherwise locate in eastern NC. Like the saying says, in regards to business....it's location, location. With location, location, it's accessibility, accessibility. The purpose of the "expressways to nowhere" are to give shippers, distributors, manufacturers a reason to locate in a Martin, a Chowan, a Bladen, or a Tyrell County. It's not about eastern politicians controlling the legislature....it's about making the other two regions (the mountains and coastal plain) attractive to business.

It is MUCH MORE sensible to focus on retaining the jobs and businesses that you do have, than hoping to lure them in.

The larger corporations are the majority stakeholders in these roads to nowhere, since they are by far the largest tax payers in the state.

These giants (BofA, NuCor, Goodrich, Wachovia, Lowe's I can go on and on...) will relocate if infastructure needs hamper growth. That is a MAJOR reason ATL has had so much success in recruiting and retaining Big Business.

I believe in fiscal responsibilty! By building roads to nowhere that cost millions to the tax payer is absurd, when you have the largest metro between ATL and DC in the dark. There is simple maintnance that is being neglected in our large urban centers, while muti-million dollar projects go on at a break neck pace in rural NC.

I have actually contacted lawyers to see if persons involved in accidents could sue the state for being liable due to negligence, when it comes to miles of unlit roads.

It is so dark on most roads and major interchanges that it has become a real hazard. All the while, we continue to plow away some more of our green space in RURAL North Carolina, in the hopes of luring jobs and business. I don't only not buy it, but I believe it to be the biggest crock of crap ever.

I DON'T WANT MY SCENIC NC MOUNTAINS AND BEACHES TO HAVE EIGHT LANE HIGHWAYS PLOWED THROUGH THEM. (This is the one reason I moved to NC, it natural diversity and beauty.) If people in Rural NC are concerned over their economic situation, maybe they should consider moving to the city for a job. There are plenty to choose from.

The cities should be cities, bright lights and all. We should fight to preserve our rural areas as best we can (while we still have this asset). Instead politicians are content to throw millions away at the expense of the very money machine that puts the money in the statet coffers, our cities!!!

A2

Edited by A2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

If the metros are serious about improving their traffic woes....the need to:

(1) instead of increasing sales taxes for convention centers and stadiums....they may need to look at a local road bond referendum....be more proactive instead of waiting on NCDOT to give them money. Improvements to roads live Mallard Creek Church, Providence Rd, Derita Rd, and Poplar Tent could be handled locally which would avail money from Independence Blvd, I-485 widening, I-77 in North Meck and so forth.

(2) be more mindful of zoning and controlling development. Subdivisions and strip malls take a lot less time to plan and build than roads. The lack of wise planning strains existing facilities and cause changes in project priorities. This is what causes a road project to go from construction in FY 09 to Post Year funding.

(3) take steps to make housing within the cities more affordable. It seems that the high density development tends to be the costliest. Not all high-rise apartments have to start at $300k. Most middleclass folks can not afford to live within a reasonable distance of the cities. Length of commute has sooo much to do with the availability of decent and affordable housing and good schools.

What the heck does that have to do with simply maintaining our current roads, by keeping them clean, safe and lit!

Answer:

NOT A DAMN THING!!!

I agree with you that cities need to be more proactive in enhancing their road network, but half of the problem is that the State is neglecting cleaning and lighting our roads because they are always whining that they don't have the funds to re-wire our lights.

This is the problem that I have. Not too mention that spurring economic development in rural NC, is damaging to our Beautiful state.

^^^

IT IS A LOSE-LOSE PROPOSITION!

A2

Edited by A2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

A good discussion here.

Otto wrote:

In order for Charlotte to not choke on traffic, people are going to have to make sacrifices in where they live or how they commute. If you want to live in Cornelius, support the commuter rail project, take the 77X bus, move, or stop complaining. Regardless of whether the NCDOT equity formula changes, there will never be enough highway $$s to go around.....no one can afford to widen Independence Blvd, widen I-77 in North Meck and south of downtown, widen I-85 in Cabarrus and Rowan, widen I-485, build the Monroe Bypass, Gaston E-W connector, fix the Catawba Ave interchange in Cornelius, and fix all the interstate lighting in Mecklenburg County at the same time.

Support your local transit initiatives....you must have balance.

Good post. I think how a city deals with growth is a large part of the problem that many urban areas are dealing with. Don't approve developments all over the place with no allowances for public facilities (rds, schools, water, open space, etc) in place and expect the state DOT (or DENR, etc.) to save you. I've heard it many times... it's VERY convenient for a local politician to approve 2 Wal-Marts, a SuperTarget, 3 golf course developments, and a mall, and then blame DOT for the traffic. :rolleyes: Hmm, how'd that happen?

