What do you think North Carolina's larger cities would be like today if they had downtown Freeways?

[Atlside]

Wait a second, if Washington doesn't have an interstate runing into its core, then what exactly is I-395?

I guess you could say that I-395 does go into the heart of DC. But, it's only a spur and not like I-95 going into the city.

The main freeway in DC is the Baltimore-Washington Parkway MD 295 and I-295 Anacostia Freeway.

Isn't only the states of North Carolina and South Carolina that have major Interstate highways bypassing their major cities cores?

Is I-77 Charlotte the only Interstate that enters the downtown core in North Carolina and South Carolina?

Also, do you think they should rename the Durham Freeway to I-340 or I-385 or I-585

[Jerseyman4]

I guess you could say that I-395 does go into the heart of DC. But, it's only a spur and not like I-95 going into the city.

I-395 goes under between the National Mall and the US Capitol so it certainly goes through the heart of DC in my opinion.

Isn't only the states of North Carolina and South Carolina that have major Interstate highways bypassing their major cities cores?

Is I-77 Charlotte the only Interstate that enters the downtown core in North Carolina and South Carolina?

Business 40 (formely I-40) through Winston is the only interstate that really goes through downtown out of all of the other interstates (the interchanges and geometry of the highway, provide clues). I-77 does not enter the downtown core but comes very close of it.

Also, do you think they should rename the Durham Freeway to I-340 or I-385 or I-585

I could careless about NC 147/Durham Freeway if it gets an interstate designation. It would of been nice if it started out as I-40 but it never did. Of course, knowing NCDOT, NC 147 would of been Business 40 and the existening I-40 that we know of, running between Chapel Hill and Durham, would of been under construction and finished in the last 5-10 years. The interchange at US 15/501 would of been much different because by then, the engineers would of realized this intersection would need to be a cloverleaf with C/D lanes.

[Atlside]

Business 40 (formely I-40) through Winston is the only interstate that really goes through downtown out of all of the other interstates (the interchanges and geometry of the highway, provide clues). I-77 does not enter the downtown core but comes very close of it.

I could careless about NC 147/Durham Freeway if it gets an interstate designation. It would of been nice if it started out as I-40 but it never did. Of course, knowing NCDOT, NC 147 would of been Business 40 and the existening I-40 that we know of, running between Chapel Hill and Durham, would of been under construction and finished in the last 5-10 years. The interchange at US 15/501 would of been much different because by then, the engineers would of realized this intersection would need to be a cloverleaf with C/D lanes.

I-77 does go into Charlotte's downtown core. I-77 and I-277 is Charlotte's core.

What's up with North Caroina giving Business Interstate numbers? They should have renamed the old I-40 in downtown Winston-Salem something like I-140 or something like that.

This map shows how I-77 is in the heart of Charlotte.

Or check this map out

http://www.mapcharlotte.com/images/map_uptownchlt.jpg

[krazeeboi]

I consider Charlotte's core the area bounded by I-277 (Uptown). In that respect I-77 does not go through the core. I would consider I-85 and I-20 to go through Atlanta's core, and clearly that's not the case for I-77 through Charlotte.

[Atlside]

I consider Charlotte's core the area bounded by I-277 (Uptown). In that respect I-77 does not go through the core. I would consider I-85 and I-20 to go through Atlanta's core, and clearly that's not the case for I-77 through Charlotte.

How does I-277 bound Uptown and Not I-77? The distance from I-277 to Trade and Tryon is about the same as the distance from I-77. That's like saying the freeways that form a loop around downtown Houston and Dallas don't go into the core of the city.

Houston

Dallas

[Jerseyman4]

Im still not convinced

[krazeeboi]

I-77 doesn't bound Uptown because it's not a loop; to bound something you must totally surround it. I-77 doesn't do that. Yes it goes through the city of Charlotte, but it doesn't go through Uptown. Uptown is pretty well-defined by I-277, and obviously I-77 doesn't go THROUGH that area.

I've not been to Houston or Dallas so I can't speak for them.

[Jerseyman4]

Not only is I-277 well defined through Uptown, it destroyed and fragmented some of Uptown too.

[Atlside]

I-77 doesn't bound Uptown because it's not a loop; to bound something you must totally surround it. I-77 doesn't do that. Yes it goes through the city of Charlotte, but it doesn't go through Uptown. Uptown is pretty well-defined by I-277, and obviously I-77 doesn't go THROUGH that area.

I've not been to Houston or Dallas so I can't speak for them.

You don't have to go to Dallas or Houston. Those 2 cities have a downtown loop like Charlotte.

It's odd that you say only I-277 is in the core of Charlotte and I-77 isn't. Yet, Gateway Plaza and the other Gateway projects are right up on I-77. Also 3rd and 4th wards are bound by I-77.

The map above shows clearly that I-77 is in downtown (Uptown) Charlotte.

[flith]

What's up with North Caroina giving Business Interstate numbers? They should have renamed the old I-40 in downtown Winston-Salem something like I-140 or something like that.

