Capitol Broadcasting Withdraws Support of Art Project

[carynative]

Major Dissapointment

WRAL

[bsutton1]

Thanks alot Russell Allen and City Counsel A-Holes

[uptownliving]

I am a big fan of Plensas work in Milliniiem Park in Chicago...but from the renderings I have seen of what he wanted to do in Raleigh...I was not impressed. Personally I think Raleigh deserves better..I don't care if its from Plensa or someone else...Raleigh deserves something better.

[drewpiece]

I don't know what you think would be better. I highly doubt Raleigh would be able to agree on anything anyway.

[RaleighLover]

After this, we'll probably get a little dinky ass fountain or they'll stick Sir Walter there. Big whoop.

[DanRNC]

How about a statue of Chuck Amato?

[RaleighLover]

I just shot off nasty e-mails to Mayor Meeker, the City Council and Russell Allen.

[Justin6882]

I am a big fan of Plensas work in Milliniiem Park in Chicago...but from the renderings I have seen of what he wanted to do in Raleigh...I was not impressed. Personally I think Raleigh deserves better..I don't care if its from Plensa or someone else...Raleigh deserves something better.

Please, "based on renderings" blah blah, thats why the chandeliers didn't make it...based on "renderings". We all know things rarely come out like the renderings. I went to the mock up and saw the miniature light setup on display, and it is mesmerizing. Like I said in the other thread, I'm glad Goodmon withdrew the money - I would too if I were him.

[DanRNC]

Actually I am kind of glad they pulled this project as on my last trip downtown I noticed vagrants made up a large population of the folks downtown. This fountain would only serve to promote outdoor bathing and the grassy area would make a nice place for a squatter encampment.

[acarelesswhisper]

I'm so glad Goodmon withdrew it. I"m glad Plensa withdrew it. This is a major **** you to Raleigh. Welcome the death of Fayetteville Street. I'm sure this will p*ss people off on this forum but you mark my words. There is no reason to go to F Street now. Watch. Time will tell. Vagrants are filling in. Hallelujah.

Raleigh's City Council sucks major ***.

[DanRNC]

Wheeler basically implied the people of Raleigh are a bunch a unsophisticated dolts who can't grasp any major conceptual idea. He said Raleigh pretty much wants a boring dull statue (que Sir Walter Raleigh). The vagrants are already filling in-its great for them, nice benches to sprawl out on. The only bad thing for them is there is no one to panhandle off of except for the fogies rolling out of the Sir Walter Wally Hotel on their rascal scooters.

[MR-2]

Well, as long as we get some function out of this decision, I won't make too much of a deal out of it. If they extend Fayetteville street uninterrupted to the PEC, that will have some utility benefits for the street, even if it doesn't have any art on it.

[romec]

Why is everyone so anti-council?

Does no one else remember Downtown Raleigh before the 5 in 5 initiative? Before we had HQ's relocating, and a billion of dollars of investment? How about 10 years ago?

This is one project and Donwtown Raleigh's success is not going to depend on 1 project. (And if the fate of our city hinges on 1 project, I hope its a 200 million dollar convention center and not a 4 million dollar fountain with lights) Honestly, I wanted this project to happen, but I accept that the city did bring up some pretty good points.

Keep in mind that the city is starting to develop a history of paying money to undo mistakes. Remember the 10 million we are paying to undo the pedestrian mall. Remember the millions we spent in the early 90's to "renovate" a civic center that has now been razed. That said the city better be pretty sure that it wants to put a multi million dollar piece of art in the center of a street.

Also remember the city ***does*** have a budget. I'll be perfectly honest if it comes down to paying a 2 million dollar overage on the Plensa piece or beautifying Wilmington street, I'd have to think long and hard about it. The Plensa piece ***could*** become a draw for downtown Raleigh, or it could become another Light + Time Tower but parked in the middle of Fayetteville Street. Personally, I think it could be a draw and I really like the design. I also understand how it might be a bad idea to put a major draw in the middle of "main street".

Look the council isn't perfect, but it's just annoying to see everyone ready to railroad them. Try to have a memory longer than 8 months, How many of you would be on this website talking about urban issues in Downtown Raleigh without the phenomenal growth that IS going on downtown?

[drewpiece]

They should put a statue of a vagrant there.

[MR-2]

They should put a statue of a vagrant there.

[DurhamDivaInRaleigh]

Slightly off-topic...I JUST figured out what the Light+Time tower was. I heard people talking about it, and had no clue what this piece of "artwork" was on Capital Blvd.

There was a picture of it in the paper today, and I realized I'd seen it 100+ times. I swear I thought that thing was a piece of equipment, like a solar panel or something--not artwork.