On the other hand, NCDOT shares a lot of the blame for this too. The state is spread WAY to thin with too many responsibilties to do a good job at all of them anymore, so a lot of things (lighting in Charlotte) go undone. The old "good roads state" motto worked up until the late 80s/early 90s, but not anymore. Massive suburban/urban growth is eating away at the states capabilties each day.

dubone wrote:

There was an interesting article in the CBJ this weekend talking about the roadway funding issue. Basically it is saying that it is an unfair comparison to compare NC's high gas tax to that of other states, as in other states, localities do more to contribute to the transportation infrastructure. I think I am thoroughly convinced that the only way for Charlotte to even come close in meeting its infrastructure needs over the coming decades is to enact a local tax funded by growth to pay for the new roads.

I know that Charlotte/Meck's legislative agenda (and others in the state including the Triangle and Wilmington) includes exactly this plan... that the GA would grant counties the ability to locally fund additional projects by taxing themselves (real estate transfer is favored in Meck, but others could be impact fees, local sales tax, VMT tax, etc). It might just happen. If so, Charlotte DOT would fund and build lower tier roadways (anything below freeways/expressways) and let DOT concentrate on the rest. It makes a lot of sense and I hope it comes to pass in 2007.

A2 wrote:

It is MUCH MORE sensible to focus on retaining the jobs and businesses that you do have, than hoping to lure them in.

The larger corporations are the majority stakeholders in these roads to nowhere, since they are by far the largest tax payers in the state.

These giants (BofA, NuCor, Goodrich, Wachovia, Lowe's I can go on and on...) will relocate if infastructure needs hamper growth. That is a MAJOR reason ATL has had so much success in recruiting and retaining Big Business.

I believe in fiscal responsibilty! By building roads to nowhere that cost millions to the tax payer is absurd, when you have the largest metro between ATL and DC in the dark. There is simple maintnance that is being neglected in our large urban centers, while muti-million dollar projects go on at a break neck pace in rural NC.

I have actually contacted lawyers to see if persons involved in accidents could sue the state for being liable due to negligence, when it comes to miles of unlit roads.

It is so dark on most roads and major interchanges that it has become a real hazard. All the while, we continue to plow away some more of our green space in RURAL North Carolina, in the hopes of luring jobs and business. I don't only not buy it, but I believe it to be the biggest crock of crap ever.

I DON'T WANT MY SCENIC NC MOUNTAINS AND BEACHES TO HAVE EIGHT LANE HIGHWAYS PLOWED THROUGH THEM. (This is the one reason I moved to NC, it natural diversity and beauty.) If people in Rural NC are concerned over their economic situation, maybe they should consider moving to the city for a job. There are plenty to choose from.

I'm going to play devil's advocate here...

It strikes me as a bit elitist to say the people in the rural parts of the state should just move to the city, or basically accept their lot in life as a rural community with no prospect for improvement or a good economy (the American dream) while the urban areas of the state prosper. I agree that we need to keep NC "clean and green" as the old TV ads used to say, but a balance needs to be kept.

As far as being fiscally responsible, a lot of people would argue that the City of Charlotte hasn't been the best model after building a $450M+ transit line and a $200M+ arena that voters rejected. Why couldn't some of that money have been spent of roads?

A2 wrote:

What the heck does that have to do with simply maintaining our current roads, by keeping them clean, safe and lit!

Answer:

NOT A DAMN THING!!!

It's not as clear as it's all one group's fault. I don't want to break Kumba Ya, but we are in this together. Local govts play a role and the state does too. What Otto is saying is that growth with little control is a cause that has effects on what government can realistically do. DOT, CMS, everyone feels the growing pains. There is so much money to be spent on improving roads that it places unneeded fiscal pressure on mantenance. As more people drive on more roads, more often, they need improvement resurfacing, etc. You can't keep expanding the system and expect the system at an exponential rate and have a system that was designed in the 1920s be able to keep up.

If politicians at the local (land use and growth policies) and state level (transp funding and archaic DOT structure) understood the issues and faced up to the harsh realities we would have comprehensive solutions. Unfortunately, as is so often the case in politics, it turns into a blame game and/or a money grab (us vs them), and nothing significant is accomplished until enough people get fed up with the entire system.

I'm cautiously optimistic that some positive, substantive legislative changes will occur in this years GA session. (fingers crossed)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have heard a couple Charlotte policitians say that the City has spent some $200M+ for improvement of State maintained roads over the years that the State will never reimburse us for.

So the precedent of spending local tax money on State roads in Charlotte was set a long time ago.

