Downtown Raleigh's Future

[Jones_]

Fifth-Third Bank has announced that they are planning an aggressive push into the Triangle and that they are going to be locating a regional HQ in downtown Raleigh:

http://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/print-edition/2012/03/09/fifth-third-plots-strong-growth-plans.html

Bumping this....any new news?

[Green_man]

I thought I remember hearing pretty definitive news that 5/3 was interested in Charter Square but they didn't want enough space to warrant signage at the top of the building and also that CBRE had not locked in enough other tenants to push forward with the project. 

 

Other news, I saw that Toshiba Global Commerce Solutions is looking for 200,000 sq feet to get out from under the IBM umbrella - would be nice if they moved to downtown but seems much more likely that they will find or build space in RTP.  They could be the catalyst that would get Charter Square off the ground.

 

Apparently its tough to find large chunks of office space in the area - hence the demand for another tower at North Hills East.  Anyone know the status of the SECU building leased space? 

[orulz]

Toshiba GCS needs a huge amount of lab space which doesn't really make sense for a downtown tower. Undoubtedly they will stay in the RTP area.

[Green_man]

Side Note:  I think each of these discussions need to happen in the forum set up for each - instead of this catch all "downtown future" thread.  Maybe one of the Moderators can move each response to where it needs to go?

 

CityOfOaksNative, welcome!  One major thing to note is that this building is the South tower of Charter Square.  There is still room for the North tower that could house more office space / residential - but probably a mix.

 

And yes, great news about Ipreo and I was wondering where they would go as well.  They would be here sooner than Charter Square is finished, but I'm sure could find some temporary space if that's where they wanted to be in the long run.  I think the SECU tower could be another option.  Or possibly the old Wachovia building that is being renovated?  Hopefully more companies see the benefits of a downtown location - I'm tired of all the sprawl campus developments popping up in Cary, RTP, etc...

[Green_man]

The spaces remaining for "big" projects would be sites mostly along Salisbury such as the Berkley block and a tear down of the existing Marriott parking deck. 

 

Where is the Berkeley block on Salisbury?  I don't think the Marriott has a parking deck.

 

I think one of the key locations for big projects will be the N&O block if they ever try to consolidate all their space into a single building with a smaller footprint (to adapt to the changing marketplace of news agencies: smaller, more technologically-based).  Maybe even build a new printing facility at the old Salvation Army on Moore Square?

[Justin6882]

What about the huge lot next to the convention center where Enterprise is - I think 2-3 buildings at least could fit there.

[Jones_]

Oops, I messed up....Berkley block is of course between Dawson and McDowell. I also meant the Sheraton parking deck....never post when half asleep...

[RALNATIVE]

I just read and interesting article which talks about how the city's efforts to invest in technology are paying off:

 

http://www.govtech.com/education/Raleigh-Driving-Economic-Growth-through-Technology.html

[Justin6882]

City council is reviewing the Residence Inn project on the block between the Duke Energy Center and the Convention Center.  Looks like they're looking to have an 11 story hotel with a rooftop bar and ground floor retail.

 

http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/01/27/3569740/council-to-review-hotel-deal-next.html

Also, the NewRaleigh folks tweeted Publix yesterday and they responded they are actively looking for sites for a downtown grocery.  Great news! Let the location speculation begin!

[Rufus]

There was also a mention of a possible hotel at McDowell and Davie.  I believe this was speculated a few months ago, but I don't live in Raleigh anymore, so I am not fully up to date.

[orulz]

This is exciting about Publix looking downtown. However, I wonder what Publix's definition of downtown will be. To some people, downtown Raleigh is anywhere inside the beltline.

 

My first choice would be to put this on the ground floor of a new mixed use building; the "West Apartments" buildings are big enough but I don't think current plans show enough retail space.

 

The only space I'm aware of in an existing building that's remotely close to the right size for a full service grocer are some of the Dillon Supply buildings in the warehouse district. The buildings west of West Street are owned by TTA, and the building to the east is still owned by Dillon. The Dillon block (Hargett/Martin/Harrington/West) is single story, 67,200 square feet - more than enough - and has some vacant land that could be used for a parking deck. If they could do it without the store having a terrible "back side" this would be an acceptable choice in my opinion.