[ncwebguy]

For the "vagrants are the majority in downtown Raleigh" set:

- when was the last time you went -- time of day, day of week, date/month/year? Was there still a pedestrian mall in place?

- did you count the number of vagrants and non-vagrants, or did you seek out vagrants and ignore everyone else?

- did you notice any squatter encampments in Moore or Nash square?

- was there any bathing going on in the fountain in front of City Hall? The water feature near Raleigh Memorial Auditorium?

Since there is nothing to do on F Street, has someone infromed the businesses already in place or getting ready to open along and near F Street that they no longer exist?

When did we get in the business of letting people with money decide what we can do with public space?

If I paid $5 million for a $7.5 million "middle finger to Raleigh" artwork, do I get to put it wherever I want, irreguardless of what the city wants? It will require water, electricity, and maintenance that I won't pay for. I demand difficult to maintain black granite roads around it, otherwise you are gutting my project. I'm paying 2/3rds the cost, so someone else should pay the rest, not me. If I don't get what I want, then I'm getting out of the patron of the arts business.

The "fountains" on the old mall demonstrate how horrible the city is at maintaing public art that uses electricty and/or water. The Plensa piece would look great for the first few years, but I don't know if stand up to the test of time. The Capitol Building and Raleigh Memorial Auditorium are not colorful, kinetic, etc., but have never gone out of style. With the sidewalk cafe situation, the city has demonstrated an effort to be flexible in balancing public space with private use, as long as it is mutually beneficial.

A lot of art lovers here are overestimiating the number of return visits the Plensa piece would generate. Like Dix campus, just being there is not enough for people to go. Moore Square gets a lot more use than Nash Square because of the concerts and other events like Artsplosure programmed there. Nash Square has lights in the trees, but does anyone go there to gather? Unless it is for some cermony at the memorials, or the Old Reliable road race, no. Does anyone go to Jacksonville (a better comparison than Chicago) for their Plensa installation? No.

[reed]

For the "vagrants are the majority in downtown Raleigh" set:

- when was the last time you went -- time of day, day of week, date/month/year? Was there still a pedestrian mall in place?

- did you count the number of vagrants and non-vagrants, or did you seek out vagrants and ignore everyone else?

- did you notice any squatter encampments in Moore or Nash square?

- was there any bathing going on in the fountain in front of City Hall? The water feature near Raleigh Memorial Auditorium?

Yeah, where are all these vagrants? I live a couple of blocks away from F Street, jog through it every morning, and pass by it a few evenings a week when going out for a drink or a bite to eat. And, I just don't see these hordes of homeless people that keep getting mentioned.

[Transplant]

If I paid $5 million for a $7.5 million "middle finger to Raleigh" artwork, do I get to put it wherever I want, irreguardless of what the city wants? It will require water, electricity, and maintenance that I won't pay for. I demand difficult to maintain black granite roads around it, otherwise you are gutting my project. I'm paying 2/3rds the cost, so someone else should pay the rest, not me. If I don't get what I want, then I'm getting out of the patron of the arts business.

Its true that you would be limited by what you'd put in. However from the N & O Article:

All along, Plensa's idea was to create a gathering place -- not a piece of art, said Larry Wheeler, director of the N.C. Museum of Art, who with Meeker worked on the project from its early stages

It would appear that the Art was never a surprise. In fact, it would seem that it was something that had been discussed. Of course we'll never know to what level these discussions occured. I assume (maybe incorrectly) that the location was designated by the City in some form. Should he 'get out of the patron business'? Well, I assume he feels burned, and I don't fault him for that. If I was asked to sponser something in a certain location, only to see the location later moved, I'd be peeved too.

The more i think about it, the less I care. Like ncwebguy said, its not drawing people downtown more than once. We have great things go on all over, we'll have to take the bad with the good.

For the "vagrants are the majority in downtown Raleigh" set:

- when was the last time you went -- time of day, day of week, date/month/year? Was there still a pedestrian mall in place?

- did you count the number of vagrants and non-vagrants, or did you seek out vagrants and ignore everyone else?

- did you notice any squatter encampments in Moore or Nash square?

- was there any bathing going on in the fountain in front of City Hall? The water feature near Raleigh Memorial Auditorium?

I've ever seen 'vagarants' downtown spuratically. A few times in Moore Square. A few times walking up F-St while under construction. And a few times in front of 42nd St. Oyster Bar. I will say these times have been the extreme minority. To say that 'vagarants are the majority' is sad, there are no more here than anywhere else.

Smile folks. More art will come in time. I'd really love to see a "Red Wolf Ramble" to happen again.

Maybe something like that could fund a piece of art, something (or somethings) around town.

