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Middle and Upper Income Traditional Families in Grand Rapids


michaelskis

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Amazing.. once again a discussion about problems in GR somehow turns into bash Wyoming. I was tempted to ask DSchoon about his definition of stagnation and more specifics, but I figured that this thread was really about Grand Rapids, and not Wyoming. But I guess Wyoming is going to get dragged into the discussion and somehow made the scapegoat.

There's no doubt that changes in the manufacturing industry have hit Wyoming hard, but I think Wyoming's biggest challenges will be in the next decade. Wyoming has a variety of housing and almost of it is affordable. School district reputation, while not stellar, is decent. Crime rate is below the national average and lower than GR, Kentwood, Holland, Kalamazoo, Battle Creek, Lansing(*)... the budget is in good shape. These characteristics will always be appealing to middle class families.

I'm not seeing how Wyoming is somehow being confused as misrepresenting Grand Rapids.

(*) based on 2004 crime statistics from areaconnect.com

I'm afraid this is due to stereotypes. The same people you hear say it's not safe in downtown Grand Rapids - are the same people who instantly equate 28th St. to "Wyoming". Granted I hate driving up and down 28th, but sometimes it's a necesary evil. But all the roads in between are (for the most part) beautiful neighborhoods.

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Yesterday at the Labor Day picnic a politician asked me where I lived, since he is running to represent some of the burbs. I said I didn't move here from metro Detroit to live in another suburb. City, man, the city!

...I'm not sure how much was ante'd up for the Kalamazoo Promise, but could anything like that fly in Grand Rapids? I would think this would be the kind of thing a Fred Meijer-type would be willing to hang his hat on...

At Fountain Street there's much discussion about a church-funded scholarship (yes, just one, but still...). Presumably other congregations are talking about similar efforts. I would be really surprised if the usual suspects aren't putting their heads together prior to assembling their $$$.

(Wonder how much of a GR Promise endowment all those political ads could have funded?)

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One of my dog clients lives on GR Town Planner's street, and the homes there are positively jaw-dropping in their elegance and exquisite building standards. It's a pleasure to walk there.

Regarding some folks' reluctance to live in the city...many are disdainful of old/older houses. Other people lived there before! People who are probably < gulp > DEAD by now! EEuuuwwwwww! That sort of attitude.

I'm always taken aback by the phrase "used house" or "used housing stock"; as if stinking, off-gassing, newly-thrown-up drywall palaces are somehow the norm! I guess some people insist on sharing their new digs with mold.

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I cannot believe anyone would call that a DMZ. Rosewood and Gladstone, just west and still part of Ottawa Hills are equally as impressive (if not as large) as are many of the homes I bike past in the GR part of the Ottawa Hills neighborhood.

agreed. it's not the way i've used the term "DMZ" in reference to this neighborhood. i grew up on the west side of a block of Gladstone between Ottawa Hills and Aquinas. i used "DMZ" to describe all the backyards on my side of the block: the last line of defense between EGR and heathen Eastown =;-)

i thought it was a great neighborhood to grow up in: EGR schools (the mixed bag of good and evil that is) and only a block and a half away from everything Eastown has to offer.

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If so, where in GR. Where would you not want to raise your kids? I guess I am asking about what you would personally do?

I know personally, I love living in the Heritage Hill neighborhood and the GF and I plan to stay there, raise our kids, and send them to Catholic School.

I would seriously consider any of these areas, although some of these are a bit out of our price range for the room we'd need:

Aquinas area from Robinson all the way North to Michigan

Ottawa Hills (Cambridge has some of the most striking homes in the area)

Heritage Hill

EGR

Plainfield/Cheshire Village area

Riverside Park area

Burton/Breton area

Alger Heights

Mulick Park area

It's tough though when you look at a house in really bad shape and figure you need to put $20 - $30K into it before it's even bearable.

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I hope to raise the kids downtown, to me it seems like such an experience as a kid to start in downtown from day 1, in that case they'd be going to St. Andrews/Catholic Central. I enjoy the fact that they should be able to walk to school. I always had a 45 minute bus ride, so to me walking would be a serious upgrade.