And when you look at it from a bottom line standpoint, it really doesn't matter if the feds, state or local govt pay for the roads, it all comes out of the same pockets. Ours.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That is my view, too, U/L. Since it is coming from our pockets any, with the federal portion hardly coming back to us much at all, it is far better to raise taxes for money to come back only to our locality, and unlock additional federal money back to this city.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

According to the paper, the inner beltway will have those solar lights retrofitted on the poles them instead of getting the wiring fixed. It will be an interesting experiment since these lights are 1/3 as bright as what was originally up there. As I said earlier in this thread, I don't think these lights are really bright enough to overcome the nighttime light pollution that we have here now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1/3 as bright is probably better than nothing. However, I wonder if we should ask them to wait a couple years (we've waited so long already), as LEDs are making strides in brightness. Seoul Seminconductor has created a an LED that is 220 lumens per bulb at 150 lumens per watt. That is getting closer to the efficiency of sodium lights.

But I'm glad they are using solar. Maybe people will start to think, well, the streetlights are solar, maybe I should put them on top of my house.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I did a quick search and I think these new LEDs are actually 100 lumens per watt, and that's initial brightness in very controlled laboratory conditions, not sustained brightness after 5,000 hours of operation, frequently in the dead of winter. I doubt if anybody knows how they'll perform after 5,000 hours, because the technology hasn't been around that long yet :)

220 lumens per bulb is decent, though. A 1,000 watt soduim streetlamp puts out in the neighborhood of 120,000 lumens, which would mean 500-600 of these LEDs are needed to match the output of a streetlamp. That's reasonable, given the form factor of highway streetlamps. Sounds expensive, though, but prices will come down.

It would take 1200 watts to produce as much light as a high-pressure sodium lamp produces with 1,000, a difference which is becoming more and more neglegible. Let's just wait and see how / when this technology makes the transition from the lab desk to a commercially available product.

I'm still puzzled as to why they can't make a solar-powered sodium lamp, because the technology is mature, cheap, widely available, reliable, and more efficient than LEDs.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here was my source, and you are right, it was 100 lumens/watt now, and likely a 145 lumen/watt in 2008.

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2006/12/new_led_puts_in.php

I wondered about a solar power sodium lamp last year but people seemed to say that much power was not possible with solar power and batteries. I don't know if it is possible to do smaller versions of sodium lights, but I would agree with you if that is possible.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Now, if we would have just not sqaundered over 100M on the South Light Rail Line, we would be able to light every Interstate, Highway, and Boulevard in the entire metro.... :(

I can't believe a measly 1-2M is all that was needed to light (at least to some degree) the inner belt. If this were the case the job should have been done years ago. Even reto-fitting the lighting at 6-7M seems reasonably cheap in today's dollars to light the entire loop.

A2

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I still can't believe Duke Power isn't responsible for covering the costs. How hard is it to wire a light that is 20 yards from a building that is served by Duke Power? Apparently, in Charlotte (with Deliverance banjos playing the background), that's just too dag gummed hard to fegre out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I still can't believe Duke Power isn't responsible for covering the costs. How hard is it to wire a light that is 20 yards from a building that is served by Duke Power? Apparently, in Charlotte (with Deliverance banjos playing the background), that's just too dag gummed hard to fegre out.

True ^^^^ :lol:

A2

(BTW,I can hear the duling banjos now. Scary)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

both of those pictures are shining examples of sprawl. but, the most suprising thing to me is the lake norman shot... not b/c it so developed... but, b/c i remember when it wasn't that developed. i do still see a few undeveloped parcels down there... so, look forward to more, more, more.

is lake norman an incorporated town? if not, why?

btw, MC... i am delighted that you got yourself a camera. UP is benefitting.

Edited by cinco
Link to comment
Share on other sites

is lake norman an incorporated town? if not, why?

btw, MC... i am delighted that you got yourself a camera. UP is benefitting.

The area above is actually part of Huntersville, and part of Cornelius. I believe Cornelius considered changing it's name to Lake Norman once, but the people there were not real happy with that idea so it died.

In terms of sprawl it's probably better developed than 95% of Charlotte.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So a superfreeway interchange, a shopping mall and ground being stripped for an automall is not sprawl and a small area of gridded neighborhoods is unending sprawl? LOL Doesn't exactly sound like an unbiased opinion to me.

It's ALL sprawl. In my admittedly biased opinion the entire northern end of Mecklenburg County (and southern Iredell) has become one giant, overbuilt tangle of poorly-planned, cookie cutter suburbia filled with plastic houses and overburdened roads. And it's only getting worse. I-77 between Charlotte and Mooresville has become a parking lot, yet they keep building and building. Of course, when this interchange at 485 finally opens, the traffic clogs on northbound 77 will become even worse than they already are, especially since it appears the state won't be widening the interstate north of Huntersville within our lifetimes. While hardly a unique occurence in our area, Northern Meck/southern Iredell are choking on growth....and they're strangling I-77 along with it.

BTW, great shots, MC!

Edited by PlazaMidwoodGuy
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site you agree to our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy. We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.