Downtown Raleigh's Future

[DanRNC]

#2 is just a dud but why I am thinking this one will win out.

[orulz]

only the proposals that involve a grocery should be worth consideration

Disagree. None of the proposals involving a grocer allocate enough space to be a game changer, only 7ksf-10ksf.

 

I would rather see a full service chain grocer of, at least 30ksf, even if it doesn't happen for a year or two, and a permanent use in this building now, than a small grocer open here now and wind up closing when a bigger grocer opens up later. The last time we tried the small grocer downtown, it flopped. Twice.

 

To me this is far enough east that it doesn't need/shouldn't have an especially large retail component.

 

Not really sure which proposal speaks to me. Probably whichever one has the greatest residential density.

[Spatula]

Disagree. None of the proposals involving a grocer allocate enough space to be a game changer, only 7ksf-10ksf.

 

I would rather see a full service chain grocer of, at least 30ksf, even if it doesn't happen for a year or two, and a permanent use in this building now, than a small grocer open here now and wind up closing when a bigger grocer opens up later. The last time we tried the small grocer downtown, it flopped. Twice.

 

To me this is far enough east that it doesn't need/shouldn't have an especially large retail component.

 

Not really sure which proposal speaks to me. Probably whichever one has the greatest residential density.

 

Raleigh should have retail extending into the eastern neighborhoods. We don't yet have the transition to the east that we have to the west and northwest. Creating a wall of pure residential would permanently lock up the boundaries of downtown in that direction instead of leaving a porous membrane for future pedestrian activity. Partly I want to see the Moore Square district grow and expand to the east.

 

In regards to your points,

-There are a few thousand more bodies downtown than there were in 2007. And there will be a few thousand more in a couple years.

-Downtown Raleigh has never attempted an actual urban grocery within walking distance of the CBD. Seaboard Station is a car island on the northern edge of downtown. It serves downtown but it also kind of doesn't, at least not in the way that would suit a small grocery. Seaboard is a more logical place for a full-size store like you're talking about, and if such a development happened an existing small grocery on the border of east Raleigh would likely not affect it or be hurt by it.

-Considering the dearth of grocers in east Raleigh there is going to be demand.

[RALNATIVE]

I was down in the CBD this morning and realized just how busy downtown has become during a normal business day. I think that it's time that Raleigh needs to seriously think about expanded retail options, as well as another 4 or 5 star hotel downtown. It would be nice to see a Hyatt or Westin brand downtown. I recall mentioning this to Greg Sandreuter several years ago in relation to the Edison project and at the time he was in agreement.

[Euphorius]

Not really sure where to put this. It certainly doesn't deserve its own thread. KB Homes is building a new subdivision near downtown that they are calling Oakwood North. Supposedly they talked with neighbors and local real estate agents about what types of homes they would like to see in this project. Funny, all of the designs look like typical KB Homes crap that they build all over the place. They all have front loading garages. To me, that completely destroys any character the house may have had without it. They can invoke the name of historic neighborhoods all they want to, but their new subdivision is nothing more than a basic cookie cutter subdivision. 

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/blog/2014/03/construction-starts-on-new-oakwood-north.html?page=all

 

http://www.kbhome.com/new-homes-raleigh-durham/oakwood-north

Edited April 24, 2014 by Euphorius

[Jones_]

I thought it was pretty funny. They had to poll downtown realtors to see what people "downtown" wanted. When they heard, nicer finishes and stuff to that effect, there seemed to be surprise before they said they could provide that, above and beyond what they normally provide. I hope the City at least forces them to make all the street connections in that area that appear to have been planned for decades in some cases..State, Tonsler and Plainview.  

[DPK]

They can invoke the name of historic neighborhoods all they want to, but their new subdivision is nothing more than a basic cookie cutter subdivision.

 

I thought you were exaggerating, but then I viewed that one link.  You're right.  They are basically building one house with some minor design changes for each.  This isn't going to mesh well with that area at all and doesn't seem to be like something I'd personally want.

[InitialD]

Funny, all of the designs look like typical KB Homes crap that they build all over the place. They all have front loading garages. To me, that completely destroys any character the house may have had without it.

 

Pardon me, KB Homes, but do you offer any designs other than snout houses?

 

They look like they might be "mullet houses" too - Stone/brick/stucco in the front, vinyl siding on the sides and back.

