Restaurants in the city

[jcrc]

Exaclty, many out of towners are going to be in the general area around the Convention center, Wadsworth, and Front street. Not many are going to wander up near the Civic center unless there is some sort of event there. People like chains because they know what is expected, I think not only out of towners feel comfortable with this but also many locals who don't really know what Hartford has to offer. A family in Manchester might know P.F. Changs or the Capital Grill but has no idea about the smaller independant establishment thet are in the city right now. I agree we need to have independent places but I also think the chains will bring in more people who might not care to take a chance on a place they don't know much about, and there are many people who are like that.

I think people go to chains because local establishments do not promote themselves as well as they can to the hotels and visiting center. We get a lot of out of towners because we let hotels in Hartford know we open 7 days a week, so hotel staffs send people over on weekends, but now they just send them to us even on weekdays.

[jcrc]

I personally don't think national chains add as much to the dinning scenes as well run indies. New Haven, and Northampton are example of cities without Cheese Cake Factory, PF Chang, and Mortons/Roth Chris yet they do very well. The fact is those corporations rely on demographic and statistic to open restaurants, they just do not know Hartford's market as well as restaurateurs that are in the area. National chains and retailers will always select West Hartford and malls over Hartford. Hartford, Northland and other developers will be much better off if they concentrate their effort on getting local entrepreneurs into invest in the city.

[ctman987]

First on a seperate now but on this topic...

Mortons's Steakhouse at State House Square is part of an article today in the Courant and its says there doing pretty well. They have seen business increase since the Convention Center open and they do a lot of catering/banquets/parties. They still do not have the base to open the restaurant for lunch but they say they only have six restaurants that are in very busy urban areas that are open for lunch.

http://www.courant.com/business/hc-mortons...dlines-business

Forget about thriving to be another city. Lets just strive to make Hartford the best it can be. I personally know I prefer locally owned and operated restaurants such as Hot Tomato's, Red Plate, Max Downtown, TK, Black Eyed Sallys and Joe Blacks. I think they add character and have there own feel and as you can see many of these restaurants have opened up spaces that a chain may not have considered. Hot Tomato's is at Union Place, Joe Blacks is in the old Society for Savings, Red Plate & Mayor Mikes in older buildings on Asylum Street...you get the picture.

Anyway I am not doubting the Providence restaurant scene...I have been to Providence and eaten in Providence and its great. Theres the college vibe of College Hill, the italian restaurants of Federal Hill, Center City restaurants, etc. I think though if we have to have someone to look up to lets make it a major city like NYC....we all want public transportation like NYC does, are we going to envy public transit in Providence then?

And I will again bring up the ever growing and popular restaurant/bar/club/coffee shop scene in New Haven. New Haven upscale restaurants, take out places, diners, cafes, bookstores with cafes, bars, clubs, ice cream shops, etc. You can find almost anything in the city and I think this is noteworthy. Depsite being close to NYC and connected by rail it has retained its New England charm unlike Stamford for example

yales info on eating in the city

http://www.yale.edu/admit/take_it_from_us/eating/index.html

[runawayjim]

I personally don't think national chains add as much to the dinning scenes as well run indies. New Haven, and Northampton are example of cities without Cheese Cake Factory, PF Chang, and Mortons/Roth Chris yet they do very well. The fact is those corporations rely on demographic and statistic to open restaurants, they just do not know Hartford's market as well as restaurateurs that are in the area. National chains and retailers will always select West Hartford and malls over Hartford. Hartford, Northland and other developers will be much better off if they concentrate their effort on getting local entrepreneurs into invest in the city.

you'd be surprised how well those demographics and statistics those corporations use to open chain restaurants work. the chains add something the indies don't... a well known restaurant that serves food that can pretty much be relied on to be consistent. business travelers and convention-goers don't necessarily have the time to try some independent restaurant in a city they've never been to. while they do rely on the hotel for recommendations sometimes, if they know there's a chain that consistently serves great food, they'd generally prefer to go there.

also... having a good base of chains helps other businesses and corporations see that there's some sort of base and helps those companies decide to open up in that city rathe than somewhere else.

