Downtown Raleigh's Future

[CHGuy]

Highwoods is buying the Edison Office building site from Beacon.  Apperently, Beacon could never get financing to build the Edison Office building.  Highwoods is looking at building a 300,000 SF 21 story office building.  They must have someone interested in new office space downtown as I cant imagine them doing this on spec.

[RaleighHeelsfan]

Highwoods? Ugh...expect something bland.

 

1 hour ago, CHGuy said:

Highwoods is buying the Edison Office building site from Beacon.  Apperently, Beacon could never get financing to build the Edison Office building.  Highwoods is looking at building a 300,000 SF 21 story office building.  They must have someone interested in new office space downtown as I cant imagine them doing this on spec.

 

[Tenkai]

Article in the N&O about the purchase:

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/business/article93496002.html

[Jones_]

1) No immediate plans

2) [implied] 7.7M for 0.7 acres!!

[Tenkai]

Preliminary site review for Smokey Hollow has popped up:

http://gsa.raleighnc.gov/smb/ptlprdapp1/PTLPRD/PlanDev/Documents/DevServ/DevPlans/Reviews/2016/SiteReview/SR-053-16.pdf

[KJHburg]

wouldn't one think this could be a possible expansion for Red Hat? That would be my guess and Beacon is very busy here in the Charlotte area with millions and I mean millions of square feet of warehouse space and some intown office buildings. 

[RALNATIVE]

I see the need for prime office space increasing substantially in the next few years, and with the vacancy rate being so low, it's only a matter of time before we see more proposed towers planned to accommodate the expected growth.

As I've pointed out many times, whenever developers like Sandreuter and Hatem propose anything above 10-15 stories for downtown, it should raise eyebrows. This Edison project is just another example of why the city should be skeptical of their ability to deliver high rise developments.

[orulz]

I think good transit is essential to the growth of downtown. I can see some corporation thinking "Hmm, what about downtown Raleigh?" and then looking at a map and seeing no freeways and no fixed transit, and then thinking "But how will my employees get there? Scratch that, let's have another look at (North Hills/Cary/RTP/Durham/Atlanta)."

Charlotte has freeways heading in four different directions from uptown, and light rail heading in one (soon to be two) directions. The best route into downtown Raleigh, South Saunders, is a pretty good route, but as a six lane arterial with several stoplights, it still has just a fraction of the capacity of a freeway. I for one am glad that downtown Raleigh is not torn up by freeways, but if we want it to grow, we have to be sure that the access question is clearly and decisively answered.

Conventional traffic engineering solutions such as widening and even arterial grade separarions can get us partway there. Some existing vehicular access routes are not yet built out to their maximum potential - like Lake Wheeler, Western Blvd, and New Bern Ave. No freeways means other solutions such as managed lanes are not possible. Given the physical realities of the already limited spare rush hour road capacity, and how few options there are for improvement without disastrous neighborhood impacts, we could probably get up to maybe 20% more vehicles into downtown in a given rush hour and that's about it.

More high density residential in and around the CBD is another part of the solution. But even if somehow you manage to curtail suburban expansion and focus all future development inside the beltline, the Triangle already has a massive amount of suburban housing stock and to simply abandon it is neither likely nor good for the environment. Suburban growth will continue. But if it is managed appropriately and balanced with infill, it will help to create a good future for the region.

Therefore, in the long run, the heavy lifting of downtown Raleigh's growth has to be enabled by transit. And for it to be an effective tool in recruiting companies to locate in the CBD it has to be genuinely useful to everyone. I do believe that BRT can do the job but it can't be cut-rate BRT-lite that abandons its dedicated lanes through tight spots. In order to serve as a recruiting tool for corporate relocations and expansions, it has to be efficient, effective, and well-patronized. I also believe that the current transit plan is a little light on rail improvements. GIven the recent decline in bulk freight traffic such as coal, I'd like to see a clearer plan for utilizing the existing rail rights-of-way in all directions and with all-day frequency - maybe not right away, but at some time in the future. We need to see how the currently proposed commuter line can grow in to a regional rail system.