DeVos has gone on record stating that anything free isn't worth having when posed the question about a GR Promise (sorry, I don't have the exact quote on hand, I will post if I find it.), so it doesn't appear he would be the one fronting the $. But as someone said, that type of program seems like its up Fred Meijer's alley. My 2 cents.

Fred definately would be the man to start the "GR Promise" My other guess would be the Frey family.

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I hope to raise the kids downtown, to me it seems like such an experience as a kid to start in downtown from day 1, in that case they'd be going to St. Andrews/Catholic Central. I enjoy the fact that they should be able to walk to school. I always had a 45 minute bus ride, so to me walking would be a serious upgrade.

DeVos has gone on record stating that anything free isn't worth having when posed the question about a GR Promise (sorry, I don't have the exact quote on hand, I will post if I find it.), so it doesn't appear he would be the one fronting the $. But as someone said, that type of program seems like its up Fred Meijer's alley. My 2 cents.

That was dad.

According to the April 18 Grand Rapids Press, he said: "If it's free, it's not worth much" to the student who receives it.

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article...31/1068/OPINION

"I have kids who work for me who don't have a college education that make millions of dollars. They play basketball," he said, referring to his Orlando Magic players Dwight Howard and DeShawn Stevenson, who entered the NBA draft after high school.

In one fell swoop, DeVos not only disparaged the magnificent gift anonymous donors presented to the Kalamazoo community, he reinforced a damaging message to minority teenagers: Don't worry about doing well in school or earning a college degree. You'll always have professional basketball to rely on.

Looks like this was part of an editorial in the K'zoo Gazette. I found it here: http://www.michiganvotes.org/Comment.aspx?...ActionID=151994

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I refuse to believe that (especially with the context of this discussion being Ottawa Hills neighborhood)

Cambridge/Rosewood/Gladstone stretch between Franklin and Hall is part of Ottawa Hills and EGR.

The home values in that stretch match or eclipse anything in EGR that isn't on the lakefront.

Cambridge has a string of tudors between Franklin and Alexnader that is among the nicest I've ever seen. Anywhere.

I cannot believe anyone would call that a DMZ. Rosewood and Gladstone, just west and still part of Ottawa Hills are equally as impressive (if not as large) as are many of the homes I bike past in the GR part of the Ottawa Hills neighborhood.

A question: Does the Ottawa Hills neighborhood association include both EGR and GR sections of the neighborhood?

True. While I've never heard the term DMZ used, it's certainly a perception in EGR, going back to the 1970s, that if you live west of Cambridge, you're living life on the edge. There was a lot of racial tension between EGR High and Ottawa Hills High in the late 1960s and early 70s, before Ottawa Hills opened on Burton, especially evident the night the two schools would meet to play football at East. Also, when Calvin moved from Franklin and Giddings to the Beltline, that part of GR experienced white flight.

Today, it's a lingering perception based on racism, but also on reality. This past May, right outside a Middle School graduation ceremony at the old Ottawa Hills High, there was a shooting. That's two blocks from Gladstone. The EGR police basically run a border patrol, frequently cruising the Franklin strip west of Cambridge.

It's not true that housing prices on the GR side of Ottawa Hills match or eclipse anything in EGR that isn't lakefront. There are some great homes on the GR streets like Pontiac, Cadillac and Mackinaw, but the prices per sq ft are not nearly what you pay on the EGR streets of Ottawa Hills like Rosewood, especially between Pontiac and Alexander. There was a home on Pontiac, first house on the GR side, that was sold this summer for less than $280K. If it had been one has over, on the EGR side, it would've been $400K.

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Interesting thread, but isn't there another side to this coin? Maybe the question should be more along the lines of why does poverty continue to be concentrated in Grand Rapids... and now some of the inner ring burbs? If I recall correctly, the news a few weeks ago was that one out of five in GR live in poverty, and that figure jumps to one out of three when you look at kids.

Is this really an issue of the rich moving out? Or an issue of making sure the poor stay in one place?

Sure, we can talk about this or that "affordable housing" development here or there in the hinterland, but the reality is that many suburban communities don't have and aren't too interested in developing the infrastructure upon which many new and low-income families rely... things like transit, seriously walkable communities, affordable housing (including both rental and owner occupied), mixed use for jobs nearby, and more.

