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Snowguy716

God wants evangelicals to be rich?

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http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/...1532999,00.html

According to this article, God wants his children to be prosperous. He doesn't want his followers to be "broke and ugly just waiting to get to heaven." It is even said that "some churches even do significant charity."

Most of this is from the United Pentacostal Church: A Church that believes that if you're not seizuring and mumbling mumbo jumbo you're on a path to hell. They also believe that if Jesus were around today, he'd be all for tax cuts, corporate welfare, and burning non-believers at the stake.

I really enjoy being able to hear both sides of a story and making a conclusion from both sides, but so many evangelical Christians have become nothing more than materialistic, quick-to-judge, hateful hypocrites. I debated quite a lot with an evangelical friend.. he convinced me that the economy doesn't matter, and also tried to convince me that being rich was a sign of God's approval. Right, I'm sure the Saudi princes are just bathing in God's approval.... but he wouldn't hear any of that. We've got a war to fight.

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LOL.

It's amazing how much they twist what they say they believe in. People must need something to follow for some reason or another.

I'll make no qualms about it, I'm individualistic, materialistic, a workaholic, agnostic....

Tax cuts, no corporate welfare, less social welfare, bring it on.

but I don't go and try to claim otherwise.

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I'm no Christian, but don't they have a teaching that goes along the lines of "blessed are the poor..."?

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LOL.

It's amazing how much they twist what they say they believe in. People must need something to follow for some reason or another.

I'll make no qualms about it, I'm individualistic, materialistic, a workaholic, agnostic....

Tax cuts, no corporate welfare, less social welfare, bring it on.

but I don't go and try to claim otherwise.

Hey... would you look at that. A conservative that doesn't apologize, but doesn't make up lame excuses to justify it either. I respect that. Of course, you're still an evil conservative :P

The teachings in the Bible regarding social justice and welfare are quite clear.

Psalm 12:5

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There's also this:

Matthew 19:23-24

23Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

I guess Jesus didn't know what he was talking about....

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Weren't the Bakkers the first famous folks to say god likes his followers to have large bank accounts?

So many baptists I used to debate with believed that tithing to the church would eventually make them wealthy. It always sounded like a warped pyramid scheme to me-lol

If god shines his love on people through money, here is a list of some righteous folks:

Saddam Hussein---more palaces than you could count

Ferdinand and Emelda Marcos---more golf courses and shoes than you could count

Jerry Falwell--reportedly lives in a palacial home, owns jets

Oral Roberts---remember the $$$ prayer tower etc

Rod Parcely---dresses like he came straight from Milan

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Weren't the Bakkers the first famous folks to say god likes his followers to have large bank accounts?

So many baptists I used to debate with believed that tithing to the church would eventually make them wealthy. It always sounded like a warped pyramid scheme to me-lol

If god shines his love on people through money, here is a list of some righteous folks:

Saddam Hussein---more palaces than you could count

Ferdinand and Emelda Marcos---more golf courses and shoes than you could count

Jerry Falwell--reportedly lives in a palacial home, owns jets

Oral Roberts---remember the $$$ prayer tower etc

Rod Parcely---dresses like he came straight from Milan

To be fair, Saddam Hussein did not gain weath via the guise of religion. He did it through stealing and killing. Iraq was a secular nation until we stepped in.

As a side note, I can't help but giggle everytime I see "Oral Roberts" written down somewhere. Sounds like someone who would hang out at a dirty book store.

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Most of this is from the United Pentacostal Church: A Church that believes that if you're not seizuring and mumbling mumbo jumbo you're on a path to hell. They also believe that if Jesus were around today, he'd be all for tax cuts, corporate welfare, and burning non-believers at the stake.

As a Pentecostal myself, I know that most of this (or even a lot of it) is NOT coming from the United Pentecostal Church which tends to preach against excess and gaudiness (practically none of their women wear makeup or jewelry, for example). Most of this "prosperity gospel" preaching is characteristic of what has been dubbed the "Word of Faith" movement, which is a sect within the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement. However, as the article rightfully states, it has moved beyond that now to more mainstream denominations.

I think this represents a drifting to the other social extreme, as the humble beginnings of the Pentecostal movement in this nation were among the less well-to-do in society. They were largely characterized by their modesty in physical appearance and storefront churches. It is really only relatively recently that the typical demographic of the average Pentecostal/Charismatic church has broadened beyond the poor and uneducated to now include business owners, lawyers, college professors, etc. So now there has been a shift in the paradigm, whereas being poor used signify being pious. Now it's tending towards the opposite. Sooner or later it will balance out on a larger scale.