Edited April 29, 2014 by InitialD

[Jones_]

So just recapping in my own head the current stuff in downtown proper (leaving out NC State and Cameron Village) that is out of the ground: Elan, Devon, Skyhouse, El, Charter Square I, Citrix, Carolina Ale House, Peace Street Townes and a substantial rehab of Boylan Pearce on Fayettville St. Imminent seem to be Marriott Residence, Link, Gramercy and the Edison Office and Apartment components. I think that despite the lack of major height, this current push is as big any other peak we've seen...

[Green_man]

Hmm, I had kinda assumed that Gramercy was cancelled... but looks like an approved permit was issued on 3/24/14 for mass grading on 0.8 acre.

 

And looks like the review process was started on 2/21/14 for the building permits.  By the way, here's the description:

 

 

CONSTRUCTION OF 6 STORY APARTMENT BUILDING WITH 5 FLOORS OF WOOD CONSTRUCTION ATOP A PODIUM CONTAINING RETAIL AND AMENITY USES AND 2 LEVELS OF PARKING BELOW THAT. THERE IS A TOTAL OF 203 ONE AND TWO BEDROOM APARTMENTS AND 10K ST OF RETAIL SPACE APP DEV PLAN S-64-11

 

The other projects that seem (or seemed) like they were imminent were Lincoln and the Embassy Suites across Davie St from the L.

[orulz]

About a week ago I browsed the building permits and found that the ones actively moving towards city approval and construction are Link, Gramercy, Stanhope Center, and FMW's 1301 Hillsborough. Edison Apartments had some permits submitted some months ago but no evidence of them being reviewed or approved yet.

[Jones_]

 Embassy Suites across Davie St from the L.

Somehow I missed this. Was it a TBJ article or something? I know several hotels in the area were casually mentioned but didn't realize anything beyond the rendered Marriott Residence was moving

[Euphorius]

I don't think this has been posted. It's the State of Downtown Raleigh 2013 report from the DRA. It's packed with cool stats about past, present and future developments. One of the most notable numbers is about the $ amount invested in projects. In 2013 more than half a billion dollars of projects were completed or under construction, and another half billion+ dollars of planned developments. It seems like we are in a bigger boom than the years just before the economy crashed. 

 

http://www.godowntownraleigh.com/_files/pdfs/stateofdowntownraleigh2013.pdf

[ctl]

Wow, in the process of outlining a plan to update state office buildings in downtown Raleigh, Governor McCrory went out of his way to criticize the Albemarle and Archdale buildings. Albemarle, the older of the two, will be gutted and rebuilt but Archdale would be razed.

 

http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/09/02/4117045/gov-pat-mccrory-floats-plan-to.html?sp=/99/100/&ihp=1

Edited September 3, 2014 by ctl

[Jones_]

I work in the Archdale and can say first hand that despite my liberal leanings, this administration is light years better at maintaining the space. I won't elaborate on why I think that's the case, but essentially entrenched people were not qualified for their jobs so nobody knew how much money there was actually was for things like maintenance. I would be absolutely thrilled if this took root. Many of my musings on downtown possibilities hinge on State government. I would hope that Peace Street gets a street fronting building to replace Archdale for instance. I'd even give the legislature a new office building west of the legislative building and connect it across Salisbury Street with an enclosed bridge and a built in parking garage. North Street could be brought over from West street, across the Capital wishbone and through the visitors parking garage all the way to Salisbury. My ideas never end in this area. 

[Spatula]

I'd be sad to lose the Archdale building, but I wouldn't shed a tear for many of the others in the state government complex--particularly the 80s buildings around Halifax Mall.

 

Those are probably the least objectionable opinions I've heard from McCrory since he's taken office. The general idea of converting the area back into actual city is a good one and I'd support it.

[Jones_]

To clarify my thoughts, I'd keep Archdale and have it connected to a wide building fronting Peace with diagonal bus parking (this would be the visitors entrance to the State complex) in an alley between the two and a glassed sky bridge at the second story of this new building and the ground floor of Archdale. I'd gut the ground floor of Archdale (make it a museum to former governors or something) and have a large walkway across the grass leading straight to the legislative building. Also I'd pull all of the cafes out the basements (there are 4 or so) and put them in a glass pavilion in the canter of Halifax Mall so visitors can all stop and eat at them and State employees would have a central area to congregate in. (*exhale*). This is what unchallenged State employees do. We dream big...in "if I won the lottery" terms. 