We can try to pin it on the schools, but the reality is the GRPS gets the hand it's dealt. I think we, as a community, need to face the fact that GRPS is just a symptom of the larger social problem of concentrated poverty. In that respect, I am amazed at the achievements of the system.

There are plenty of examples in this thread alone of how those with resources can afford to buy (or borrow) a way out of the City for their families. A more interesting question might be how we can invest in a livable city, rather than our own disinvestment.

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Regarding some folks' reluctance to live in the city...many are disdainful of old/older houses. Other people lived there before! People who are probably < gulp > DEAD by now! EEuuuwwwwww! That sort of attitude.

Not neccessarily. I absolutely love some of the older homes in HH. . . .but I personally know folks who have bought homes there . . .remember the movie "The Money Pit" . . .well, there you go. . . they have sunk thousands and thousands of dollars in renovations, bringing heating and electrical systems up to code, repairing various items some of which in order to keep the original style of the home (for instance lead glass windows) require a higher cost . . . a lot of folks don't want to be bothered w/ contant repairs and thus choose new . . .can you blame them?

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Not neccessarily. I absolutely love some of the older homes in HH. . . .but I personally know folks who have bought homes there . . .remember the movie "The Money Pit" . . .well, there you go. . . they have sunk thousands and thousands of dollars in renovations, bringing heating and electrical systems up to code, repairing various items some of which in order to keep the original style of the home (for instance lead glass windows) require a higher cost . . . a lot of folks don't want to be bothered w/ contant repairs and thus choose new . . .can you blame them?

True, most home in HH have a long history but that is what makes it great. My brother bought a 123 year old home in HH. It's a 3 unit and thus income property. He has put a lot of time and money into it but it looks great now. I guess older homes are for people that like getting their hands dirty and enjoy tinkering with stuff.

It is a great reward to see an old home restored.

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One of my best friends was lived on Alexander on the Grand Rapids side of Ottawa Hills. He went through the GRPS and seemed to turn out just fine. If I could afford it I would love to have a home in Ottawa Hills, or Heritage Hill for that matter.

But, I'm single and not looking to raise a family for a little while yet.

I don't think yard size is a huge factor for most people. We have land available in Michigan, so it's not hard to get a big yard if you really want it. I do think more affluent families set their basic housing requirements high in terms of kitchens, bathrooms, bedrooms, and garage space though, which can be harder to find in older homes.

Like an earlier poster, I also recently bought a house in Fulton Heights. My driveway sits right on the property line and my neighbor's house is about 4 feet past that. We are really close together, but that density is also what helps to build a good community. Why not walk to the park to throw a football around? It's just a waste of resources to have your own huge private back yard. A whole acre is only really necessary if you don't have city sewer hookups and need a drainage field. Why not go to the park where there will be other people where your kids might be able to get a pick-up game going?

I rented one of my rooms for a short while to a guy moving here from Chicago. He had to sell his house there first before buying one in Grand Rapids and moving his family up. He really wasn't considering the city because of the schools, and did not hide the fact that he didn't like that they were "99% black." Hey, at least he was honest. :rolleyes: He ended up buying a house in the City anyway (Alger Heights) but decided to either home school or send his kids to a private school.

-nb

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True, most home in HH have a long history but that is what makes it great. My brother bought a 123 year old home in HH. It's a 3 unit and thus income property. He has put a lot of time and money into it but it looks great now. I guess older homes are for people that like getting their hands dirty and enjoy tinkering with stuff.

It is a great reward to see an old home restored.

I thank God for people like your brother (and my landlord and her maintenance crew). I am able to afford a really cool, beautifully maintained apartment in Heritage Hill on a modest income. I have great architectural details you just wouldn't find in the 'burbs - 12 ft ceilings, hardwood floors, huge bay window in LR and a bedroom on a turret with some round walls.

I am very mechanically inclined and am a computer repair tech for a living, however, I am not very "handy" with houses. My heat is included in the rent and I don't have to worry about repairs. If the roof leaks - and it did right after I moved in - I simply pick up the phone and the landlord has someone right on it. I was really lucky and found a great landlord after unloading a money pit on the west side. The houses in our westside neighborhood were so poorly constructed, you would be better off knocking them down and starting over. The few people who own in our block are all trying to sell - the rest are slumlords. My ex-husband who is still a dear friend is trying desperately to fix it up enough to sell it - was in the process of jacking up the front porch this weekend - a huge dirty job. There are many blocks that could really benefit from some good development there. Maybe like the ICCF did over in Madison Square with the family-friendly townhouses...