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If god shines his love on people through money, here is a list of some righteous folks:

Saddam Hussein---more palaces than you could count

Ferdinand and Emelda Marcos---more golf courses and shoes than you could count

Jerry Falwell--reportedly lives in a palacial home, owns jets

Oral Roberts---remember the $$$ prayer tower etc

Rod Parcely---dresses like he came straight from Milan

Don't forget multi-millionaire Osama bin Laden.

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This same topic always ticks me off about Baptist preachers. I actually know one quite well, and while he's a good preacher, he's very VERY wealthy and I don't understand that. I can't name a Baptist preacher around here he's not wealthier than at least 75% of his congregation. It seems the black Baptist churches around here are the same way, so it's not just the white ones. The only ones I can think of around here that do NOT seem that way are the Korean and Hispanic Baptist churches.

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Some of my family go to a Baptist church (including my grandparents). The church is unaffiliated, except for strong ties with the pastor's mentor in Chicago (where he's from).

He does have fundamental Christian beliefs of being born again and being baptized as an adult. In his adult Sunday school classes, he goes through different books of the Bible verse by verse and interprets them. He sticks closely to the word, but understands huge discrepencies, so he researches the greek and latin to clear those up.

He never preaches about giving to the church, because, as he says, it detracts from his message of the gospel. When he must be gone, he has guest speakers. The congregation has been 'encouraged' to give more by these pastors as a favor to the pastor, who won't say a thing.

He preaches regularly in nursing homes and jails.. even the state prison in St. Cloud... it's his passion: Reaching those whom others would simply let rot.

It gives me reason to believe that not all evangelicals are hateful.. but so many in the congregation are hateful, judgmental, and greedy despite what the pastor says about those things.

I don't agree with the pastor on many things, especially having to do with interpretations of the Bible, but I respect him for remaining indepedent. And no, he doesn't want to be rich... he wants to change the world as best he can (He leads groups to India to do charity work and goes to Israel to do research).

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At the very moment Jerry Falwell was lambasting the Bakkers for being too materialistic and corrupt, he was living in a palacial home himself! And Pat Robertson, too.

Why on earth should a preacher be making over $100,000 a year?????

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Remember, many pastors have other business ventures outside of their churches. Some pastors also have congregations the size of a small town. Salaries tend to be scrutinized much more carefully in these larger churches, often having to be approved by a board of trustees. As long as it goes that route, I'm fine with it. I believe that every churchgoer should have some knowledge of how his/her pastor is being compensated.

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Remember, many pastors have other business ventures outside of their churches. Some pastors also have congregations the size of a small town. Salaries tend to be scrutinized much more carefully in these larger churches, often having to be approved by a board of trustees. As long as it goes that route, I'm fine with it. I believe that every churchgoer should have some knowledge of how his/her pastor is being compensated.

I agree with that to a point. While I realize many pastors' salaries have to be approved, I wonder why they allow it to be set so high. If I were a churchgoer, I wouldn't want my pastor to be extremely poor, but why must he be wealthier than everyone else? I think it's crazy.

For the record, the pastor I know well has nothing other than his church. He has a small retirement outside of that, but the rest comes from the church. They pay him crazy money, and somehow they're okay with that.

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There's definitely a fine line between a pastor living comfortably and living exhorbitantly. While I certainly have a problem with the latter as a matter of principle, what really matters is that the church doesn't have a problem with it.

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The question really is, should these pastors hugh incomes be based on the fact that most churches operate tax free?

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Yes, the "Prosperity Theology" is certainly not limited to Pentecostal churches around the nation. In fact, most Pentecostal churches preach a theology drastically different from that. Most churches preaching this theology are nondenominational churches---most of these churches tend to follow a quasi-Baptist approach to faith and sacraments while picking and choosing what they like from other aspects of the Baptist theology. Joel Osteen with his massive church in Houston is the perfect example of this new flawed theology. Most Baptist churches that I've been to do not preach this new theology, but instead focus on helping the poor and leading a good Christian life; same with Methodists. The Presbyterians used to preach a theology somewhat similar to prosperity theology but they've moved from that in modern years. And of course my "base" churches, the RCC and Episcopal Church, are well known in their care of the poor and downtrodden (at present I'm Catholic but can't seem to choose between the two). Also, I'm not Pentecostal, but it seems unfair to make fun of the way someone worships God.