[jcrc]

you'd be surprised how well those demographics and statistics those corporations use to open chain restaurants work. the chains add something the indies don't... a well known restaurant that serves food that can pretty much be relied on to be consistent. business travelers and convention-goers don't necessarily have the time to try some independent restaurant in a city they've never been to. while they do rely on the hotel for recommendations sometimes, if they know there's a chain that consistently serves great food, they'd generally prefer to go there.

also... having a good base of chains helps other businesses and corporations see that there's some sort of base and helps those companies decide to open up in that city rathe than somewhere else.

I know those corporations will laugh their butts off and can your butt if you are the site selectors who are getting big bucks and you suggested one of the poorest cities in the country to open their next dining establishment. The chains add something the indies don't, well financed name recognition and marketing, but not consistency, and most definitely not great food.

You are lumping business travelers and conventioneers into one homogeneous monotonous group of automatons that dine at chains only for safety and time. That is simply not the case. Plenty of them rely on local recommendations for their dinning and clubbing.

[Cotuit]

Cotuit - That is absurd. I'm in LA now. I travel all over the country, I eat in great restaurants, often on expense accounts or on the businesses I work with. No one has ever mentioned Providence in any way, certainly no one has ever "recognized" Providence as a great restaurant town. C'mon, get serious. Neither Hartford nor Providence can compete (or will ever compete) with New York, LA, Chicago, DC, Miami as dining meccas.

Oh of course you know everything, after all you're in LA now. Give me a break, get out and talk to people who know food, Providence has a reputation. Being a small city of course you aren't going to hear about it from random people walking down the street in major cities, but the people who make food their business know Providence. You sir are absurd.

It is realistic to aspire to have many unique restaurants, and it is shooting too low to worry that Providence has a Roy Rogers and we don't - as was the original poster in this thread

Sounds like sour grapes to me. Why can't you just admit that Providence has a great restaurant scene? It is most certainly a model Hartford can look to among other similar sized cities.

[Cotuit]

Providence does not have a better selection of restaurants than Boston, they may have a greater percentage of higher quality restaurants, but overall Boston has better restaurants.

Boston being a larger city, Providence's actual selection of restaurants is certainly not larger than Boston's. Like any good cosmopolitan city, Boston does have a selection of good restaurants, but the dining scene in Boston does not factor much into it's national reputation. Providence's national reputation (which of course is much smaller than Boston's) does include it's great dining options. It's a happy accident that we have one of the best culinary schools in the nation here that makes that so, but it is so.

[Cotuit]

I think people go to chains because local establishments do not promote themselves as well as they can to the hotels and visiting center.

I agree, and that's where our size helps cities like Hartford and Providence. The restaurants in Providence have excellent relationships with the Downcity hotels. My boyfriend works for a hotel and we are endlessly getting invited to free dinners and events at local restaurants to try the menu and hopefully send people from the hotel there. The restaurants in Providence do an excellent job keeping the hotels informed about menu changes and the like. With the small number of hotels each city has, it's a little work that goes a long way toward making a restaurant successful.

[runawayjim]

I know those corporations will laugh their butts off and can your butt if you are the site selectors who are getting big bucks and you suggested one of the poorest cities in the country to open their next dining establishment. The chains add something the indies don't, well financed name recognition and marketing, but not consistency, and most definitely not great food.

