Downtown Raleigh's Future

[raleightransplant]

This is one question where everyone has a different answer, but I'm curious.

What do you think will be the future of Raleigh? Are we bound for great things downtown? Will Raleigh reach out and claim the distinction as the heart of the Triangle (more than it currently is)? After spending some time downtown this weekend, I do believe the area is going to truly bust out. I think people are starving for this, and I can see Glenwood South getting more vertical and merging with the existing CBD (which will grow as well in the coming years).

Here's how I see it:

Working against it, I see a reluctance of the city to dream big and really realize it's enormous potential. I do think the idea of Raleigh growing up is catching on however.

Going for it, I see existing historical neighborhoods that already give the city a certain fabric (Boylan Heights and Oakwood among them). With a champion for downtown, and some vision...amazing things ARE going to happen here. There is also a great push with the residential component, which is so essential.

Things I'd love to see:

-A greater mix of entertainment near Glenwood (a Vietnamese restaurant, a bookstore, record store, etc.) to avoid it becoming a yuppie-only area

-More of these free events downtown (giving people a chance to experience the city center who rarely go down there)

-Street level retail downtown (would be great to see near the Hudson area, which would merge nicely with City Market). Maybe some shops similar to what you see around Cameron Village for starters.

-Gentrification on Hillsborough St. This street could electrify as it is located near State, and could work as a gateway into downtown

[Justin6882]

I, too, believe downtown Raleigh has enormous potential and that potential will be realized within the next 10 years. (at least I hope so since I'm about to close on a condo downtown ) The area around the new convention center should really be an entertainment hub in the coming years. I think a theater would do nicely there, along with a more diverse selection of restaurants.

On GloSo...I agree about it being a yuppie haven, but for only being 5 or so years old, its doing damn well for itself. I think it will only get better. City Market will need to land a big time tenant for the former Greenshield's space to maintain its status downtown. I really hope some big building are built in the CBD to provide a visual stature to the city along with street level stuff for dining/entertaining. Here's to the next 10 years!

[atb4766]

This is one question where everyone has a different answer, but I'm curious.

What do you think will be the future of Raleigh? Are we bound for great things downtown? Will Raleigh reach out and claim the distinction as the heart of the Triangle (more than it currently is)? After spending some time downtown this weekend, I do believe the area is going to truly bust out. I think people are starving for this, and I can see Glenwood South getting more vertical and merging with the existing CBD (which will grow as well in the coming years).

Here's how I see it:

Working against it, I see a reluctance of the city to dream big and really realize it's enormous potential. I do think the idea of Raleigh growing up is catching on however.

Going for it, I see existing historical neighborhoods that already give the city a certain fabric (Boylan Heights and Oakwood among them). With a champion for downtown, and some vision...amazing things ARE going to happen here. There is also a great push with the residential component, which is so essential.

Things I'd love to see:

-A greater mix of entertainment near Glenwood (a Vietnamese restaurant, a bookstore, record store, etc.) to avoid it becoming a yuppie-only area

-More of these free events downtown (giving people a chance to experience the city center who rarely go down there)

-Street level retail downtown (would be great to see near the Hudson area, which would merge nicely with City Market). Maybe some shops similar to what you see around Cameron Village for starters.

-Gentrification on Hillsborough St. This street could electrify as it is located near State, and could work as a gateway into downtown

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think Raleigh will certainly get it's act together with the leadership of people like me and you speaking out and mayor meeker,but we must bring people to the table and not let folks make it downtown raleigh vs north raleigh this is the capitol city people need to get in step with progress or get the hell out the way!!! this is a area were Charlotte reallys kicks are butt they dream big!!

Edited May 11, 2005 by atb4766

[Jerseyman4]

Id say downtown has a good chance. While they are re-developing downtown, gentrify SE Raleigh a bit. This will help downtown by making it even safer, commuting time could be down to walking/biking/mass transit and give SE Raleigh less of an eyesoar than it already is.

[charlotte_bon_vivant]

I don't know about DT, but Raleigh has a great future ahead. Fo years now, everyone I know who has moved to NC, moved there over Charlotte. It's been "de rigeur" for all my hoity-toity NYC friends. Raleigh is just so much cooler, you know.

[blueize74]

Raleigh is just so much cooler, you know.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ouch - shouldn't have said that... Run for the hills!

[JunktionFET]

Ouch - shouldn't have said that...    Run for the hills!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Depending on where he is in Wake County, he won't have to run far

[charlotte_bon_vivant]

I was kidding! But that is what they say. It's trendy among certain NYers to move to Raleigh.

Um, I'm no he.

[JunktionFET]

Oops, sorry about that. These forums seem to be overwhelmingly male, so it was just a careless assumption on my part. It's nice to see female members here

[charlotte_bon_vivant]

Oops, sorry about that. These forums seem to be overwhelmingly male, so it was just a careless assumption on my part. It's nice to see female members here

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No problem. I can see how you'd make that mistake. It's good to be here. The discussions on this board are more intelligent and useful than on some other boards.

[Justin6882]

why bother

Edited May 11, 2005 by Justin6882

[blueize74]

See ya! - That guy needed to go. Completely uncalled for...