[RALNATIVE]

Wahlburgers coming to downtown:

http://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/blog/real-estate/2016/09/hollywood-a-lister-mark-wahlberg-bringing-reality.html

 

[RALNATIVE]

First Tennessee just announced that they will be moving their mid-Atlantic HQ to Raleigh from Winston-Salem. I've got to think that they may be considering office space downtown. Depending on when the move happens, this could be an opportunity to drive construction of one of the planned towers downtown. Just thinking out loud.

[Jones_]

I was just about to ask if anyone who hasn't exceeded their 3 article limit per 30 days, or who subscribes to TBJ could enlighten us on the First Tennessee situation. So i guess no info on where exactly? Any info on how much space they currently occupy in Winston? They seem big on downtown Raleigh and I know have financed Citrix and the El apartments off the top of my head. Seems like I saw their sign on another project in that area too but it escapes me...anyway thanks. 

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

Hi all, 

First Tennessee bank bought Raleigh based Trust Atlantic Bank. The T.A.B. HQ was located at the intersection of Glenwood & Creedmoor rd across from Crabtree Valley mall in Raleigh. And from what I read in TBJ they plan on moving the Mid-Atlantic HQ into that same five story building. Sorry downtown, no more bank HQ's, only bank branches! 

Can you tell that I am a little bitter about loosing bank after bank to either NH's or other out of state banks? :-(

Dowtown Raleigh needs business diversity and no matter what you think of banks their HQ requires larger amounts of office space with logo options (read usually taller buildings)

I just don't want downtown Raleigh to be the next downtown Detroit...no offense intended, again just venting. Goodnight Raleigh! :-)

[Jones_]

Well since First Tennessee loves downtown Raleigh I'm holding out a sliver of hope they'll eventually look to make their way down here. 

Raleigh's job base downtown is diverse enough to never end up being Detroit like should any one industry take a hit....Detroit had so many people dependent on a single low skill manufacturing industry, that it sticks out. NC had similar results in textile towns but instead of a million people moving out, perhaps 1000 did per town out of a town of say 3,000. So don't worry about downtown Raleigh. Even if jobs pulled out, residents and the need to live, will keep it going as long as the jobs stayed in the local area, like NH. 

[Green_man]

The 3 story building next to Mecca that current has ground floor real estate office, residence 2nd/3rd floors will be adding two floors above to expand the residence.  Very cool!

https://www.raleighagenda.com/4308/martin-street-downtown-getting-new-apartments-well-one-big-one/

[Jones_]

Pretty Cool. Good way to keep historic structures viable economically and still retain their integrity. A similar thing was done to the Mahler Building with Hatem's condo.

As an aside, the article is wrong about the building's age....I can say with certainty it is older than 116 years because it shows up on the 1884 Sanborn map...all 4 buildings in that grouping do actually...the one adjacent to Wilmington St actually already has had a 3rd floor added in the 1980's, that caused the basement supports to buckle...I got to go inside and see the repair job once. 

As another aside if anyone ever went inside Quality Grocery and saw a picture of a tiny grocery Store called Dughi it's location was 235 Fayetteville St and is also see on this 1884 Sanborn map. 

Edited September 30, 2016 by Jones_

[RALNATIVE]

I was contacted today by one of the top real estate agents ITB to gage my interest in a condo in the tower that will be built at the N&O site. Apparently the info has not been made public, but the tower will be somewhere between 30-40 stories. Not sure if that is all condos or mixed use.

[Green_man]

Interesting on 1) height! and 2) for sale condos!

Here's a website I found for the developer.  Very generic, no specific info yet... http://www.lodenproperties.com/#intro

 

[RiverwoodCLT]

It will be interesting to see what happens at Observer site.  High rise condos at 30 to 40 stories will  very high in cost and hard to Finance.  The last high rise condo tower in Charlotte had be switch over to apartments.  There has not been a high rise condo tower built since then.   The latest The Brevard  30 stores was cancel due to poor sells.

