What do you think North Carolina's larger cities would be like today if they had downtown Freeways?

[JunktionFET]

I don't always buy the urbanist argument that all "downtown freeways" divide a city. People are always going to draw boundaries, they don't need a freeway to do it for them. Unfortunately freeways are often stereotyped--and if one is bad, then they all are bad, etc.

If I-77 and I-277 in Charlotte had never been built near Uptown, I guarantee there would still be a distinct transition upon entering "Uptown", though the boundary might be in a different location and/or blurred slightly more than it is today. Don't tell me that Uptown Charlotte in the late 1960s was anywhere near as bustling or exciting as it is today. If it was, then Charlotte would be the national poster child for urban decline, and we all know the exact opposite is true.

Just look at downtown Raleigh... It doesn't have any freeways nearby, however the social and economic transition is exceptionally clear and very abrupt. In fact, I'd wager that if you found someone who knew nothing about Raleigh but was completely against downtown freeways, you could describe downtown Raleigh and its surroundings to them and they would immediately blame it on a downtown freeway. Imagine their surprise when you inform them of the truth--that there is no freeway... and the closest one was constructed in 1985.

To be fair, sometimes downtown freeways are ugly, and sometimes the sheer scale and appearance tends to disrupt things... but come on, I-277 and I-77 in Charlotte are works of art compared to say, the old I-90 in Boston.

Today, the I-77 and I-277 loop defines a reborn Uptown Charlotte, along with "South End" and "Midtown". It actually encourages dense development because the space that can legitimately be called "Uptown" is clearly finite.

I fully support downtown freeways, as long as they are carefully planned and constructed to provide efficient access and minimal disruption.

[blburton]

I think the stretch of old 85 from new 85 to new 85 should be 385. The stretch of 40 from the 85/40 split in Death Valley out to future new 40 and old 40 should be 740 (or the Western Guilford Expressway, Joseph S. Koury Expressway, perhaps?) I think business interstates are stupid, confusing, and should be taken down now in NC's larger cities. Can we request that from the state house and Senate?? How f*ed up is it that you've got a business interstate and mainline interstate multiplexed in Greensboro I can't tell you how many times I've seen quick swereves or even stops in the the median right before the exit onto new/old 85 in Greensboro either way. None of the ones in NC serve a population of 500 residents in the middle of podunk, then hook up again with the mainline freeway 2 miles later... which is their purpose. What I think is interesting is that they're all over the place in the Triad and also in Fayetteville, but in very few other places in NC which are much less populated... if anywhere!! And the whole argument of "oh, it's gotta be up to interstate standards to be called an interstate" is complete BS. Death Valley's design on the whole isn't as bad as some other other sections of "interstates" I've been on.

I wish the state house and senatewould drop all green designated highways. There is no benefit to these archaic designations anymore. They are a link to NCs backwards past where a percieved boost to local economies because of a highway association with an interstate. These "green shields" are not needed anymore. It seems the same people who thought this would be a good idea were the same people that routed one of the most recognized interstates, around and away from our cities. I-95 could have came a bit cloeser to Raleigh and certainly there was nothing stopping it from at least coming within 4 miles of downtown Fayetteville. I guess they didn't want all of those nasty yankee folk coming down 95 spreading there crime and drugs. For the life of me I never understood that way of thinking. Prove to me that a major interstate brings a higher murder, drug and violent crime rate. I am certain some crime is related but not to the extent of a major shift in crime stats. I state my case for the eradication of business green shields.

First of all GPS/Nav units in vehicles these days feed real time map info to travelers negating the need for such over top designation. Second travelers use mapquest and google maps that can easily map out a route clearly showing where all of the resturants, hotels etc...so there is no way anyone can get lost because they didn't know that hwy 301 leads into the city of Fayetteville. Third why not be creative NC and name business 40/85 what have you after a famous person of you city, county, region. Give it a historical designation or for the cluster of industry expamples...tri-city expressway, piedmont parkway, colonial connector, moravia highway, metro-salem thruway, eastern higway, military highway, nathaniel greene parkway...not saying these are great names just a way to get rid of these d@#$ green shields and give NC cities more character.

