Proposal: COUNTY OFFICES MOVING?!

[Greenville]

To those of us who live closer to Cherrydale it's a little more than a 10 minute drive and I try to avoid going that way anytime I can. I'm not opposed to the offices moving per se but what I don't understand the thinking of moving "everything" out to Woodfuff Road. I'd settle for them moving out to one of the empty boxes on Laurens Road. Remember when Laurens Road when through the big road widening project a few years back and then everyone seemed to want to migrate to the narrower Woodruff Road which then had to be widened? Laurens Road is only a mile or two from the old Greenville Mall location but still very close to ICAR, Haywood Road. If you want to move county offices put them in the old Best Buy, Sam's Club, etc.

My previous post asked whether an extra 10 minute drive is really a big deal, given the very limited visits most County residents make to the County offices. I agree that a Woodruff Road location is not central, but it is closer to the highly populated and fastest-growing part of Greenville County. Does the new location, plus whatever would be developed on the current County Square site, promise to benefit more people than the current situation does? That is the key here, and I think the answer is yes.

[tablrock]

the only thing that ticks me off is that ward is talking about not breaking ground until 2008 or 2009. JEEZ i'm ready for this thing to start ASAP!!!

[linkerjpatrick]

My previous post asked whether an extra I agree that a Woodruff Road location is not central, but it is closer to the highly populated and fastest-growing part of Greenville County.

And that's the main thing I'm complaining about. Adding more things to a highly populated and fast growing area does nothing to help the problems of traffic. The fact that Greenville County is already stoked about moving their offices to this location indicates poor planning by the county already. Why they decided to build a new school near the intersection of Woodruff and Roper Mountain is beyond me.

Like I mentioned before what is the deal with the widening of Laurens Road (aka - The Motor Mile) and shortly afterward "everyone"(Best Buy, Sams Wal-Mart, etc.) gets the itch and moves to Woodruff Road?

[RestedTraveler]

I think I've personally been to University Ridge to go to the county government offices maybe once in six years. I've gone to the Clemson Extension office twice. I've gone over there to park for ballgames dozens of times.

The Greenville Mall has been there for 28 years, so I don't think that anyone there suddenly got the itch to go there recently. If anything, people have gotten the itch to leave the Greenville Mall and go to the Haywood Mall and to other places along Woodruff.

As for the County Government Offices: I, living in Travelers Rest, have no problem if I have to drive a few extra minutes to get to the county government offices, especially considering no more business than I have which actually requires me to go into the offices.

[vicupstate]

Wow,

Just getting in from visiting the folks, and reading all this. Let me say that I am shock that this proposal is getting so much 'con' from this audience. Some of you sound like the Wesst-End-ballfield-naysayers that we laugh at now. How long have we been saying that County Square needs to be redeveloped into a higher and better use?

I think whitehoursview is reading ENTIRELY too much into things. It will cost probably 100K to move the offices, not 10mm. Further, he is jumping to conclusions on the tax-subsidy matter. The article is not really clear an those details, and it is obvious that the final details are not nailed down.

I think LuvSC's post is dead-on. County Square isn't producing a dime in taxes to anyone, when it could be a tax bonanza. Also, developing Magnolia Plaza with more density, would increase it's taxable value as well.

Is this a win-win? If so, let's persue it. The details will have to be finalized in order to make a judgement on that, but let's don't pour cold water on this, until we see the actual proposal. This might be the best chance, and maybe the only one, to turn County Square into a tremendous ADDITION to WestEnd/DT, as well as a much needed link to Haynie/Sirrine area.

WHile it is unusual for County Offices to be located outside of Downtown, to a degree, they already are. I would think the vast majority of visitor's to County Square basically bypass DT via Church St. I further agree that most people NEVER go to County Square. Many things can be done online now, as well. I also agree with who ever said the county employees probably get in there cars and get lunch at any number of places, rather than automatically go DT.

[greenvilleguy]

AGREED!!! I don't think the employees at County Square are running over to Rick Erwins for a martini, nor are people shopping at Mast General stopping by County Square on the way out of town. Let the offices move to a nicely developed site on Woodruff where all offices can possibly be consolidated, and let them build something remarkable like Riverplace where those horrible looking county offices are. And if there are restaurants on the old CS site won't part of the tax go to downtown anyway?

[vicupstate]

the only thing that ticks me off is that ward is talking about not breaking ground until 2008 or 2009. JEEZ i'm ready for this thing to start ASAP!!!