 

The TTA block (Hargett/Martin/West/Railroad tracks, just south of Citrix) is partly two stories which might make converting the ground story to the wide open space a grocery store needs a bit more difficult. Parking would also be an issue here not to mention that this would be a great location for some development related to Union Station.

[Jones_]

Would the old Napper Tandys space be big enough? Not sure what a Publix size is. Loadign could be accomplished from the current small adjacent parking lot and there is plenty of actual customer parking across the street in the parking deck. Powerhouse Square seems like it'll never be a nightlife spot so I was thinking everyday living stuff might work. 

[Justin6882]

http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/01/28/3572457/land-sale-for-new-downtown-raleigh.html

There's a rendering of the new hotel in this story.

[RALNATIVE]

I'm still curious as to why they chose the Residence Inn brand over the Courtyard or Hilton Garden Inn. Residence Inns are typically geared towards extended stay business travelers. It may be a good fit though, seeing how Citrix and Red Hat can benefit from having contractors and out of town employees lodged there when they visit their downtown offices for temporary assignments.

[Euphorius]

http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/01/28/3572457/land-sale-for-new-downtown-raleigh.html

There's a rendering of the new hotel in this story.

Yet another boring box in shades of blend right in brown and assimilationist beige. Is there no hope for noteworthy architecture in Raleigh? What is it going to take to wake up the city council to the fact that we are building one of the most boring calling card pictures in our peer city group? I know I sound like such a buzz kill, but this is just disheartening. Do most cities go through this "let's let the developers build whatever boring box they want to" phase before the real architecture shows up? This is a complete 180 from Hatem's proposal.

Edited January 29, 2014 by Euphorius

[DPK]

http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/01/28/3572457/land-sale-for-new-downtown-raleigh.html

There's a rendering of the new hotel in this story.

 

 

Ugghhhh, that has got to be the most bland and uninteresting thing possible.  There is absolutely no character to that thing at all.  Seriously?  When is there a meeting I can go to and rant about this to give some feedback to some form of council/commission.  I'm just so tired of this crap.

[RALNATIVE]

I think that most of the architects and developers are still living in the 60's, when considering their building designs. This is what you get when you have a bunch of goofs running the show.

[Jones_]

When begging for a hotel you take what you can get. If we had developers clamoring for the vacant lots nearby then the City could pick what it thought best. As it is the City leveraged its property owner status to get functional items it wanted like retail space indoors and out. Our downtown growth, while steady, still isn't a runaway train. Until it is, or at least not until we get closer to running out of good spots to develop, we won't get things that are amazing to look at. 

[RALNATIVE]

When begging for a hotel you take what you can get. 

 

That is total BS. This is the flawed thinking that has many cities in a conundrum when it comes to economic and urban development.

 

If you demand better, you typically get better. It you accept whatever crap that someone decides to give you, people soon learn that they can run all over you. That's how life works.

 

The "take what you can get" mentality is what leads to mediocre cities that lag behind its peers economically and in many other ways.

 

A city like Raleigh, especially with all of the business buzz recently, should NOT be in a position of begging for a mid tier hotel. 

Edited January 30, 2014 by RALNATIVE

[NikOnder]

^^^ I agree, even in a city without the economic and urban growth Raleigh is experiencing, there should be a level of expectation for what is acceptable and not acceptable for the downtown core. That looks no different from any other non-descript hotel off the interstate in some Midwestern state.

 

Speaking of, I have been curious, and forgive me if this is common knowledge, but does the city have any future plans to extend the interstate through the downtown area? It seems to me with the recent influx of business and population that will surely follow, it will become a neccessity sooner than later. The structure of the interstate in the region currently seems like it was designed to service the suburbs.  Also, I'm sure this is a pipe dream, but does anyone think there is any chance the Hurricane's arena could be moved into the downtown area? Imagine how much that would have spurred development in the city if it had been located there to begin with.

[orulz]

Direct interstate access to downtown isn't all it's cut out to be. One of the cool things about downtown Raleigh is how it just blends into the neighborhoods in many directions, especially to the east, rather than being choked off by a freeway.