I've lived and traveled all over the US. To have such a great choice of relatively affordable and cool housing options in Heritage Hill, Eastown, Fulton & Diamond area, etc, is very rare and a real treasure. GR rocks!

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Interesting thread, but isn't there another side to this coin? Maybe the question should be more along the lines of why does poverty continue to be concentrated in Grand Rapids... and now some of the inner ring burbs? If I recall correctly, the news a few weeks ago was that one out of five in GR live in poverty, and that figure jumps to one out of three when you look at kids.

Is this really an issue of the rich moving out? Or an issue of making sure the poor stay in one place?

Sure, we can talk about this or that "affordable housing" development here or there in the hinterland, but the reality is that many suburban communities don't have and aren't too interested in developing the infrastructure upon which many new and low-income families rely... things like transit, seriously walkable communities, affordable housing (including both rental and owner occupied), mixed use for jobs nearby, and more.

We can try to pin it on the schools, but the reality is the GRPS gets the hand it's dealt. I think we, as a community, need to face the fact that GRPS is just a symptom of the larger social problem of concentrated poverty. In that respect, I am amazed at the achievements of the system.

There are plenty of examples in this thread alone of how those with resources can afford to buy (or borrow) a way out of the City for their families. A more interesting question might be how we can invest in a livable city, rather than our own disinvestment.

Blame the NIMBY-ism attitude of many suberbanites. Gosh we would not want to spoil their view of that corn feild out their picture window with somthing that would be good for every body. Seriously, there has always been a conflict between rich and poor for as long as humanity has walked the face of the Earth. Why? It's simple, dispite the human ability to show compasion to those in need of help, there is always a strong temptation to kick dirt in the faces of those down on their luck. That temptation is especialy magnified by the wealth and power the afluent have gained. Thus its up to individuals esp. those that have it made in the shade to fight that temptation and offer a helping hand when the need arises.

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DeVos has gone on record stating that anything free isn't worth having when posed the question about a GR Promise (sorry, I don't have the exact quote on hand, I will post if I find it.), so it doesn't appear he would be the one fronting the $. But as someone said, that type of program seems like its up Fred Meijer's alley. My 2 cents.

Having students complete 4 years of high school, graduate with a degree, and doing so with some kind of minium standard (must have 2.0+ average, or something along those lines), doesn't seem like giving kids that EARN those things a scholarship to an in-state public university (or perhaps equivalent payment for in-state private college) is throwing away money.

Not to stereotype, but if I am correct, inner-city kids have a much lower graduation rate than suburban kids, and tend to be ethnic minorities as well. These are the types of students that most colleges are really trying to attract, so giving them an additional incentive to work hard in high school by giving them a college scholarship is a major win-win-win-win situation for the kids, the community they come from, the high schools they go to, and the colleges that attract them.

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As a 23 year old college senior who grew up in Eastown, and attended GR Public schools his from k-12, I can say I turned out just fine.

Something irks me about the attutide toward the GRPS people have. Here is the opinion of someone who has been an INSIDER.

A school system is like a car. It needs constant upkeep and maintenance.

Well, instead of actually TRYING to HELP the system out, and make it a BETTER PLACE, people cut and run to the suburbs. It's just a model of our throw-away society. The system is abandonned to those who do not have the financial abilities to help the system out like those in EGR, Rockford, and FHS do. It's all about PROPERTY VALUES and PROPERTY TAXES here ladies and gents.

So, instead of saying "geez, WE should really start something" because the school board cannot do everything by itself, they run away, and then turn around, and rip on the system. "Oh its so horrible".

The teachers are these schools should be awarded medals, as they do more with faaarr less resources than do the teachers at the suburban schools.

If all anyone does is complain....and not do anything....what do you THINK is going to happen!?

Just like a car, the system will not run as it should.

I know this is a random rant, but I'm sick of everyone RIPPING GRPS(not referring to this board, just making my opinions known).

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