Does anyone else have ideas for names of stretches of "green" designated highways I would be interested to see them.

[Jerseyman4]

^From experience, im suprised how the I-95/Business 95 setup in Fayetteville has not confused the majority of motorists. People just keep going straight on I-95 and dont exit off onto Business 95. Cheers to the clueless NY/NJ motorists

[krazeeboi]

I think the stretch of old 85 from new 85 to new 85 should be 385.

I-385 already exists in Greenville, SC.

[krazeeboi]

I don't always buy the urbanist argument that all "downtown freeways" divide a city. People are always going to draw boundaries, they don't need a freeway to do it for them. Unfortunately freeways are often stereotyped--and if one is bad, then they all are bad, etc.

If I-77 and I-277 in Charlotte had never been built near Uptown, I guarantee there would still be a distinct transition upon entering "Uptown", though the boundary might be in a different location and/or blurred slightly more than it is today.

You're right; there will always be some sort of dividing line, whether it's the train tracks or what have you. But not only have downtown interstates divided cities, they also destroyed entire neighborhoods. Surely that's not a good thing.

[otherstream]

I-385 already exists in Greenville, SC.

3di numbers are reused in different states. But a 3di which connects with an interstate on both ends should technically start with an even number rather than an odd one, so 385 and 740 wouldn't be the best options in Greensboro anyway.

I vote with the "use the US highway designations" camp on these roads, in general. Interstate "business loops" make some sense out west, when they're applied to the surface road that goes through a small town and circles back to the interstate bypass. But the way they're used in the Triad is just madness.

[Creasy336]

I think what blburton was trying to say is that the interstate could be odd 3-di spurs technically from the former I-85/I-40 splits to the mainline interstates (especially I-40) to be honest personally I would prefer to see the stretch through Greensboro renamed simply as US 29/ US 70 with I-740? starting at the split going to the airport.

[krazeeboi]

3di numbers are reused in different states.

Hmmm, I didn't know that. I've probably seen two that were alike, but just didn't pay that much attention. At any rate, you're asking for trouble with an I-385 in Greenville, South Carolina as well as one in Greensboro, North Carolina.

[blburton]

Yeah... several 3di interstates in the US repeat. There are 8 I-295s in the US. That's been talked about I see, so I will say no more.

I-385 already exists in Greenville, SC.

[NcSc74]

I am going to let NCDOT have a piece of my mind about this. Really the whole Greensboro designation fiasco looks and is backwards. I can't name another metro of a similar size which has such a haphazard numbering system.

If anyone is wondering yes I am still taxpaying resident of NC.

[suburban george3]

Hmmm, I didn't know that. I've probably seen two that were alike, but just didn't pay that much attention. At any rate, you're asking for trouble with an I-385 in Greenville, South Carolina as well as one in Greensboro, North Carolina.

Yeah... several 3di interstates in the US repeat. There are 8 I-295s in the US. That's been talked about I see, so I will say no more.

Yeah, let's not forget our repeat of Georgia's I-285 on US52 south of Winston-Salem in the near future...

[JDC]

3di numbers are reused in different states. But a 3di which connects with an interstate on both ends should technically start with an even number rather than an odd one, so 385 and 740 wouldn't be the best options in Greensboro anyway.

Not necessarily. If the three digit interstate connects to the same freeway on both ends, then yes, an even first digit is required. However, in some cases where they connect to two different freeways, that three-digit interstate is considered a "spur" (as opposed to a loop) and is designated an odd first digit.

But since only a few miles northwest of Durham I-85 and I-40 become one, 147 is essentially creating a "loop" in the western half of the Triangle, therefore I agree it should have an even number.

[Atlside]

^From experience, im suprised how the I-95/Business 95 setup in Fayetteville has not confused the majority of motorists. People just keep going straight on I-95 and dont exit off onto Business 95. Cheers to the clueless NY/NJ motorists

Take a look at the new I-74. Too bad Independence Freeway (after full conversion) will not become I-74.

[Forsyth]

Take a look at the new I-74. Too bad Independence Freeway (after full conversion) will not become I-74.