If I am reading the article correctly, that would be the County Square project (that would start in '08 or '09), not Magnolia Plaza. Obviously, the County can't move until Magnolia Plaza is complete enough to move into.

[mallguy]

One thought: do we want the same developer developing a prime downtown spot who is trying to redevelop a dead mall into a "refined" center (from the developer's press release) consisting now of a Rooms to Go, a government office tower, a Myrtle Beach condo building, a Costco, a movie theater and a Sports Authority?

I still think Magnolia Park is not going to be anything special, and it's clearly having problems getting tenants; if County Square is going to be redeveloped, I wouldn't want yet another dud on that site, either. Perhaps the county should work with another developer to put the County Square site back on the tax rolls? I would think that a county proposal to give a developer the County Square site at a low price in exchange for the developer building a new office building for the county would be a very appealing idea for plenty of developers.

[GvilleSC]

If I am reading the article correctly, that would be the County Square project (that would start in '08 or '09), not Magnolia Plaza. Obviously, the County can't move until Magnolia Plaza is complete enough to move into.

Exactly. And by this time, excitement will have built up and the housing market downtown should be much better. I do have some reservations... but I think this is a great opportunity for the Church Street Corridor, the West End, Downtown in general and the Haynie-Sirrine neighborhood. So, Riverplace was big, McBee is BIGGER, and this will be HUGE!

[goodbye]

Wow,

Just getting in from visiting the folks, and reading all this. Let me say that I am shock that this proposal is getting so much 'con' from this audience. Some of you sound like the Wesst-End-ballfield-naysayers that we laugh at now. How long have we been saying that County Square needs to be redeveloped into a higher and better use?

I think whitehoursview is reading ENTIRELY too much into things. It will cost probably 100K to move the offices, not 10mm. Further, he is jumping to conclusions on the tax-subsidy matter. The article is not really clear an those details, and it is obvious that the final details are not nailed down.

I think LuvSC's post is dead-on. County Square isn't producing a dime in taxes to anyone, when it could be a tax bonanza. Also, developing Magnolia Plaza with more density, would increase it's taxable value as well.

Is this a win-win? If so, let's persue it. The details will have to be finalized in order to make a judgement on that, but let's don't pour cold water on this, until we see the actual proposal. This might be the best chance, and maybe the only one, to turn County Square into a tremendous ADDITION to WestEnd/DT, as well as a much needed link to Haynie/Sirrine area.

WHile it is unusual for County Offices to be located outside of Downtown, to a degree, they already are. I would think the vast majority of visitor's to County Square basically bypass DT via Church St. I further agree that most people NEVER go to County Square. Many things can be done online now, as well. I also agree with who ever said the county employees probably get in there cars and get lunch at any number of places, rather than automatically go DT.

You said a bunch there, vicupstate, and I agree with every word of it. How anyone could be completely opposed is rather mindboggling.

Exactly. And by this time, excitement will have built up and the housing market downtown should be much better. I do have some reservations... but I think this is a great opportunity for the Church Street Corridor, the West End, Downtown in general and the Haynie-Sirrine neighborhood. So, Riverplace was big, McBee is BIGGER, and this will be HUGE!

Actually, RiverPlace is definitely larger than McBee Station, though they are definitely similar in scope.

[linkerjpatrick]

I think some of what I have said is not being read correctly. I'm not opposed to County Office moving. I live in Berea, closer than Restedtraveler to Woodruff Road. While it's true that some people can hop in the car and go anywhere easily or even do things online I would assume they would be quite a few people who don't have the same luxury.

When I talked about people getting the Woodruff Road "itch" I did mean the recent spurt that happened within the last 10 years or so. Not just the Greenville Mall property.

I do find it odd that this Miami dude is having to resort to getting government offices to come in. Something about that Greenville Mall property creeps me out. It's like it's haunted or something.

[jarvismj]

It's been a thought in my mind, but I was thinking of having a developer build the offices into a tower downtown, and then "trade off" with the county for County Square. That would be the optimal situation. And yes, I agree with LinkerJ on this one. Gvl Mall site always creeped me out for some odd reason, and lastly, if they want to be successful, they're going to have to go balls out and drop a lot more money, and do something that hasn't been done down the street, or within 100 miles, because chances are, it's already been done before.

To sum this up, putting county square there in that location is a bad idea.

[Greenville]

We are making a huge assumption when we say that the Magnolia Park developer "must be having trouble luring tenants to Magnolia Park if he is having to resort to recruiting county offices." How do we know that this wasn't the plan all along? Perhaps he sees the incredible potential of the County Square site and sees this as the best way to develop it. Over the summer, btoy told us that we would be thrilled if the business being negotiated with for Magnolia Park ended up working out. I will be interested for btoy to tell us if that was the county offices or not.