[dmccall]

Just for the record; I was on Fayetteville Street 2 Tuesdays ago at 5:30pm. I encountered roughly 16 people within one block and 6 of them were vagrants. I was asked for money right in front of WTVD's studios. I did the same thing at North Hills the next night and nobody asked me for money. What do you think that Joe-nonUP-guy will do when offered a choice between going to a restaurant on Fayetteville St or a comparable one at North Hills?

I think that the next artistic proposal ought to be a giant naked lesbian sex scene with full-on audio and other quality sensory output. Down the street we put a sculpture of a giant heroin addict shooting up and somewhere else we put up a giant lynch mob tribute....THEN when the masses and City Council refuse to approve, we back off and say "Oh, how about a few lights a a row a trees, then?" or "how about a few low level colorful lights. Would that be better?"

[ncwebguy]

Moore Square has its fair share of vagrants because it is sandwiched between the bus station that provides transportation for people without a car and The Salvation Army's soup kitchen on the far edge of the park.

On the new, open F Street, the TV viewing provided by WTVD has overtaken the Bail Bonds place on Martin Street between Wilmington and Blount as the "entertainment hangout." Do the hot dog stands count as vagrants since they want my money? I've been approached for money just about everywhere, but that has more to do with me walking around downtown a lot more than the number of panhandelers. There were a *lot* more vagrants when the pedestrian mall was in place because the planters provided ample sitting/lying space.

If the city wants art, they can "strongly encourage" buisnesses and buildings that front F Street (and elsewhere) to display art instead of a soulles face. There already is some left over from Raleigh Wide Open in the "old" Wachovia entrance, One Exchange Plaza, the old McCroys building, etc. Artwork could be rotated or permanent, encouraging repeat visits and would not disrupt the vista or other public space. The plaza in front of the Wake County Courthouse, Hannover Square, and the two on the east side of the 200 block of F Street could display larger pieces.

I prefer the "art all over" created by the Red Wolf Ramble more than "art locked into discreet places." A "Where in Raleigh is Sir Walter?" exhibit with him in all kinds of poses and outfits could be fun and lead up to the return of the Big Guy to The Street.

I know City Square was to give the city a "gathering place", but we already have several that are underutilized or unused -- Hillsborough Street (for NC State celebrations), Glenwood South, Bicentennial Plaza/Capitol Square, Nash Sqaure, Moore Square, Litchin Plaza, the State Government Mall, etc. Other than Hillsborough Street, all of these are for people only and not cars.

Downtown's facade grant generated the new, brighter Mecca sign, but could also lead to other projects. It is too *early* praise or condem DT Raleigh, but we can still dream (and spit).

[cinco]

Actually I am kind of glad they pulled this project as on my last trip downtown I noticed vagrants made up a large population of the folks downtown. This fountain would only serve to promote outdoor bathing and the grassy area would make a nice place for a squatter encampment.

that is a terribly lame reason for wanting this project scrapped...

the leaders of raleigh made a mistake @ letting this slip away. it seems to me that whatever project takes the place of this one - it will not have the caliber of artist. that doesn't mean it won't be a great piece of art... but, as for an already established artist - i imagine they will think twice about working with the city @ this juncture. it's sad to see a promising city progress in many areas, then throw a wrench in the way it's percieved. at least to some.

[Beth Y]

Smile folks. More art will come in time. I'd really love to see a "Red Wolf Ramble" to happen again.

Maybe something like that could fund a piece of art, something (or somethings) around town.

The first piece being paid for with Red Wolf Ramble money is being dedicated on Saturday morning.

See it here: www.mikeroig.com

Here is a thread on it:http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=30418

[Jones_]

with gaps in the evolving urban fabric of renovated and new buildings, and different ideas of both where downtown is and where it should be going its easy to see how nice, average and total hole can all apply to downtown Raleigh. Bus stations and soup kitchens feel about the same in every city in the south.....I have had guys in suits with briefcases ask me for money, and yet Christine (with the baseball bat and shopping cart) never has...go figure...I have adjusted to a very integrated downtown after being brought up in a white bread (bred) subdivision, but still get tired of being hassled for cash because I look like I might have some. I would say the fact the county courthouse is downtown is a larger factor in any perceived sketchiness downtown than the bus station, overall

[foodpainter]

Ugh, please NOT another Red Wolf Ramble type of thing. It was fine once, but it's just so safe. Yawn.

I'm so disappointed about Plensa's piece not being created, but I don't think this controversy arose solely because Raleigh is "small minded." Controversy often surrounds public art. Think of Richard Serra's Tilted Arc being removed once it was installed (was it early 90s, late 80s?) in NYC.