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Abandoned Cities


monsoon

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I just read a couple of weeks ago in the Toledo Blade that the city of Toledo's population had dropped below 300,000 down to 280,000. Every major city in Ohio has lost population in the past 5 years. Dayton is down to 132,000! Cincinatti is down in the 200's! The suburbs of these cities are growing somewhat but nothing compared to the population losses in the cities. But I do believe that Ohio has never recovered from the recession of several years ago. But I also noticed that Atlanta has lost city population, Miami is flat, Ft. Lauderdale has lost a couple thousand, Tampa has gained only 8,000. I live in Orlando and we have a very small city limits but the city population has continued to increase rapidly. In 2000 we were 180,000 and in 2005 we are up to 220,000. There has been no annexation of the suburbs, so maybe this is one truly growing city. Phoenix may be another. So while most cities populations remain flat or losing, there are still some cities that are growing.

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The census estimates say that between 2000 and 2005 it grew 2.7%, from 711,470 to 730,657.

Decent numbers for a midwestern city.

Columbus is the Austin of the Midwest, it doesn't get enough credit.

Here are a few interesting core cities with populations on the decline:

2005 2000 1990

St Louis 344,362 348,189 396,685

Birmingham 231,483 242,820 265,968

Detroit 886,671 951,270 1,027,974

Cleveland 452,208 478,403 505,616

Jackson MS 177,977 184,256 196,637

Baltimore 635,815 651,154 736,014

Cincinnati 308,728 331,285 364,040

Pittsburgh 316,718 334,563 369,879

Milwaukee 578,887 596,974 628,088

Richmond 193,777 197,790 203,056

New Orleans 454,863 484,674 496,938

Norfolk 231,954 234,403 261,229

Philly 1,463,281 1,517,550 1,585,577

Hartford 124,397 121,578 139,739

Buffalo 279,745 292,648 328,123

Savannah 128,453 131,510 137,560

Practically no mid-major or larger cities in the West, Southwest, Texas or Florida lost population.

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This conversation has drifted off to comparing population estimates and there is nothing new to that which we haven't seen before. Please get back onto the topic of abandoned cities or abandoned neighborhoods.

It's relevant to see a list of which cities it is occurring in and at what rate. It's completely on topic.

Of course, as a lot of posters have said it can be deceptive. Cities like St Louis or Detroit that are tightly bound by inner ring suburbs have nowhere to grow but up. As family size shrinks it means fewer residents per house or multifamily unit. Still, the regional trend is interesting - it is largely in the rust belt of the Northeast and Midwest and in some older mid-sized Southern cities. Western and Southwestern cities have more undeveloped land to make up for it and cities in Florida are using condo towers to grow upward. The trend probably means less than is made of it, sure, but there is still flight out of inner cities for a variety of reasons.

This kind of topic seems like one of the most appropriate for this board, doesn't it? Reversing this phenomenon and increasing core density is what most of us would like to see.

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This conversation has drifted off to comparing population estimates and there is nothing new to that which we haven't seen before. Please get back onto the topic of abandoned cities or abandoned neighborhoods.

I agree, this discussion has shifted to mainly distressed cities in the Rust Belt and pop. comparisons.

It's relevant to see a list of which cities it is occurring in and at what rate. It's completely on topic.

I think a separate thread on shrinking or distressed cities would have suited most of the conversation better. The original thread was on "Abandoned Cities", which means NO ONE lives there anymore. A city that had 400K in 1990 and 350K in 2000 does not qualify as abandoned and has quite aways to go to meet that designation.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Columbus is the Austin of the Midwest, it doesn't get enough credit.

Here are a few interesting core cities with populations on the decline:

2005 2000 1990

St Louis 344,362 348,189 396,685

Birmingham 231,483 242,820 265,968

Detroit 886,671 951,270 1,027,974

Cleveland 452,208 478,403 505,616

Jackson MS 177,977 184,256 196,637

Baltimore 635,815 651,154 736,014

Cincinnati 308,728 331,285 364,040

Pittsburgh 316,718 334,563 369,879

Milwaukee 578,887 596,974 628,088

Richmond 193,777 197,790 203,056

New Orleans 454,863 484,674 496,938

Norfolk 231,954 234,403 261,229

Philly 1,463,281 1,517,550 1,585,577

Hartford 124,397 121,578 139,739

Buffalo 279,745 292,648 328,123

Savannah 128,453 131,510 137,560

Practically no mid-major or larger cities in the West, Southwest, Texas or Florida lost population.

In most cases, this is simply because the city limits of the Eastern cities were fixed in the1800's and are full. As the cities become more affluent, the number of people per home goes down. Cities in the West are not surrounded by other cities and keep moving their city limits out to include new residents. Metro areas in the East are growing, but the old core "cities" shown here are surrounded and cannot take in the booming suburbs like the West cities still can.

St. Louis City, for instance, has had locked city limits since the 1800's and now represents only about 1/10th of the St. Louis metro area population. So don't read too much into "decline" with these numbers.

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just a quick revisiting of the discussion of detroit...I spent a few concentrated days there last fall. arrived at the hotel, asked the doorman where to get some food. he looked up the street, up the other street, down the street, and shrugged. "There's a Hard Rock Cafe a few blocks down, and uh..."