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metro brings up a good point about taxes and churches.

Back when Jerry Falwell started the Moral Majority and was advocating stripping gays of as many rights as possible, there was a popular bumpersticker GAYS PAY TAXES. CHURCHES DON'T.

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a topic similar to this would be Christian Universities. I know it's not always the case, but it is a lot.

The school i went to for my freshman year cost over $20,000 (that was in the 90s) for a year. Sure, they're not state funded... but 20-plus grand a year?!?!?! the professors there made as much (or less) as high school teachers, the facilities weren't great (except for the tajmahal of a new gym they were building... which was paid for by an alumni)... but honestly, where was that money going? The President of the University was really REALLY well off. And the faculy made how much again?

Even after alumni donations...

At another Christian university in Ohio that a friend went to, the board bought their president a brand new Jaguar... just because.

misuse of funds?

I grew up a Christian, and althoguh i am a lot more open minded and liberal than i was back then, i still consider myself one... and stuff like this relaly pisses me off. People in power find it easy to abuse... and if they have some verse in the bible to justify it, who's going to say they're wrong (besides people like us... who obviouly don't know what we're talking about)?

sucks.

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I had a job in a church in the north end of Hartford the other day. Just so you know, the north end of Hartford is one of the poorer areas of Hartford, the street in particular is one of the worst in the city. It was what I call a "Joe's Bar and Church", one of the many little churches that pop up in the middle of the ghetto that aren't a specific denomination to the naked eye. We had to wait for the pastor to arrive, and he did: in his brand new Mercedes. He was dressed immaculately, a sharp suit, gold cuff links, very snappy. He was in a bad attitude, as if offended to have to be there and let us into HIS office to do phone work. As he left, we asked the girl there what he did for a regular job, and she said "preach". To me, that guy is what is wrong with some churches, he was fleecing the flock, that neighborhood is one of the poorest in the State, yet this guy can get them to give their crumbs enough for his Mercedes etc.

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The tuition at my University once you factor in fees, room, board, and books, is about $31,000/year and that's not the most expensive.

I was fortunate enough to be awarded a $10,000/yr. presidential scholarship for good grades in high school plus other scholarships for needy families and grants/subsidized loans. My family still ends up paying about $2,500/yr out of pocket, and it has been a sacrifice from my family to get here.

My University is a catholic, all male institution (before you make any assumptions, our academic program is completely integrated with the all female catholic college down the road.)

Our professors make a middle class income, and our president is a monk, who makes a minimal salary, all of which goes to the monastary.

There are a myriad of programs and services on campus that receive funding, including research, and several different institutes that promote theological study. One such project, though funded mostly through donations, is the St. John's Bible project, which will be the first illuminated, completely hand-written Bible since the time of Gutenberg.

But that's the difference between a well established Catholic institution that encourages diversity and life-long learning and a university like Bob Jones that is threatened to have tax exempt status removed because of a policy banning interracial dating.

The monks at Saint John's encourage a broad translation of the Bible in the context of the time and culture in which it was written. When it says God created the earth in 6 days, does it mean 6 24 hour days? No.

Evangelical Christians love to find the parts of the Bible that suits their agenda.. but one must keep in mind that the same Bible that was used to justify slavery and oppression of women was held reverently by the likes of Martin Luther King, Jr. and Elizabeth Cady Stanton and Susan B. Anthony to shine the true light of Christianity on our country: Equality for all.

As Al Franken (future senator from Minnesota) so eloquently states: "If you remove all the passages in the Bible saying to help the poor, you have a nice little box to carry Rush Limbaugh's drugs in." :)

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As Al Franken (future senator from Minnesota) so eloquently states: "If you remove all the passages in the Bible saying to help the poor, you have a nice little box to carry Rush Limbaugh's drugs in." :)

dios mio! ain't that the truth.

look, god's a good entity, right? he wants you to be happy... he wants you spread happiness. if your rich and greedy and your being a beotch... your probably going to hell. in turn, if your poor and capable and angry and always expecting (or being a beotch)... well, your probably going to hell, too. i do think one is worse than the other, but, it matters not.

my grandma always said, "the golden rule destroys the golden mule".

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