You are lumping business travelers and conventioneers into one homogeneous monotonous group of automatons that dine at chains only for safety and time. That is simply not the case. Plenty of them rely on local recommendations for their dinning and clubbing.

so are you saying that hartford is less of a city because it's one of the poorest in the country? if that were the case, all those corporations there that many of you pride yourselves on would not be there and much of the development going on there would not be happening. providence has a large population below the poverty line. larger than i am happy about, but that's how it is. but taht's not stopping all these restaurant chains from opening up here rather than somewhere like seekonk (only 3 miles away) or warwick (suburban hell).

i do agree with you that plenty of business travelers and convention-goers do seek out local dining options... but the majority of them (which is what i'm talking about) do not.

[Cotuit]

You are lumping business travelers and conventioneers into one homogeneous monotonous group of automatons that dine at chains only for safety and time. That is simply not the case. Plenty of them rely on local recommendations for their dinning and clubbing.

Of course some conventioneers and business travelers like to find the local options, but some people are set in their ways and like what they know. This of course is where that relationship with the hotels does its job for the locals. I know when I used to work Toy Fair in New York, our group had our group dinner at the same place every year, and some nights we'd just drag our tired asses into a Times Square chain, and other nights we'd go out into the city and explore.

[Theophrastus Bombastus]

I guess I'm missing the boat on this, but why the constant p*ssing match between Hartford and Providence? Who really cares? They really are not in each other's sphere of influence. Convention biz comparisons maybe are relevant, but we should really just try to be as good as we can be and stop comparing ourselves to others! If you insist, it should be with Springfield and New Haven. I've been to Prov maybe 3 times in the last 10 years. Maybe there's a reason why a highway was never built between them, they just don't matter that much to each other. I say we move on....... like why did Rein's open in West Springfield of all places instead of returning to Hartford?

[jcrc]

so are you saying that hartford is less of a city because it's one of the poorest in the country? if that were the case, all those corporations there that many of you pride yourselves on would not be there and much of the development going on there would not be happening. providence has a large population below the poverty line. larger than i am happy about, but that's how it is. but taht's not stopping all these restaurant chains from opening up here rather than somewhere like seekonk (only 3 miles away) or warwick (suburban hell).

i do agree with you that plenty of business travelers and convention-goers do seek out local dining options... but the majority of them (which is what i'm talking about) do not.

Nope. I am saying business depending on disposable income such as retail and food are very unlikely to invest in City of Hartford if they use demographic and statistic to make their decision. They'd rather go to West Hartford or malls. It's just safer, and it is the exact senario in Hartfore and surrounding areas today. The (real estate) developments in Hartford you are talking about are mostly subsidized by public sector hoping to jump start the economy. I highly doubt city of Hartford or State of CT will give money and subsidies to national restaruant chains so that they will building their places in Hartford. So far no one is knocking over each other over prime location in Hartford 21. That in itself should give you an indication how hard it is to market Hartford to national chains. Until Hartford is a proven market like Providence, only the daring souls or those who know the market are willing to risk their money.

[runawayjim]

Nope. I am saying business depending on disposable income such as retail and food are very unlikely to invest in City of Hartford if they use demographic and statistic to make their decision. They'd rather go to West Hartford or malls. It's just safer, and it is the exact senario in Hartfore and surrounding areas today. The (real estate) developments in Hartford you are talking about are mostly subsidized by public sector hoping to jump start the economy. I highly doubt city of Hartford or State of CT will give money and subsidies to national restaruant chains so that they will building their places in Hartford. So far no one is knocking over each other over prime location in Hartford 21. That in itself should give you an indication how hard it is to market Hartford to national chains. Until Hartford is a proven market like Providence, only the daring souls or those who know the market are willing to risk their money.

you're forgetting the large amounts of people who work in hartford. those people are included in the stats that restaurants use because many of those people have dinner in the city before going home. or they go to those restaurants for lunch. and let's not forget the conventions...

[grock]

Check out the Courant today. Morton's says convention business is brisk and sales are up 25% this year.

Business is so good, they are thinking of adding outdoor dining overlooking the Old State House.

[Cotuit]

Until Hartford is a proven market like Providence, only the daring souls or those who know the market are willing to risk their money.