Based on the article, we can also expect to lure some good tenants to Magnolia Park (e.g., Cheesecake Factory, Apple, ,etc.) due to the appeal of having so many county employees located on the site. Isn't that also a positive result of this plan? I think it is.

[vicupstate]

One thought: do we want the same developer developing a prime downtown spot who is trying to redevelop a dead mall into a "refined" center (from the developer's press release) consisting now of a Rooms to Go, a government office tower, a Myrtle Beach condo building, a Costco, a movie theater and a Sports Authority?

I still think Magnolia Park is not going to be anything special, and it's clearly having problems getting tenants; if County Square is going to be redeveloped, I wouldn't want yet another dud on that site, either. Perhaps the county should work with another developer to put the County Square site back on the tax rolls? I would think that a county proposal to give a developer the County Square site at a low price in exchange for the developer building a new office building for the county would be a very appealing idea for plenty of developers.

I don't know how you can say it's having problems getting tenants, when it already has four anchors. My take on the article is that, IF the County moves there, the project will CHANGE from just those items mentioned above, to include other tenants in ADDITION or perhaps INSTEAD of the aforementioned tenants. In other words, if the County gets onboard, the center will go more upscale and more dense, with a major Hotel, a Cheesecake Factory (Can PF Chang be far behind?) etc. This will result in higher tax collections for the city & county that make the deal work. A County Square-only developer would not be able to do that. A County Square-only developer would only be able to offer market value (15-20 mm) for County Square. Such a developer could not 'toss-in' a $50 million office building. Apparently it requires the taxes of BOTH the County square project AND an enhanced Magnolia Plaza to support the debt on a new County office building.

If the County doesn't get on-board, then Magnolia Plaza goes back to being a Power Center with those four anchors.

Or at least that is my read on it.

[Greenville]

I don't know how you can say it's having problems getting tenants, when it already has four anchors. My take on the article is that, IF the County moves there, the project will CHANGE from just those items mentioned above, to include other tenants in ADDITION or perhaps INSTEAD of the aforementioned tenants. In other words, if the County gets onboard, the center will go more upscale and more dense, with a major Hotel, a Cheesecake Factory (Can PF Chang be far behind?) etc. This will result in higher tax collections for the city & county that make the deal work. A County Square-only developer would not be able to do that. A County Square-only developer would only be able to offer market value (15-20 mm) for County Square. Such a developer could not 'toss-in' a $50 million office building. Apparently it requires the taxes of BOTH the County square project AND an enhanced Magnolia Plaza to support the debt on a new County office building.

If the County doesn't get on-board, then Magnolia Plaza goes back to being a Power Center with those four anchors.

Or at least that is my read on it.

P.F. Chang's is already open on Woodruff, at Greenridge. Are you suggesting that they would move from their current location (which is less than a year old) to Magnolia Park, or did you mean to type a different restaurant?

If Cheesecake Factory locates at Greenridge, I would not be surprised to also see the likes of Maggianno's Little Italy and Ruth's Chris there.

[Spartan]

As far as a centralized location for the county government offices, the Magnoia Place/Greenville Mall site is just about perfectly centered with respect to the county's population distribution.

Exactly. The population distribution is more important than the geographic center.

I'm not sure what you mean by "more sprawl." I should point out that the county government offices, should they move to the former Greenville Mall site, will not technically be any more sprawl than what was already there. Furthermore, the tower itself is an urbanization of what had been sprawl.

This is basicly what I was thinking. Its a step to transform crappy sprawl into something more urban. if the government invests there, they will ensure the future of that site for many years to come. Governments don't invest in sites for the short term. Its always long term.

And that's the main thing I'm complaining about. Adding more things to a highly populated and fast growing area does nothing to help the problems of traffic. The fact that Greenville County is already stoked about moving their offices to this location indicates poor planning by the county already. Why they decided to build a new school near the intersection of Woodruff and Roper Mountain is beyond me.

Like I mentioned before what is the deal with the widening of Laurens Road (aka - The Motor Mile) and shortly afterward "everyone"(Best Buy, Sams Wal-Mart, etc.) gets the itch and moves to Woodruff Road?

I am curious as to why nobody else has opposed this news based on this fact alone. 1000 more workers on Woodruff Rf will NOT help the traffic there at all. Its bad enough as it is, and there is no alternate access to that site. Its woodruff Rd or nothing.