Edited May 11, 2005 by blueize74

[orulz]

Okay, if I can't reply to the post that got removed, I'll reply to this one:

Id say downtown has a good chance. While they are re-developing downtown, gentrify SE Raleigh a bit. This will help downtown by making it even safer, commuting time could be down to walking/biking/mass transit and give SE Raleigh less of an eyesoar than it already is.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I read this post and find it to smack of racism, classism, and to be just overall preposterous. At the very least, it shows a fear and lack of acceptance for that which is different from what you are used to.

Though I don't live there, I hear there's a great sense of community in SE Raleigh - more than just about anywhere else in town, in fact. By "gentrifying it up" you're basically squeezing these people out. Having a community (and that community's been there for a long time, mind you) is far, far better than having a sterile neighborhood full of rich, mostly white yuppies. Who would want that? That's boring and stupid. That's Cary.

Edited May 11, 2005 by orulz

[blueize74]

I think the term gentrification has been stigmatized. I've heard this term my whole life and it has never dealt with a specific race - I'm not sure that was even intended. Southeast Raleigh has been known for crime and I believe the post was more intended of making note of it being an eyesoar anyway. Whether I agree with Jerseyman's assesment or not, many things did seem to be factually in order about what he said. Gentrification was mentiontioned before in this thread concerning Hillsborough Street and nothing was said.

[JunktionFET]

Wow. Let's take a step back and give someone the benefit of the doubt for a change.

I don't believe his point was to make it about race at all. In fact, only personal perceptions of race/crime/economic status would lead someone to interpret his statement that way

A very good friend of mine teaches at a school in that part of town and she has expressed some concerns about it. She doesn't feel like she is in danger by any means, but the kind of stuff her kids are exposed to and the way it affects them does concern her. You wouldn't believe the kinds of things these kids say and do. We're talking about kids who have barely hit puberty. It's crazy.

Crime is relatively high in that part of the city and so some kind of positive development should occur to help balance out the equation and give the residents more diverse exposure. You need to push out the bad element but not the regular everyday people.

[orulz]

I could be wrong, but I believe that the word "gentrification" has always involved uprooting people who call a neighborhood their home. The root word of gentrification is, of course, "gentry" which means the well-to-do.

In my mind, gentrification is what happens when locals are priced out of rentals, or can no longer afford to pay property taxes because their neighborhood becomes the "hottest new historical address." A neighborhood can be a great place to live without having each house immaculately restored with intricate landscaping and every old pane of glass replaced with brand new double-paned casements.

Gentrification and cleaning up a high-crime area are two completely different things. Gentrifying a neighborhood, to me, means moving it upscale - and doing that without pricing out the locals is not possible.

Edited May 11, 2005 by orulz

[dubone]

I wish he'd joined the conversation in a positive way, as I would like to understand why it would be bad for south east raleigh to gentrified.

charlotte's first ward is gentrified, and there are more poor blacks living here than in the days that it was a public housing project. I'm not sure i am ready to believe that certain racial groups are, by definition, not included in the "gentry". In first ward, many of the "gentry" are black professionals (i know the most expensive property on my block, 20k more than my place, is owned by a single black mom). There is a phenomenon of the black diaspora returning to the south to invest and reestablish southern roots after their families left the south over the last century.

Even more hard to believe, is that non-"gentry" blacks do not prefer to live in an area with lower crime, economic health and aesthetic surroundings. charlotte's first ward and other gentrified communities seem to support the idea that a racially and economic diversified community can raise the social and economic standings of the lower classes (which in nc, usa is typically poor blacks).

Most ethnic whites moved from poverty to having a solid middle class nest egg half a century ago through home appreciations. blacks were left out then (bad), but not now. in my belief system, neighborhood revitalization and appreciation is the most significant way to END the poverty-race correlation around here.

[peaceloveunderstanding]

charlotte's first ward is gentrified, and there are more poor blacks living here than in the days that it was a public housing

Where do they live in first ward? It looks all new too me.

Edited May 12, 2005 by moonshield

[dubone]

a significant percentage of units in first ward are subsidized. It was rebuilt in the late 90s with hope vi grant money. The premise of that whole clinton program is this: tear down blighted public housing, rebuild as attractive mixed income apartments with quality and amenities suiting for the middle class, subsidize many units, and sell surrounding land to gentrify the surroudning area. The result: a racially and economically diverse community where poor learn to live like middle class, their kids don't grow up with a ghetto/inferiority complex, store owners that used to sell bail bonds um can sell bail bonds to bankers...

The median household income last year in first ward charlotte ws $28,000. There are quite a number poor for that to be a median income (almost half of the city's median)

[orulz]

On further reflection I think I owe an apology to Jersyman4 for making an assumption about the motivations for his statement rather than clarifying things first.