That's why Front Street is so vital. Arguably, without the mall, we wouldn't be seeing the growth in Providence we're seeing now. The state subsidized the mall making it possible to get major brands into the city. We've had years of success with the mall, and now we're seeing the brands spread out of the mall. The mall tied to Providence's convention center and they fed off each other, just as Front Street will do in Hartford. You don't need to subsidize the brands, just their landlords.

[brick]

You are lumping business travelers and conventioneers into one homogeneous monotonous group of automatons that dine at chains only for safety and time. That is simply not the case. Plenty of them rely on local recommendations for their dinning and clubbing.

the demographics are relevant to convention organizers though, which is part of the point. If you are a convention organizer based in Walla Walla you aren't going to recognize The Mill Tavern or Big Fish when you book Providence, you are going to recognize the national high end chains. Also, having *been* a business traveller for many years, I can tell you that yes indeed there are plenty of times where when you roll into a city and you want a decent steak you just go to the local Morton's/Ruth's Chris, et al or you stop at Legal Seafood or what-have-you.

Chains make their money for a reason, and it's not just because local places don't avertise enough. One great thing about a free market economy is that really poor business models generally get punished pretty quickly in the marketplace.

I don't quite get the whole anathema to chains. Sure they might not be your thing and sure real foodies typically prefer local spots. but the not so subtle suggestion that most regular people who like to go to chains are somehow the unwashed filth of society is nothing but elitist or provincial bluster.

[jcrc]

you're forgetting the large amounts of people who work in hartford. those people are included in the stats that restaurants use because many of those people have dinner in the city before going home. or they go to those restaurants for lunch. and let's not forget the conventions...

You mean the same people that are causing traffic jams at 5 PM? Trust me all retailers in Hartfod are struggling to get these 70K+ high pay humanity into their shops. If on any given day .5% of them visit a single food establishment, that is 350 people, that establishment is considered a runaway success. Alas, more often than not, most don't get that .5%.

[blackstone]

Oh of course you know everything, after all you're in LA now. Give me a break, get out and talk to people who know food, Providence has a reputation. Being a small city of course you aren't going to hear about it from random people walking down the street in major cities, but the people who make food their business know Providence. You sir are absurd.

Sounds like sour grapes to me. Why can't you just admit that Providence has a great restaurant scene? It is most certainly a model Hartford can look to among other similar sized cities.

who would agree easily with someone that says and thinks that providence has a better "restaurant scene" (whatever exactly that means) than boston. boston is known for its restaurants. providence is known for something i am sure, but no one believes or agrees with your initial statement. if you are not going to retract it and admit that you went overboard, then you will get resistance on any restaurant opinion you have.

[runawayjim]

who would agree easily with someone that says and thinks that providence has a better "restaurant scene" (whatever exactly that means) than boston. boston is known for its restaurants. providence is known for something i am sure, but no one believes or agrees with your initial statement. if you are not going to retract it and admit that you went overboard, then you will get resistance on any restaurant opinion you have.

just what restaurants is boston known for? i'm really curious. surely not the north end, because any italian in providence (aside from maybe the pastry shops) can beat any of boston's north end (mike's is the exception). don't even get me started on legal seafoods, which is mediocre and overpriced.

[ctman987]

Front Street in my opnion can be become a smaller version of what Times Square in NYC city is and what the Inner Harbor is in Baltimore. Baltimore has done wonders over the last 30 years to bring back its waterfront. There are now new office towers, hotels, a convention center, shops, restaurants, a science center, an aquarium, stadiums and the USS Costellation Museum. With this in mind there are other parts of Baltimore that go unmentioned but are truly amazing like Fells Point and Mt Vernon but there are also gritty parts of Baltimore. There is still a max exodus from the city at the end of the day and now all the visitors are concentrated to the Inner Harbor and forget about that fact that 8 blocks north is the Mt Vernon Cultural District which has museums, historic buildings, parks, monuments and restaurants.