If I were a county worker, I would not want to leave downtown. The current location is within walking distance of the West End and Main St. Lunches out would not be the same.

In addition, I am in agreement that government should invest in the center city area, not the suburban areas. Regardless of the scope of this project, downtown is simply a better location for long term investment. They could really take this opportunity to build in a part of downtown that needs investment right now, and not the suburbs just to lure in some national chain shop/restaurant.

[distortedlogic]

I agree with some, that having co offices move to Woodruff is not the best scenario, but it could be worse. In any case, things will continue to move out there for awhile, and if this project can help make Magnolia park better (ie a major office building, hotel, etc) then it may be worth it. I too would like to see a 20 story building DT to house the new offices, but then that may never happen. We have to look at the current proposal and see if the good outweighs the bad or not. Having it go out to Gville mall site may not be ideal, but it may be totally worth it if we get a first class development on the current site, along with a better Magnolia park project. Imagine having a a residential highrise, office highrise, and a hotel midrise all on that site. This would really make an impression on our midtown. But even more, this would be an incredible opportunity for University Square. But, the article said it would "blend in" with the rest of West End. I would not want this project if it is a collection of low to midrise brick buildings, with parking lots. That would be a terrible waste!. It would need to be something unprecendented for DT. Perhaps a collection of residential and mixed use HIGHRISES, with some original architecture, and pedestrian attractions. I would not want to see a Riverplace or McBee type development for this part of DT. This is perhaps the largest piece of DT left that we could find that would be suitiable for a development project that could truly take us to the next level, and maybe even be home to a signature tower. Unless these things could happen, I would not want the transfer to go through. If this developer sees potential with County square, then I would bet other developers do too. Perhaps they could propose better developments if this one does not look to be FIRST CLASS.

[linkerjpatrick]

I have an idea for the Greenville Mall land. Let's return it to the land, at least for a little while. Since that spot in such an economic black hole it would better serve the community as a new forested plot. Let's return some green to Greenville. I'm tired of the trend to take over every forested lot and turn it into yet another strip mall.

Woodruff Road doesn't need any more development and their is nothing wrong with letting a plot of land stand vacant for many years. It's like urban "crop rotation".

I like this forum because it keeps me aware of the local issues better than most places but I'm not means an "urbanist". That doesn't mean I'm a "tree hugger" either however.

[RestedTraveler]

I somewhat feel the same way; however, that'll never happen. Had anyone investing in these properties really cared about keeping some green in Greenville and not causing too much traffic on Woodruff Road, the Shops at Gridlock would never have been developed and instead, they may have re-developed the Greenville Maill into what is now the Shops at Gridlock.

I suppose I am an urbanist from the standpoint that I'd rather see these properties built up, not out. Add height. Add density. Add better transportation alternatives. Leave untouched lands untouched. This is nearly irony from me since I live in suburbia, but I'd prefer there was no such thing as suburbia.

[vicupstate]

I have an idea for the Greenville Mall land. Let's return it to the land, at least for a little while. Since that spot in such an economic black hole it would better serve the community as a new forested plot. Let's return some green to Greenville. I'm tired of the trend to take over every forested lot and turn it into yet another strip mall.

Woodruff Road doesn't need any more development and their is nothing wrong with letting a plot of land stand vacant for many years. It's like urban "crop rotation".

I like this forum because it keeps me aware of the local issues better than most places but I'm not means an "urbanist". That doesn't mean I'm a "tree hugger" either however.

No offense, but this is not a logical option. The site is already developed. It is NOT virgin timberland. Conservation should be concerned with making sure that what IS forest, STAYS forest. The owner spent $37mm for this property, who is going to front that much money PLUS the demo cost, PLUS the lost profit potential to turn a mere 66 acres back to conservation. No one. For that amount of money thousands (maybe even tens of thousands) of acres somewhere else could be preserved.

Also, don't forget that even if the County doesn't move to Magnolia Plaza, the Costco/Rooms To Go, et al option would STILL increase the traffic.

The best option is to get some density out of this project, so we get more than 2/3rds surface parking out of this 66 acres.

A DT county office building would be my FIRST choice as well, but that is not realistic given our current county leadership. They are not urbanist in any sense. The only reason they are interested in this option is because it is to there financial benefit.

