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Proposal: COUNTY OFFICES MOVING?!


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Glad to finally see you weigh-in btoy. So are there any details you can share that haven't been published? Or are you still having to 'hold in' some juicy details?

Frankly, I'm glad that this idea has been around for awhile, maybe that bodes well for it coming to fruition. If this comes about, it will be an unusual, complex deal with lots of parties that all have to come to an agreement. If this becomes reality and is as beneficial as some of us think it would be, it will make a big statement on the ability of Greenville to continue reaching for the next level as a metro, IMO.

I have heard very little that isn't already known at this point. Wish I had more to share.

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A couple concerns...

Developer concerns

The developer of Magnolia Town Park paid $37 million for this property. Everyone I know in the real estate business was shocked at how much the developer paid for the property. I think we now know why they paid so much. Clearly the county square movement conversation has been going on for awhile. The site has failed multiple times as a retail destination. Clearly, the developer needs the county to step in and help justify the expensive pricetag of the property. It's alot easier to sell property to investors when a long-term tenant that provides 1000+ employees in a concentrated location. I think it's funny how attractive tenants are being "name-dropped," as if they are the justification for making the move.

I haven't looked at the financial particulars, but I certainly hope that the developer is providing more to the county than the county is providing in return. The county didn't pay $37 million for the land. The county shouldn't be jumping through any hoops to help save the person who did.

City

I'm having a hard time seeing the city's point-of-view on this. One of their biggest concerns is increasing retail development downtown. I'm scratching my head as to how removing one of your largest employers out of the downtown area makes sense.

vs South Financial

This debate seems to me to be very similar to The South Financial Group HQ debate. If someone is opposed to The South Financial Group being located in the suburbs, than this should be no different. If anything, this should be more of a concern, as we aren't luring new business by doing this move.

A better plan

Keep county square where it is, or at least downtown. Tear it down, but keep that employment source downtown. Or better yet, tear it down and move county square to a tower in one of the many-vacany parking lots downtown. Then you still have employment downtown, prime real estate opened for development, and a potential expansion of the downtown beyond just Main Street.

edit: typo on the dollar amount

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Well put Breed. The only winner I see out of this deal is the developer of Magnolia.

Course, putting county offices on Woodruff Road might make symbolic sense. Nothing illustrates the failure of Greenville County to plan quite like Woodruff Road. So maybe there would some sort of justice for the county workers to have to deal with that gridlock on a daily basis to remind them to plan better in the future.

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I also see downtown as a winner of this, as long as the County Square redevelopment is done well.

Currently we have 1,000 government employees, who probably aren't rolling in money, in a dead mall resurrected as B-grade office space, surrounded by parking lots. The site is thus seriously underutilized. Bringing in a comparable number of better-paid office workers and/or residents, or good retail, could have a much larger economic impact on downtown than County Square currently has.

And for Magnolia Park, I really don't think that a high-end retailer such as the Apple Store will be drawn to the site by 1,000 government employees. An office tower with six-figure-salary private-sector workers on a 20-year lease or the like would be a much bigger draw, since high-end retailers need sufficient numbers of people making sufficient incomes to meet their criteria.

I agree with the above posts that the county should wait for another proposal that would put its offices somewhere downtown.

Hopefully the County Square site isn't fated to fail again as a retail area, just as Greenville Mall repeatedly failed. I see a mixed-use development working better than another strip mall or the like at the County Square site.

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... Why they decided to build a new school near the intersection of Woodruff and Roper Mountain is beyond me...

I believe the old Beck was located at the edge of its district, and the move brings it to a more central location within its district. I assume development in the Verdae area was considered, as well as that the old location was near a notorious housing project.

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Course, putting county offices on Woodruff Road might make symbolic sense. Nothing illustrates the failure of Greenville County to plan quite like Woodruff Road. So maybe there would some sort of justice for the county workers to have to deal with that gridlock on a daily basis to remind them to plan better in the future.

Nicely done!

Now for my two cents ... I don't think it is an ideal location, if they really want to move the offices. I think something in the Laurens Rd/Pleasantburg Area would be more appropriate.

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I really don't see the argument for how County Square is a boom for DT. I would assume the employees get in there cars and hit Augusta Road or the GHS area for lunch. It's a pretty long walk across asphat lots to get from County Square to the closest eatery in West End, and MUCH farther to the Main Street (Hyatt to Poinsett) ones. Plus the same trip back. That doesn't accomodate a one hour lunch break very well. They would have to get in their cars, in which case, they are just as likely to hit the suburban areas, were parking is ample.