Why does NC use so many Business Interstate routes, why not 3di's like I-240 in Ashevilleor I-540 in Raleigh? Other than 1 or 2 business interstate routes in GA I've never noticed any others in my travels.

[RaleighRob]

What's up with North Caroina giving Business Interstate numbers? They should have renamed the old I-40 in downtown Winston-Salem something like I-140 or something like that.

Good question. They aren't all over the state though...mostly in the Triad plus 95 in Fayetteville.

From what I know, they're all "Old" Interstates that have been replaced by newer bypasses.

Since that is how Business/Bypass designations occur on US Routes, and sometimes NC Routes, I guess NCDOT figured the same rule should apply to the Interstates.

Sometimes though, it's a little silly and redundant. Business 40 in Winston-Salem is also signed US 421. So when the new I-40 was built, they shoulda just left the old one "US 421" and not bother with the silly Business 40 designation.

Likewise, Business 85 from Lexington to HighPoint is also signed as US 70/29...so what's the point of adding Business 85 on top of that?

But oh well, what do I know, right? lol

[monsoon]

This is not unique to NC. I-20 east becomes I-20 spur into Florence once it crosses I-95 going east. It uses the same kind of sign as that of I-40 business in Winston. There is also a business I-85 through Spartanburg that parallels the newer I-85 that bypasses the city.

[Atlside]

Good question. They aren't all over the state though...mostly in the Triad plus 95 in Fayetteville.

From what I know, they're all "Old" Interstates that have been replaced by newer bypasses.

Since that is how Business/Bypass designations occur on US Routes, and sometimes NC Routes, I guess NCDOT figured the same rule should apply to the Interstates.

Sometimes though, it's a little silly and redundant. Business 40 in Winston-Salem is also signed US 421. So when the new I-40 was built, they shoulda just left the old one "US 421" and not bother with the silly Business 40 designation.

Likewise, Business 85 from Lexington to HighPoint is also signed as US 70/29...so what's the point of adding Business 85 on top of that?

But oh well, what do I know, right? lol

I wonder why they didn't replace the Business Interstate I-40 didn't become say: I-740 or I-340.

The old I-85 in Greensboro could have been renamed I-185 or I-985 or something like that.

Take a look at how Atlanta has I-575, I-985 and I-675

I-675 is so short should it even have an interstate number?

Surely if I-675 can get an interstate number the old I-40 and old I-85 in North Carolina should have kept an interstate numbering system of some kind outside of the Business Interstate number system. Even Durham's NC 147 should have been numbered I-140 or something on that line. Seeing the Raleigh Beltline was able to get the number I-440.

Raleigh 1982

Raleigh 1984

Raleigh Current

The I-440 designation was given June 9, 1991

[Noneck_08]

Old 40 and 85 are not up to standards in order to be an interstate. 85 between Lexington and Thomasville only has about 3 limited acess interchages...the rest are just at-grade crossings. 40 threw Winston has alot of dangerous on and off ramps. It also has little of a shoulder. It would have to go under a major restruction project. Now Bus 85 threw central G-boro is another subject. It could be a signed as a new interstate along with the 40 section after the bypass is finished. NCDOT is so screwed up.

O and forgive me for the spelling...

[Jerseyman4]

I am ok with the highway numbers the way they are. Not every freeway must be an interstate designation!

[Creasy336]

I am for dropping most of the business designations and leaving them US routes. I also believe that atleast I-40 through Greensboro should be a 3-digit interstate once the bypass is built. Most of the section is modern with stretches of 6 to 8 lanes throughout its entirety. since we are out of I-x40s in NC with even designations I suppose it could be I-685.

[Jerseyman4]

^Like Business 95 through Fayetteville should be just US 301, agreed

Business 40 through Winston should be just US 421, agreed as well

[ChiefJoJo]

Bus 85 threw central G-boro is another subject. It could be a signed as a new interstate along with the 40 section after the bypass is finished.

As I understand it, I40 will be signed along the bypass when it's finished to the west near PTI.

The idea that downtown interstates make a better DT core or skyline to me is rediculous. If you point to Richmond, Atlanta, or Dallas as examples, those cities DT cores were established well before the interstates were built through them. If anything, the interstates did more to hurt than help, as the poster from Asheville mentioned. They helped kill many urban areas by fueling suburban growth in the 50s and beyond. The only true example of a DT interstate in NC is old I-40 through Winston, which for quite a while was one of the more established cities in NC due to the precense of RJR and Wachovia.

I think it's worth mentioning that the vast majority of the DT interstates built in the US would not be able to be constructed today (or in the last few decades) due to increasingly strict environmental regulations of the past 30 years. That's why other states have better freeway systems than NC (they were built 40-50 years ago) and why it takes so long to build new roads today.

I think the interstate system would have worked much better if strict land uses were implemented so that freeways didn't serve to fuel suburban growth, but merely long-distance travel as was the original intention.

[cityboi]

One thing to keep in mind is that church st in Burlington is also HWY 70. Today, while not a vibrant busy highway as we know both 85 and 40 to be...at one time was a big deal for traveling into and through Burlington. It cuts right beside downtown today. (as well as from town to town as you travel east to west and vice versa)

Another thing to consider is that Market St in Greensboro is also old 421. This definately cuts through town.