Edited September 3, 2014 by Jones_

[ctl]

I didn't live here in the mid-1970s, so I don't know what instructions were given to the architect who designed Archdale. My guess is that he was instructed to design an energy-efficient building, or what was understood as energy-efficient at the time. Ergo, minimal windows and a white west-facing wall. Archdale opened the same year that President Jimmy Carter made the speech that the energy crisis (which began in 1973) was the "moral equivalent of war". Similar thinking brought us the national 55 mph speed limit and federally-enforced limits on thermostat settings in all non-residential buildings. As time went on, people realized that in the heat of the moment they had gone too far, and some of the extreme measures were repealed. But the Archdale building couldn't be repealed. 

Edited September 3, 2014 by ctl

[InitialD]

I don't think the loss of the Archdale would be bad. I'd like to see that plot turned into part of a park space that open up the big grassy area, connecting it to Peace St. and adding some pedestrian amenities. I'd also raze that squat parking deck directly west of Archdale and working on getting a mixed-use midrise (with a new, smaller footprint parking deck in the rear) on Peace St. at Vaughn Ct. My goal would be to create an inviting, pedestrian friendly corridor connecting North Person with the Glenwood area.

 

Also, I wonder who owns the surface lot across from the Albemarle bldg at Salisbury and Lane? That's a good spot for a midrise, and a really great spot for a new tower/development is that full city block that is just a surface lot off the NE corner of the capital building.

Edited September 3, 2014 by InitialD

[InitialD]

I didn't live here in the mid-1970s, so I don't know what instructions were given to the architect who designed Archdale. My guess is that he was instructed to design an energy-efficient building, or what was understood as energy-efficient at the time. Ergo, minimal windows and a white west-facing wall. Archdale opened the same year that President Jimmy Carter made the speech that the energy crisis (which began in 1973) was the "moral equivalent of war". Similar thinking brought us the national 55 mph speed limit and federally-enforced limits on thermostat settings in all non-residential buildings. As time went on, people realized that in the heat of the moment they had gone too far, and some of the extreme measures were repealed. But the Archdale building couldn't be repealed. 

 

I always assumed the Archdale and government buildings were inspired by the Empire State complex in Albany. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empire_State_Plaza

[ctl]

Georgia's counterparts are the Floyd Towers across the street from their capitol. More windows than Archdale, but one tower partially shields the other from the sun. Not well-liked by state employees there. Does have a MARTA rail station in the basement, however. http://team.georgia.gov/employees-serving-proudly/the-james-h-sloppy-floyd-building/

 

Georgia had also built the Brutalist "ice cube" building, very similar to Archdale, in 1965 for the state archives. http://burnaway.org/the-fate-of-history-the-old-archives-building-is-under-review/ A sad outcome. 

[Jones_]

The parking lot at Lane and Salisbury is State of NC parking for the administration building facing Jones. My understanding of the whole State complex is it was inspired by the Albany NY design but dumbed down (thankfully if you see the full plan) by conservative budgeters. Archdale is a single shorter version (with some mods of course) of the 30 story set of four buildings flanking the Albany complex. http://www.city-data.com/articles/Empire-State-Plaza-Convention-Center.html#b

[RALNATIVE]

Highwoods has purchased the BOA tower downtown with plans to invest more in renovations. It's no secret that I have a great dislike for this building and am hoping that they do more than just renovate the interior.

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/blog/real-estate/2014/09/highwoods-to-invest-92m-in-downtown-raleigh-tower.html

Edited September 9, 2014 by RALNATIVE

[Euphorius]

The draft of the new downtown plan is online now. They have identified several new districts that are on the edges of existing districts. It seems like Sasaki just came in and told us what we already knew, that the existing districts need to be linked together. Look on the right side of the page about halfway down under the presentations section to find the download link for the Downtown Raleigh Draft Plan. http://www.raleighnc.gov/business/content/PlanUrbanDesign/Articles/DowntownPlan.html

[Green_man]

I like a lot of their ideas, but they show the Berkeley block of Nash Square as mega development of mid-rise office/residential.  I think this block would be better suited to keep renovating the existing buildings and maybe some small-scale infill developments.