I also don't see how anyone will build the county a new office building for the $15million that the County Square site is worth. There are no 66 acre sites downtown that will provide the tax basis to support the debt to build a $50-70 million project. Those willing to wait on another proposal will be waiting a long time IMO.

I would LOVE to have seen TSFG downtown, but many office users are only going to consider suburban sites.

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I still do not see what the fuss is all about. This would be a positive in several ways, IMO. The County Square land is prime enough to warrant such a move. The County offices will be well positioned along I-85 and I-385, with very high visibility to countless travelers simply passing and stopping by. There are plenty of available options on Woodruff Road to incorporate into a trip to a new County Square at Magnolia Park Town Center. The area around Magnolia Park will, regardless of anyone's beliefs and hopes, become one of the hottest places in the entire county (even state) within the next decade. There should be little or no doubt that downtown is on such an upswing that nothing will impede its steady growth over the next several decades (except perhaps the DPC). Despite what some people bemoan when they hear of a business or organization moving into the parks along the I-85 corridor, downtown is Greenville's #1 destination, and that will not change in our lifetimes. I'll add more later...

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South Financial will probably be starting before to much longer. I cant say a whole lot because Doug harper. had to sign a lot of confidentiality papers that he wouldnt give out to much info on it. Dont forget about Mcbee station starting either probably in the next 2-3 weeks. I wouldnt mind seeing the county offices move to magnolia park, and seeing the land they were on developed into something much much better.

I have no doubt that, when all is said and done, the University Ridge property would be developed into something amazing and outstanding with a blend of urbanity and park-like settings to tie into both the Reedy River Park System and downtown Greenville.

Send me a P.M. when work is set to begin on McBee Station and I'll get out and snap a few photos. :thumbsup:

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I really don't see the argument for how County Square is a boom for DT. I would assume the employees get in there cars and hit Augusta Road or the GHS area for lunch. It's a pretty long walk across asphat lots to get from County Square to the closest eatery in West End, and MUCH farther to the Main Street (Hyatt to Poinsett) ones. Plus the same trip back. That doesn't accomodate a one hour lunch break very well. They would have to get in their cars, in which case, they are just as likely to hit the suburban areas, were parking is ample.

Having worked at county square, I know this isn't true. The West End is within walking distance, and most social lunches are had downtown.

I also don't see how anyone will build the county a new office building for the $15million that the County Square site is worth. There are no 66 acre sites downtown that will provide the tax basis to support the debt to build a $50-70 million project. Those willing to wait on another proposal will be waiting a long time IMO.

$15 millions seems like a discount when you consider the cost of the Greenville Mall property. In addition, the current county square property is only 30 acres. Of that, only half is actually occupied by a building and utilized parking.

And if you were to build up, you'd have no problem fitting all of the offices at County Square into a very small space. County Square has approximately 300,000 sf of space. The Landmark Building is about 375,000 sf of space and sits on about 2-3 acres of land.

County

I would LOVE to have seen TSFG downtown, but many office users are only going to consider suburban sites.

I think TSFG headquarters was worth letting them go to the suburbs... but to take something out of downtown for, what appears to me to be, the primary benefit of the developers, seems kind of silly... especially when you consider that this will weaken the ability to market downtown as a good destination for retail.

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Sometimes (often?, always?) government buildings require extra security and thus cannot have retail on the first floor. Would this be the case at the mall site? I know the thread started with talk about a Cheesecake Factory and Apple Store. Were those in the highrise or nearby? It makes a difference to me.

Ultimately, I don't mind government offices moving out of downtown although it does seem a shame if it could remain without compromising the entire County Square area. A highrise built on 2-3 acres of the current site and the rest developed into park, mixed use office/retail/residential seems like a win/win/win. Good for G'ville. Money earned in land sale. Good for residents. Brand new county offices. Good for downtown, employees stay downtown and a new office tower! But again, I'm not opposed to a move.

I do want to chime in on the visibility from the freeway question: My main concern would be the architecture of the proposed building. If it looks like government buildings often do - that would NOT be a positive impression on passersby. An attractive building might be though. Especially as you drive down 385 towards downtown. The whole stretch is becoming reasonably urbanized. This would just help stretch it out and make it better.... IF the building is attractive and stays attractive over time.