The statement that caught my eye was the thing about calling S.E. Raleigh an eyesore. Yeah, it's a poorer part of town, and yes there are houses that need a paint job or some yard work, but a neighborhood where every house is not beautiful can still be a good place to live. Such houses exist in everyneighborhood. A lot of people live in Southeast Raleigh; it's their home. There certainly are some unpleasant folks living in the neighborhood, but again- there are unpleasant folks in every neighborhood; it's just a matter of degree. The overwhelming majority of people in S.E. Raleigh are hard-working, decent folks. To simply call this entire section of town an "eyesore" goes over the line to me.

Jerseyman4: After sleeping on it, I realize that my mistake was neglecting to ask exactly what you meant by "eyesore" and asking how you would propose that the city/neighborhood go about this "gentrification."

So, here goes: I'm sorry.

Anyway, I think this is definitely an important topic to talk about, although it belongs in a different thread. Some of the less well-off neighborhoods in town certainly do have a crime problem, and while Hope VI does a great job competition for Hope VI grants is extremely intense. Money from the government like Hope VI, as well as grants from non-profits, is difficult to obtain in amounts that can make a meaningful difference, and things will only get harder under the Bush administration. What other options do these neighborhoods have?

[charlotte_bon_vivant]

The premise of that whole clinton program is this: tear down blighted public housing, rebuild as attractive mixed income apartments with quality and amenities suiting for the middle class, subsidize many units, and sell surrounding land to gentrify the surroudning area.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That wasn't the premise of Hope VI grants. The grants were originally designed to rebuild public housing. It was Renee Glover and Tom Cousins who came up with the idea to replace them with mixed income developments (through public/private partnerships). Other cities followed suit since their program was so successful. In truth, the program only serves to relocate certian poor people not really changing demographics. Anyway...

Gentrification is less about race and more about class. There is a racial connection since most poor people living in the city tend to be black. And for the most part, it's grassroots. How can you stop people from taking over poor neighborhoods and forcing the displacement of its residents. You can't.

I've lived in a gentrified nighborhood. I didn't feel good about it because I knew my presence was causing the resisdents more harm than good. But, what can you do???

[dubone]

I've lived in a gentrified nighborhood. I didn't feel good about it because I knew my presence was causing the resisdents more harm than good. But, what can you do???

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How is that so?

I know you aren't saying this, but the extrapolated result of keeping poor in their neighborhood and rich in theirs is the ghetto effect that exists in the US, especially in the last 50 years. In my view, that situation has had the effect of reducing social mobility (ie. the ability to become middle class), especially for certain racial groups. I'd like to understand why (to put it succinctly) it is bad for poor people to live near middle class+.

On hope iv, i'm sure it has evolved, but now that the program evolved to include mixed-income, that is the premise.

I am of the opinion that there should be no poor neighborhoods in cities in america. There should be no quadrants of town that are only for poor people. With that goal in mind, i believe "gentrification" and/or 'white flight reversal'is good. the key to this, however, is that it must be combined with homeownership aid for poor people, public housing projects that are financially self-sustaining (mixed income apartment communities), programs to prevent major property tax increases for poor home owners, aid for small business owners. When people with money live by people without money, there are more opportunities for win-win situations whereby the poor people will be helped, employed, and friends with people with money.

That is how it works in many other parts of the world, and how it has worked in much of world history.

[charlotte_bon_vivant]

How is that so?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's because gentrification doesn't solve the problems of the poor. In this country, it only serves to displace them from their homes. My being there doesn't help them. Meanwhile, they are forced to move to another neighborhood with similar or worse conditions than what they faced before.

I agree that we shouldn't polarize neighborhoods based on race, class or any -ism for that matter. I agree taht mixed income neighborhoods are the ideal. But that isn't what happens. People like me move in. We see short period of mixed income households residing there. Eventually, it becomes a middle class neighborhood. Look at Virginia-Highlands in Atlanta. That neighborhood is almost fully upper middle class now with the previous residents gone due to high property taxes. (Yes, I know Vi-Hi was once a white neighborhood. That is beside the point.)

I want there to be some sort of solution to the problems facing poor neighborhoods, but I doubt that gentrification is that solution.

P.S. I only made the Hope VI correction because the Clinton Administrationw as given the credit for it. I realize that is what the Hope VI program has become -- or was -- before the last round of funding cuts.

[ChiefJoJo]

Um, can we get back to what your vision is for Raleigh?

I see Raleigh as poised for growth... educated residents, good climate, good location, receation, healthcare, jobs, etc.

I think the big shift that needs to happen is to a smart growth type of development in support of transit and current city services--rather than sprawl. I see that DT is changing rapidly with all the new condo projects, Blount St, Conv Ctr, hotel, Fay St mall, then pedestrian networks, etc. I feel like we will soon land a new HQ for a top company DT, which would be a great boost for our economy and jobs for DT. As DT goes, so goes Raleigh, and I can't wait to see what happens!

[Mike1]

I don't know about DT, but Raleigh has a great future ahead. Fo years now, everyone I know who has moved to NC, moved there over Charlotte. It's been "de rigeur" for all my hoity-toity NYC friends. Raleigh is just so much cooler, you know.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Girly, why do you believe more people have picked Raliegh over Charlotte? We are trying to pick between the two to move. We have visited both in the past year and are going back the last week of June to see Raleigh and Charlotte again.