Neither highway is a 40 or 85, but at one time carried their weight in importance.

That is true....before the great Interstates, the main highways did go through downtown Greensboro. But there was SOO much traffic, they had to build the current highway 29, one mile east of downtown and the new interstates. I use to think freeways were good for downtowns. In some cities they are. But in Greensboro's case im glad I-40 or I-85 doesnt slice through downtown Greensboro. it kills the connectivity between downtown and the surrounding neighborhoods. These neighborhoods help make downtown vibrant and downtown helps make these neighborhoods vibrant. So you dont want to cut the neighborhhods off from downtowns with freeways. Charlotte is now seeing the light, The city wants to cap part of I-277 on the south side of downtown. The Great thing about Greensboro is that I-85 (now business 85) doesnt cut through downtown but its close enough to the downtown area, only about 2 and a half miles south of downtown. Greensboro, Durham, Wilmington, Asheville and Raleigh are all very lucky not to have freeways slicing through downtown. The only thing, I wish Greensboro's skyline were visible from the interstates.

I love the College Hill Neighborhood which borders the west side of downtown Greensboro. Its almost like a small town within a city with the corner stores in old historic buildings. More of this is found further west of College Hill and UNCG along Spring Garden Street. BTW, Bike lanes have been added on Spring Garden Street in College Hill which connects with downtown.

[flith]

Old 40 and 85 are not up to standards in order to be an interstate. 85 between Lexington and Thomasville only has about 3 limited acess interchages...the rest are just at-grade crossings. 40 threw Winston has alot of dangerous on and off ramps. It also has little of a shoulder. It would have to go under a major restruction project. Now Bus 85 threw central G-boro is another subject. It could be a signed as a new interstate along with the 40 section after the bypass is finished. NCDOT is so screwed up.

O and forgive me for the spelling...

Sounds like I-124 in Chattanooga, TN. (short ramps/sharp turns/no shoulders) I don't think the 3di part was even two miles. TDOT doesn't sign it I-124 anymore though. It's just referred to as US 27, to eliminate confusion and to eliminate cosigning.

[Jerseyman4]

I think the interstate system would have worked much better if strict land uses were implemented so that freeways didn't serve to fuel suburban growth, but merely long-distance travel as was the original intention.

The Autostrada system in Italy serves that exact purpose and works well, they bypass the major & mid-sized cities.

[NcSc74]

"The only thing, I wish Greensboro's skyline were visible from the interstates."

I agree with you totally. You do see industry, southside neighborhoods and the four season area. Its like there is a big build up leading into the city from the east. The way 40/85 is built from Burlington to right before the G-boro city limits. Then its like ok all of this stuff but where are the buildings and the cbd. I know on 421 northbound you get a nice skyline view. I imagine that part of 421 5-7 miles out is on a hill close to height of the freakin hill on 40 that blocks your view. Do you like the drive on 29. It has hints of urban G-boro especially when you get around to Bessemer. One more thing. That mess of an interchange at 40/85 split. Is that still there like I remember it. I know DOT was doing work on that part of 40/85 when I left in 95.

[RALBOI]

Thank god I-95, doesn't run into Raleigh, because the city would have a much higher crime rate, I also think Raleigh would be bigger if it did, but certainly not better.

[NcSc74]

^Like Business 95 through Fayetteville should be just US 301, agreed

Business 40 through Winston should be just US 421, agreed as well

I wish the state house and senatewould drop all green designated highways. There is no benefit to these archaic designations anymore. They are a link to NCs backwards past where a percieved boost to local economies because of a highway association with an interstate. These "green shields" are not needed anymore. It seems the same people who thought this would be a good idea were the same people that routed one of the most recognized interstates, around and away from our cities. I-95 could have came a bit cloeser to Raleigh and certainly there was nothing stopping it from at least coming within 4 miles of downtown Fayetteville. I guess they didn't want all of those nasty yankee folk coming down 95 spreading there crime and drugs. For the life of me I never understood that way of thinking. Prove to me that a major interstate brings a higher murder, drug and violent crime rate. I am certain some crime is related but not to the extent of a major shift in crime stats. I state my case for the eradication of business green shields.

First of all GPS/Nav units in vehicles these days feed real time map info to travelers negating the need for such over top designation. Second travelers use mapquest and google maps that can easily map out a route clearly showing where all of the resturants, hotels etc...so there is no way anyone can get lost because they didn't know that hwy 301 leads into the city of Fayetteville. Third why not be creative NC and name business 40/85 what have you after a famous person of you city, county, region. Give it a historical designation or for the cluster of industry expamples...tri-city expressway, piedmont parkway, colonial connector, moravia highway, metro-salem thruway, eastern higway, military highway, nathaniel greene parkway...not saying these are great names just a way to get rid of these d@#$ green shields and give NC cities more character.

Does anyone else have ideas for names of stretches of "green" designated highways I would be interested to see them.

[Jerseyman4]

^Im sure you remember the former Business 95 designation along US 301 through Wilson and Rocky Mt