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I have seen some posts offering alternatives to the current plan, but I think it's important to remember that the county is only considering this move because it benefits them. To my knowledge, they are otherwise happy to stay where they are at County Square. So we can say that we would prefer a downtown location, but that is a moot point because that is not an option. It's either moving the county offices to Magnolia Park, or keeping things the way they are.

And if they stay the way they are, I bet it will be a long, long time before another proposal comes along that entices the county enough to consider moving. Thus, the current proposal (while not optimal) has many positives and very few negatives. We have to jump on this opportunity to take the next step as a city and as a metro. It's a win-win.

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I have seen some posts offering alternatives to the current plan, but I think it's important to remember that the county is only considering this move because it benefits them. To my knowledge, they are otherwise happy to stay where they are at County Square. So we can say that we would prefer a downtown location, but that is a moot point because that is not an option. It's either moving the county offices to Magnolia Park, or keeping things the way they are.

And if they stay the way they are, I bet it will be a long, long time before another proposal comes along that entices the county enough to consider moving. Thus, the current proposal (while not optimal) has many positives and very few negatives. We have to jump on this opportunity to take the next step as a city and as a metro. It's a win-win.

Very well put.

As for $15mm being a discount, that is what the appraiser put it at. County Square is LESS than HALF the size of Magnolia Plaza and has NO interstate frontage while M.P. has substantial frontage along TWO interstates. County Square fronts a street (University Ridge) with only other government offices fronting it, and it abruptly narrows and turns residential.

This is NOT a choice between a DT County Office Building and one at Magnolia Plaza. It is a choice between leaving County square as is, or finally putting it in private hands where it can be developed to it's highest and best use. Leaving the county with a small portion of the site, would reduce the land area available for development, while not providing any means to support $50mm + in debt that a new county office building would require. It will take the 33 acres of County square AND the 66 value-enhanced acres of Magnolia Plaza to carry that much debt.

There is also NOTHING to prevent an office use in a redeveloped County Square. It could even bring as many employees as the county did, perhaps more.

The fact that County Square is grossly under-utlized is exactly the reason that it needs to change hands.

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I'm not necessarily opposed to a move... but I just think that the county needs to be getting a sweet deal, because by agreeing to relocate, they are saving the Magnolia developer's keister.

I don't buy the argument that this is some once-in-a-lifetime-deal. The property that county square sits on is prime acquisition property. If not this developer who is motivated by paying too much for the Greenville Mall, then it will be someone else.

One pro of the move... it will provide another potential hub for some kind of mass transit. Right now, the Greenville market has one legitimate mass transit destination... downtown Greenville. The ICAR/Millenium Campus has the potential to emerge as another, as does this.

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I'm not necessarily opposed to a move... but I just think that the county needs to be getting a sweet deal, because by agreeing to relocate, they are saving the Magnolia developer's keister.

I don't buy the argument that this is some once-in-a-lifetime-deal. The property that county square sits on is prime acquisition property. If not this developer who is motivated by paying too much for the Greenville Mall, then it will be someone else.

One pro of the move... it will provide another potential hub for some kind of mass transit. Right now, the Greenville market has one legitimate mass transit destination... downtown Greenville. The ICAR/Millenium Campus has the potential to emerge as another, as does this.

It is pure conjecture on your part that the county must 'bail-out' this developer. What company, not to mention their financing partner, would pay $37 mm for a site that will ONLY make a profit if a VERY CONSERVATIVE political body joins forces with a second political body (city council) to bail it out? Keep in mind that the city and county don't exactly see eye-to-eye on things to begin with. That's not reality. They would have better odds in Vegas. If this were an RPF, or the developer only had an OPTION to buy the property, I might buy that. But they have closed on the property and are about to start demolition. They are committed to the site regardless, even though a county decision is at LEAST two months away.

Show me the logic that Magnolia Plaza can't make money without the county.

Also, if $37mm is TOO much to spend for 66 acres with dual-iinterstate frontage, why do you think developers will gladly pay more than that for 30 acres at County Square?

Greenville County Council is not going to raise taxes to replace offices they already have. Any developer looking to buy County Square has got to have a means to pay for the building, and not just pay market value for the land at County Square. Only a developer with a separate, large-scale project would even be in a position to consider it. How many of those can there be? How many of that number would be willing to negotiate for months to work a deal with the county, when this deal (hypothetically speaking) didn't?

Once-in-a-lifetime-deal, no. Once-in-a-decade (or more), quite possibly.

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I'm not necessarily opposed to a move... but I just think that the county needs to be getting a sweet deal, because by agreeing to relocate, they are saving the Magnolia developer's keister.