What I am trying to say is we should use Front Street to draw a certain number of national chains...not so many that they will hurt other city restaurants though. Front Street should also bring places that there arent very many of in Hartford. There are no Capital Grilles or PF Changs for example and bring that Ruth Chris downtown. This can serve as a place where conventioneers and suburbanites who are trying the city again can visit and then hopefully move onto to the rest of downtown but we dont want a situation where everyone goes to Front Street and forgets about the Old State House, Wadsworth, Civic Center, Trumbull St, Asylum St and Asylum Hill

[Cotuit]

boston is known for its restaurants.

Boston is not known for it's restaurants.

but no one believes or agrees with your initial statement.

Plenty of people do, you are simply ignorant.

if you are not going to retract it and admit that you went overboard, then you will get resistance on any restaurant opinion you have.

I'm not going to retract anything, and if you continue being snitty toward a moderator you will get resistance in your ability to remain a member of this forum.

[Luca Brasi]

Wow. The whole Providence thing again...

Anyway... I can't imagine going to an interesting city for the first time and seeking out the nearest Ruby Tuesday's for dinner. I ALWAYS look for local places and try to sample local cuisines.

[jcrc]

the demographics are relevant to convention organizers though, which is part of the point. If you are a convention organizer based in Walla Walla you aren't going to recognize The Mill Tavern or Big Fish when you book Providence, you are going to recognize the national high end chains. Also, having *been* a business traveller for many years, I can tell you that yes indeed there are plenty of times where when you roll into a city and you want a decent steak you just go to the local Morton's/Ruth's Chris, et al or you stop at Legal Seafood or what-have-you.

I am not sure what is the point here. I was talking about national chains base their restaurant opening decision on stats and Hartford's demographic profile is not favorable in the eyes of corporate site selectors. I said nothing about convention organizers.

Chains make their money for a reason, and it's not just because local places don't avertise enough. One great thing about a free market economy is that really poor business models generally get punished pretty quickly in the marketplace.

I don't quite get the whole anathema to chains. Sure they might not be your thing and sure real foodies typically prefer local spots. but the not so subtle suggestion that most regular people who like to go to chains are somehow the unwashed filth of society is nothing but elitist or provincial bluster.

hmmm...what? Where did I say that? You having *been* a business traveller for many years means you are a sample size of one. I am *still* a business traveller, and I too and a sample size of one, and I usually seek out indies. Nowhere did I say I am cleaner than you are.

Look, when a large convention is in town, any town, most restaurants are busy, national chains or indies. If there is a convention everyday in Hartford, then we will have a much bigger restaurant /night life, and Front Street would be built in no time. But that is not how it is. The other great thing about free market economy is that it is driven by reality. People vote by their pocket book, and so far, only one national restaurant chain - Morton, voted on having a shop in downtown Hartford. It is a vote of no confident by rest of the national chains. More local people vote to eat and shop at West Hartford, that too is a vote of no confident. I wish that is not the way, but that is the reality. I have nothing against national chains, I just don't think they are coming to City of Hartford en mass anytime soon.

[runawayjim]

Wow. The whole Providence thing again...

Anyway... I can't imagine going to an interesting city for the first time and seeking out the nearest Ruby Tuesday's for dinner. I ALWAYS look for local places and try to sample local cuisines.

nobody said anything about ruby tuesday, chilis, fridays, etc. the chains in discussion are high end chains that you can't find just anywhere.

[jcrc]

just what restaurants is boston known for? i'm really curious. surely not the north end, because any italian in providence (aside from maybe the pastry shops) can beat any of boston's north end (mike's is the exception). don't even get me started on legal seafoods, which is mediocre and overpriced.

Seeing I have being branded a food elitist...Lydia Shire and Jasper White are two nationally known chefs that have places in Boston. Ming Tsai has a place in Boston suburb of Wellesley.