[btoy]

We are making a huge assumption when we say that the Magnolia Park developer "must be having trouble luring tenants to Magnolia Park if he is having to resort to recruiting county offices." How do we know that this wasn't the plan all along? Perhaps he sees the incredible potential of the County Square site and sees this as the best way to develop it. Over the summer, btoy told us that we would be thrilled if the business being negotiated with for Magnolia Park ended up working out. I will be interested for btoy to tell us if that was the county offices or not.

Based on the article, we can also expect to lure some good tenants to Magnolia Park (e.g., Cheesecake Factory, Apple, ,etc.) due to the appeal of having so many county employees located on the site. Isn't that also a positive result of this plan? I think it is.

I do not have a computer at home, I regeret missing all the lively debate over the weekend, as I read through I kept wanting to reply but before I got to the end someone else had already said what I wanted to. We need a mobile version of this board so I can read and post from my Q.

Anyway, as "Greenville" state, this has been in the works for a while, since before the Magnolia Park was announced and maybe since before the mall was purchased. This is not new. I have wanted to share about it for a long time but had to keep quiet. That was hard. But I am also suprised, I never imagined I would see the negative responses I have on here.

I think it is a great Idea. It does make the offices much more central in my opininon, for the people of Greer it cuts 15 min. off their drive. And what about Mauldin Simpsonville and that area, that is where much of the county lives and it brings the offices closer to them. Also, it puts them right along two interstates, though the old offices had great access as well due to I-185.

In my opininon all the increased costs of new more expensive offices will be taken care of with increased tax revenue, that is what needs to be looked at to make this work. That is why the county would probubly require things are done with in a certain time line. Worst Case cenario would be the County Moving to Woodruff and then nothing happening at County Square for a decade.

Also, with regards to the developer, I am sure county square redevelopment would happen like Riverplace where their is a Master Developer with individual projects being taken up by other firms. At Riverplace Hughes is the Master but you have aspects being developed by Windsor Aughtry and Allora.

The one thing that got me about the article is this...

Kirven said the county wants to make sure any development at County Square doesn't displace residents of the nearby Haynie-Sirrine neighborhood.

After Universtiy Town Center or Mid-Town Center or what ever the name is is built, much of the residents will already be displaced, the rest will I am sure with in a few years regardless of wether or not County Square is redeveloped. Haynie Sirrine is changing, it will not remain a slum wether the city wants to or not, the whole area is likely to be gentrified and I think to possibily not develope county square for fear of displacing residents would be a gigantic mistake.

[linkerjpatrick]

Had anyone investing in these properties really cared about keeping some green in Greenville and not causing too much traffic on Woodruff Road, the Shops at Gridlock would never have been developed and instead, they may have re-developed the Greenville Maill into what is now the Shops at Gridlock.

Yes, that would have been ideal. I was sort of being tounge-in-cheek when I suggested changing it back to a forest but I'm no "Urbanist" either. I like seeing "healthy" growth but not growth out of control (that's called a cancer). I like the forum because of how active it is but I have no desire to huge urban growth.

[mallguy]

A mixed-use project anchored by a county government office building sounds about as glamorous and appealing to high-end tenants as a mall anchored by a post office, an Amtrak station and a DMV office.

The developer should wait for a better tenant for Magnolia Park. If an office tenant is sought, there should be companies with lots of relatively highly-paid employees (compared to county government employees) and the ability to pay high rent that will eventually come along. Given the area's boom, it shouldn't take too long.

[vicupstate]

Glad to finally see you weigh-in btoy. So are there any details you can share that haven't been published? Or are you still having to 'hold in' some juicy details?

Frankly, I'm glad that this idea has been around for awhile, maybe that bodes well for it coming to fruition. If this comes about, it will be an unusual, complex deal with lots of parties that all have to come to an agreement. If this becomes reality and is as beneficial as some of us think it would be, it will make a big statement on the ability of Greenville to continue reaching for the next level as a metro, IMO.

[vicupstate]

A mixed-use project anchored by a county government office building sounds about as glamorous and appealing to high-end tenants as a mall anchored by a post office, an Amtrak station and a DMV office.

The developer should wait for a better tenant for Magnolia Park. If an office tenant is sought, there should be companies with lots of relatively highly-paid employees (compared to county government employees) and the ability to pay high rent that will eventually come along. Given the area's boom, it shouldn't take too long.

A bird in the hand is worth 16 in the bush. The developer has already stated that having the county there is enough to bring in the more upscale tenants. It sounds like what these tenants are looking for is the density, and 'appearance' that density would bring. Having 2-3 mid-to-high rises on the site, would definitely distinguish it from the Shops at GreenRidge, and everyhting else further down Wooodruff Rd.