 

There was actually a plan back in the 1960s and 1970s to extend an expressway through on the east side of downtown. It would have run between East and Bloodworth, from the Hammond Road exit on I-40, and I think it was to link up with Capital Blvd somewhere near its intersection with Wake Forest Road. This explans why Hammond Road is so overbuilt near its interchange at I-40.

 

The plan was defeated in 1972 by the historic Oakwood neighborhood that the plan would have decimated. With it died the possibility of any freeway downtown. I for one am extremely glad that it died. 

 

I believe that the death of this plan brought about the birth of several alternative, less disruptive measures, all of which were built in the 1990s. Raleigh Blvd was created by realigning Rock Quarry Road and building a new road clear to I-440 and beyond. The Dawson/Mcdowell one-way pair was connected through to South Saunders street. Western Blvd and MLK were connected to each other around 1997 (yielding the partial cloverleaf interchange you now see at the bottom of the downtown "Money Shot." Atlantic Avenue was connected through to Wake Forest Road.

 

A couple of other ideas have rattled around over the years for new roads providing access in and out of downtown. Plans have been proposed connecting either South Street or West Street to Lake Wheeler Road, or extending Glenwood Ave to South Saunders Street, or connecting Hunt to Morgan near Central Prison. With the exception of a short reconnection of West between Martin and Cabarrus, none of these seem to be in the comprehensive plan anymore.

 

Not directly related to downtown, but serving as another bypass similar to Raleigh Boulevard, an extension of Six Forks from Atlantic to New Bern at Sunnybrook was also proposed but only the segment from Atlantic to Capital remains in the plan today.

[Euphorius]

If you demand better, you typically get better. It you accept whatever crap that someone decides to give you, people soon learn that they can run all over you. That's how life works.

 

The "take what you can get" mentality is what leads to mediocre cities that lag behind its peers economically and in many other ways.

 

Exactly! That mindset is what has left us with abominations like PNC Plaza and City Center Mariott. City council was so scared that the developers would run away if they demanded better architecture, and now we are stuck with those ugly buildings. They did defeat the humpback top on PNC Plaza, but what we got instead is a dunce cap. 

[Jones_]

Hey now fellas I'm just calling it like I see it not how I would play the cards I had. The fact is downtown Raleigh is short of rooms to match its convention space. I hate terrible architecture. But I do think this explains why we continue to get beige. Back when the space was open to RFP's you saw stuff like Lafayette. Maybe it needed to be opened to an RFP again....maybe this is the City could get after having gone out asking for someone to take them to the prom. 

[Euphorius]

Downtown is definitely lacking hotel rooms. This is not a bad hotel. It's just not a hotel that should be downtown. This is something that should be near 440 or 540.

[Spatula]

Exactly! That mindset is what has left us with abominations like PNC Plaza and City Center Mariott. City council was so scared that the developers would run away if they demanded better architecture, and now we are stuck with those ugly buildings. They did defeat the humpback top on PNC Plaza, but what we got instead is a dunce cap. 

'Abomination' is a pretty strong word for the PNC Plaza. I would strongly disagree with that. I was skeptical of the dunce cap at first but it's grown on me. The building itself looks good and downtown Raleigh looks vastly better with that building than without. VASTLY. I would also disagree that the city played a passive role in its planning... RBC Centura wanted to put their building in the Site 1 lot, and they wanted a building that was half the height of what we got. Raleigh nudged Highwoods into the old First Citizens lot and then nudged them into adding the residential section and gave us a better building for it.

 

The same could not be said about the Marriott, which I agree is an EIFS elephant that cheapifies the surrounding buildings and looks very bland. It's a bad convention center hotel. There isn't even a street-level connection with the convention center it supposedly serves! Surely they could have done that. The underground connection is fine and all but the ground level has poor access and the Fayetteville street front is lifeless and unfitting for the street. I can't sugarcoat that building.

 

This new hotel looks similarly suburban. It's not great but it's not as bad as the Marriott. If the beige stucco in the render were replaced with red brick it would be a good looking building actually. Maybe they could be coaxed into doing that... perhaps it's too late though.