Although the middle class housing depicted in previous posts definitely exists and is definitely within the city limits, the actual downtown area with big tall buildings and whatnot is definitely an urban ghost town. yes, it's getting better. the new stadium and all of that jazz is really pulling things along. but phew, you see that old train station that is just beaten and battered and broken and you just wonder how folks could abandon such a structure.

an interesting thing that I came upon totally unaware is the heidelberg project. we were on a big city ride, going through some bland poor neighborhoods all grey and sad, and turned the corner to see an old grey 4 square...covered in stuffed animals. large, small, there was a gigantic rabbit hanging from the roof. the next house had gigantic polka dots painted on it and upright vacuum cleaners painted nuclear colors stood in rows in the front yard like rows of corn. it just went on and on, each house with a different ridiculous paint scheme or decoration, some of them with families that clearly lived inside hanging out on the porch etc.

http://www.heidelberg.org/

this dude decided that the only way to get the drug dealers which always came back to this particular hood to leave would be decorating a little differently. sure enough, they left and never came back.

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the actual downtown area with big tall buildings and whatnot is definitely an urban ghost town.

Detroit's downtown isn't the nicest or most happening in the country, but it is far from being a ghost town, at least in terms of the images you are instilling in people when you say "ghost town". Also, the train station isn't even in downtown. It's several miles away in Corktown. (which otherwise is a very nice neighborhood.)

There are more than a couple abandoned skyscrapers in downtown Detroit (the Book-Cadillac Hotel, Broderick Tower, the Fort-Shelby Hotel, the United Artists Building, and the David Whitney Building) however, the Book-Cadillac is currently being renovated into a Westin Hotel, the Broderick Tower is being renovated into condos, and the Fort-Shebly Hotel is being renovated into a Doubletree Hotel. The Lafayette Building (which is another downtown dinosaur) is being renovated into lofts and there are several other loft conversions occuring in the area.

Here are a few pics of Detroit's supposed "ghost town" of a downtown:

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Detroit's downtown isn't the nicest or most happening in the country, but it is far from being a ghost town, at least in terms of the images you are instilling in people when you say "ghost town". Also, the train station isn't even in downtown. It's several miles away in Corktown. (which otherwise is a very nice neighborhood.)

There are more than a couple abandoned skyscrapers in downtown Detroit (the Book-Cadillac Hotel, Broderick Tower, the Fort-Shelby Hotel, the United Artists Building, and the David Whitney Building) however, the Book-Cadillac is currently being renovated into a Westin Hotel, the Broderick Tower is being renovated into condos, and the Fort-Shebly Hotel is being renovated into a Doubletree Hotel. The Lafayette Building (which is another downtown dinosaur) is being renovated into lofts and there are several other loft conversions occuring in the area.

Here are a few pics of Detroit's supposed "ghost town" of a downtown:

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No, it is not totally dead. But it is true that a few blocks in Greektown and the casino are the only thing happening there. The Borders and Hard Rock are at least there now. But hell, even Louisville has those downtown. For a major city, its downtown is sad. All those abandoned art decos are depressing. However, I will never hate on Detroit. I just love the city and I think it has a chance to come back, but the MENTALITY has to change there.

Here in Louisville, the mentality has changed. We went from being a decaying midwestern industrial town to a booming southern metropolis, and a lot has to do with renovations downtown and a change of attitude. Every in town neighborhood is seeing infill, with some hoods seeing weekly announcements quite literally.

Also, for a city Detroit's size, it really seems to be missing that funky big city neighborhood where all the young professionals live. Where is the Lincoln Park? Soho? Georgetown? There is nothing even as vibrant as the Highlands here in Louisville. I think that is why people go to Detroit and get dissappointed. Its like it could be so great, why are people so scared of the city!???

Hudinka, you have a very good attitude, but most of the people in metro Detroit i encountered did not!

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  • 1 month later...
just a quick revisiting of the discussion of detroit...I spent a few concentrated days there last fall. arrived at the hotel, asked the doorman where to get some food. he looked up the street, up the other street, down the street, and shrugged. "There's a Hard Rock Cafe a few blocks down, and uh..."

Although the middle class housing depicted in previous posts definitely exists and is definitely within the city limits, the actual downtown area with big tall buildings and whatnot is definitely an urban ghost town. yes, it's getting better. the new stadium and all of that jazz is really pulling things along. but phew, you see that old train station that is just beaten and battered and broken and you just wonder how folks could abandon such a structure.

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Most downtowns in the U.S. are usually devoid of streetlife after five and on weekends, and Detroit is no exception. However, between the hours of 9 and 5 and during special events (which happen all the time in the summer) you'll find thousands of people downtown. The CBD has a daytime population of well over 70,000 but the overnight population is only about 7,000 so its no surprise to see a lot less people walking around after the workday is over.

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That's what's so exciting about Minneapolis having 30,000 people living downtown again. I was in downtown 2 Novembers ago at about 7pm and it was packed. The streets were busy, the traffic was bad... it was a really cool experience. It was a Friday night, if that helps at all.. people were coming downtown to go to the theaters, clubs, restaurants... it was fun.

The deadest time in Minneapolis is definitely Saturday morning. I've been there then too.. it just doesn't have a good feeling.

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I'm was referring specifically to the CBD of Detroit (about 1 sq. mi. of mostly office buildings), not the greater Downtown area which is more comparable to what Minneapolis calls "downtown". In an apples to apples comparison the Greater Downtown area (including Downtown, Midtown, and New Center) also has about 30,000.

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That's what's so exciting about Minneapolis having 30,000 people living downtown again. I was in downtown 2 Novembers ago at about 7pm and it was packed. The streets were busy, the traffic was bad... it was a really cool experience. It was a Friday night, if that helps at all.. people were coming downtown to go to the theaters, clubs, restaurants... it was fun.
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