I am not saying a 30 t0 40 story condo tower can not be built in downtown Raleigh,  but I question do they have enough buyers to fill  it up.  Good luck

 

[DPK]

2 hours ago, RiverwoodCLT said:

It will be interesting to see what happens at Observer site.  High rise condos at 30 to 40 stories will  very high in cost and hard to Finance.  The last high rise condo tower in Charlotte had be switch over to apartments.  There has not been a high rise condo tower built since then.   The latest The Brevard  30 stores was cancel due to poor sells.

I am not saying a 30 t0 40 story condo tower can not be built in downtown Raleigh,  but I question do they have enough buyers to fill  it up.  Good luck

 

Definitely a tough call on that fer sure.  I'm leaning on the side of them being able to though.  I feel like there is indeed a pocket of demand for condos in downtown Raleigh.  Just from my personal viewpoint all I have been really seeing the past few years has been apartments this, apartments that, apartments here, apartments there.  The price point though is what will make/break it.

The only thing I could be sure of is they won't be something "Joe Average" would be able to afford.

[Jones_]

How often do condos get combined with a hotel? Maybe you do a hotel for over 50% (would finance the building with a firm commitment I think) of the building then tack on some condos on top...? My current understanding of the condo finance market is that a bank will only finance up to 50% of a building and only finance an individual condo at 80% of appraised value (among other things like HOA budget must have 10% capital set-aside etc.). Correct me if I am wrong folks, but my time as a condo HOA president taught me that...iirc

[RiverwoodCLT]

There are 67  Skye Condos in 2nd ward along with the Hyatt Place Hotel and Fahrenheit Restaurant on top. 22 stories.

Completed in 2013,  a long story with this one, I want go into.

http://www.skyecondos.com/amenities/?page=lobby

 

You have to be careful buying into a new condo high rise. When 210 Trade Condos went on the market people were standing in line to buy a condo.  The builder went up 2 floor and went broke and all those people lost their money.  It is now hard to get finance to build high rise condos.  That is why 1 Brevard  Condos in Charlotte closed shop because they could not get enough buyers.

 

 

Edited November 7, 2016 by RiverwoodCLT

[Jones_]

That sounds like the builder was using the ernest money and his limited funds on hand to get started while still working on bank or angel investors to close the gap. I was thinking a hotel's firm commitment would cause the bank or private investors to fall in line and make it to complete a building...

[RiverwoodCLT]

39 minutes ago, Jones_ said:

That sounds like the builder was using the ernest money and his limited funds on hand to get started while still working on bank or angel investors to close the gap. I was thinking a hotel's firm commitment would cause the bank or private investors to fall in line and make it to complete a building...

It was not pretty for about 4 years. 

[RaleighHeelsfan]

Maybe it will be like PNC (RBC) building...office and condo?

Is the land only big enough for one tower? Seems kind of small from the front side.

[Jones_]

3 hours ago, RaleighHeelsfan said:

Maybe it will be like PNC (RBC) building...office and condo?

Is the land only big enough for one tower? Seems kind of small from the front side.

The one article I read said the existing N&O office space on the SE corner of the lot would be renovated to modern class A and rented out. Not sure if that includes the warehouse portion of that building or not. That would seem to leave the foot print of the parking deck, the older office space facing Nash Square and the parking lot/former Park Hotel site on the SW corner of the block. My very subjective thought is that one building takes up the entire Nash Square frontage and another faces Salisbury St, but the possibilities are endless of course...As long as there is no surface parking or curb cuts for anything other than a parking deck entrance (incorporated deck of course), I'll be happy. 

A super nice residential building with floor to ceiling windows and big balconies facing Nash Square (facing the sunset) sounds nice to me, with perhaps an office tower on Salisbury St.