Another poster here who works in real estate (btoy) told us that this deal has been on the table for quite some time, even before Magnolia Park was announced. He alluded to this rumor months ago, but couldn't say anything specifically. So I do not see how you can say that the county is rushing to the aid of the Magnolia Park developer to "bail him out." For all we know, this deal might have been on the table before the developer even purchased Greenville Mall (and with the magnitude of such a deal, I would not be surprised if that were the case). Regardless, we know that talks between the developer and the county have been going on for quite some time. I hope it happens, because it is certainly a rare and wonderful opportunity.

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It is pure conjecture on your part that the county must 'bail-out' this developer. What company, not to mention their financing partner, would pay $37 mm for a site that will ONLY make a profit if a VERY CONSERVATIVE political body joins forces with a second political body (city council) to bail it out?

I didn't say it was well thought-out. But the numbers are screwy. The Hollingsworth property (for Shops at Greenridge) was purchased at about $200,000 per acre. The Greenville Mall was purchased at over $500,000 per acre... and when you factor in demolition costs... it's much higher.

Show me the logic that Magnolia Plaza can't make money without the county.

I think it can do fine without the county. But clearly there are some issues attracting the best clients... and that's not surprising, given the property's history with retail.

One thing that must be noted, the financial benefits of the deal to the county haven't been covered in-detail. So it is entirely possible that this may be a great thing, but nothing I've read has assured me of this. I hope that it is a great thing, and I believe that in the end it will turn out to be, but right now, it's all based on faith.

I hope it happens, because it is certainly a rare and wonderful opportunity.

I don't doubt that whatever gets developed will be phenomenal. As new property generally is. But until we know more specifics, it's difficult to say whether it is worth it. It probably will be, though.

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It is pure conjecture on your part that the county must 'bail-out' this developer. What company, not to mention their financing partner, would pay $37 mm for a site that will ONLY make a profit if a VERY CONSERVATIVE political body joins forces with a second political body (city council) to bail it out? Keep in mind that the city and county don't exactly see eye-to-eye on things to begin with. That's not reality. They would have better odds in Vegas. If this were an RPF, or the developer only had an OPTION to buy the property, I might buy that. But they have closed on the property and are about to start demolition. They are committed to the site regardless, even though a county decision is at LEAST two months away.

Show me the logic that Magnolia Plaza can't make money without the county.

Also, if $37mm is TOO much to spend for 66 acres with dual-iinterstate frontage, why do you think developers will gladly pay more than that for 30 acres at County Square?

Greenville County Council is not going to raise taxes to replace offices they already have. Any developer looking to buy County Square has got to have a means to pay for the building, and not just pay market value for the land at County Square. Only a developer with a separate, large-scale project would even be in a position to consider it. How many of those can there be? How many of that number would be willing to negotiate for months to work a deal with the county, when this deal (hypothetically speaking) didn't?

Once-in-a-lifetime-deal, no. Once-in-a-decade (or more), quite possibly.

Well put.

And I too think it could be at LEAST a decade before another proposal like this may come, and maybe several decades. There are some negatives of course (as pointed out), but remember that this is a TREMENDOUS opportunity for, not just one project, but TWO. It could make the Magnolia project much better, and open up one of the most prime spots DT for MAJOR development (hopefully it will be walkable, dense, unique, attractive, and tall; very very tall! :D ). We have been hoping for both of these for some time. Any development put up in County Square property would likely house at least as many residents or employees (or both) as will be sent to Woodruff. This could be (if done right) the project that takes Gville to the next level, so I hope it works out.

I also do not buy that the GMall site will never work out "because it never has before." This is utter superstition. It didn't work because others came along with a better project. Now it is time for a different and unique project, on one of the most visible spots in Gville.

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I was over by Greenville Mall (I think for some reason we will call it that no matter what is placed there) and it occured to me one major problem it had. It's only for all practical purposes a "three-sided" mall. I usually drive behind it if I go over to CompUSA as a shortcut to avoid traffic on Woodruff Road. That backside is kind of creepy. It didn't have a good centralized entrace either.

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I like the idea of moving county square and building a mixed-use development in its place, but I don't like where their moving the county offices to. It makes it a lot further of a distance for the poor people living on the west side of town. Also, it's just going to cause more traffic headaches on the already busy Woodruff Rd. I wish they would of moved the county offices to a new skyscraper downtown instead of on Woodruff Rd.

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