Do you know when they plan to change the 52 signs to 74?

[carynative]

Well, almost every US city that has a huge dense downtown core has an Interstate running into the hearts of them.

The only one that doesn't is Washington DC

Actually, you are wrong. I-395 cuts off from the south side of D.C. at I-495 (the Beltway) and passes the Pentagon before turning right, crossing the Potomoc and then sliding under ground. It then goes under the mall near teh Smithsonian and under a good section of downtown before resurfacing past Union Station. The main difference is that its undergound, which is still cool.

[ChiefJoJo]

Do you know when they plan to change the 52 signs to 74?

The section of existing US 52 needs to be upgraded to interstate standards before it gets the full designation from the feds. These things are very strict... The section in Winston that would be designated I-285 ( south of the loop) has a lot of geometry issues that will be expensive to fix.

Here's a link to the vision for the Triad from the state's perspective. Check out the huge network of freeways!

[Jerseyman4]

^US 421 south of the new 85 is one step below a freeway anyways (an expressway currently). All they have to do is just add interchanges/bridges to the existening at-grade intersections. Im glad the state is considering to improve 421 north of the new 85 towards Death Valley. It would be nice if there was a direct connection to US 29 but i doubt that will ever happen.

US 64 through Asheboro needs a bypass badly, Dixie Drive (locals refer this to US 64 through the city limits) during the daytime hours is very very congested.

[davidals]

This is true. But, only North Carolina and South Carolina cities followed that design mode. The rest of the states in the US took their Interstate systems into the core centers of their states. Might this be why some cities downtown grew more rapidly post rail transit?

What major cities outside of Washington in the US don't have major Interstate highways going into their downtown cores?

The "freeway revolts":

NYC and San Fran were the first - even by the early 60s it was becoming apparent what interstates would do to well-established communities, just by looking at what happened in the South Bronx after I-95 was built through. Plans were for I-78 to cross lower Manhattan, and then slice across Brooklyn to JFK; 495 was to cross midtown.

San Fran was to have a series of stacked freeways and "cut-and-cover" (dig a hole, build the freeway, then cover the tunnel) loops running through the city.

These plans were abhorrent to most residents; by the early 70s, major in-town or center city freeway projects has been cancelled in Atlanta (I-420, I-485), Memphis (I-40 through), New Orleans (I-410, French Quarter Frwy), Washington (I-95 through, I-66 through, I-266, I-695, I-595, Georgetown Frwy), Baltimore (I-70), Philadelphia (I-276, Schuylkill Frwy, US 1 Frwy), NYC (I-78, I-95, several spurs for both through Brooklyn, Queens and Staten Island), Hartford (I-484), Boston (I-95 through, I-695), St Louis (I-455/Downtown Beltway), Chicago (I-494), Indianapolis (I-69 through to downtown), Portland Or (I-305), and there were others - each of these would have started, ended, run through, or looped a center city.

I think center city freeways are incredibly destructive - in some cultural and social ways, certain cities will never recover from the loss of historical (usually African-American) neighborhoods. That's the kind of loss that doesn't show in statistics, except when cut-off neighborhoods sink into isolation and crime rates spike in places where it hadn't been an out of control problem before, but you can see it when you look at what vital historic communities contribute in many cities, and compare that to the Durham Frwy (built on top of the old Hayti neighborhood), or the John Belk Frwy in Charlotte (built on top of Brooklyn, the razing of which was not long premeditated before it actually happened).

The cities mentioned above with cancelled interstates running through them do have plenty of other problems, and many of those problems can be found close to where they were able to blast a freeway through (S.E. Washington DC, for example). But some of those cities also have cultural and social developments that are intricate, intact, rooted for decades, and at levels of advancement any number of freeway-crossed boomtowns would find extremely enviable.

[Jerseyman4]

^The proposed and partially built I-70/I-170 inside the Baltimore beltway destroyed many communities in the city of Baltimore and they didnt even finish the highway but just left the highway right-of-way and highway itself abanded! So what your saying, i agree for the most part on the impacts of freeway construction through cities involving demolition because there are areas of DC that are bad that dont even have a freeway nearby.