Downtown Raleigh's Future

[Green_man]

Downtown Soccer Stadium Alert!:  RailHawks have a big announcement on December 6 that they've been teasing with a countdown for like 20 days.  Well, turns out the press release was posted on their app a few days too early.

https://twitter.com/RailHawksNow/status/804703317192540160

Highlights:

• RailHawks team is rebranding as "North Carolina FC" (eh, kinda boring name)
• New logo takes cues from the state flag but kinda looks like the Texas flag to me.
• Club aims for MLS franchise in the near future (based on a market analysis study conducted).
• Club owner will outline plans for new 20,000+ seat stadium.
• Plan to launch a women's pro team in the NWSL.

Stadium location still unknown at this point, but multiple sources have connected dots that MLS prefers downtown stadiums and the announcement event is being held in downtown Raleigh, so there seems to be the indication of the general area.

[Jones_]

So I've not put my heart much into downtown stadium discussions because I thought it was too far fetched given all the factors....but if we ended up with an MLS franchise downtown I would buy season tickets. Absolutely! I can walk. I'm a lifetime soccer player and fan. And, well, yes, that would be awesome in every way. 

[Green_man]

My speculation for the stadium site:  Red Hat amphitheater block + close Lenoir St and gravel lot to the south.  400' East-West width is tight and would likely only allow an upper level on one side (west side to maintain downtown and shimmer wall views).  900' North-South length is plenty, so likely upper levels at both north and south ends to get to the 20,000 seats.  Could have a easy setup to still host concerts in the stadium.  

City seems to already have prepared for this somewhat by converting South St to two-way traffic to allow for closing Lenoir at this block.  And pursuing BRT along Wilmington to Garner and Wake Forest Rd.  Rail platform station could be built on commuter rail line to be used on gamedays with extended hours or special trains.  Tons of parking decks in this area.

Closest to major thoroughfares Western, MLK, S. Saunders... I-40.

[Jones_]

Seems like a reasonable setup. Normally I don't like closing downtown roads but the SW corner will survive well (and access to Lake Wheeler Rd) with South Street I think. 

[orulz]

I am not a fan of closing downtown streets in the first place. Making superblocks is for the 1970s. But I would be really, really opposed to closing Lenoir! That is one of very few low-traffic neighborhood streets that crosses downtown from a neighborhood on one side to a neighborhood on the other. Streets like this are REALLY important for bicycle and pedestrian connectivity. Any sort of deal to close a street without any public discussion would seriously piss me off.

I am also not a fan of putting stadiums right in the center of downtown. Stadiums are dead space most of the time; somewhere on the periphery would be much better. There are plenty of such locations that are in private hands; hopefully that is what they will be announcing.

[InitialD]

Dix Soccer fields would be my guess.

[orulz]

Dix soccer fields is a really problematic spot because it's built on top of an old city landfill. I'm pretty sure that any construction there would have to dig all the old garbage out and replace it with clean, stable fill. If they can do that, then I'm all for it, but I think it's likely that this corner of Dix is likely to remain as-is for the forseeable future.

Elsewhere on Dix wouldn't be a terrible choice. Connectivity to downtown and parking are an issue but there are ways to address that. However, any deal to put a stadium there now would completely short-circuit the nascent master planning process and would probably ruffle more than a few feathers.

 

[InitialD]

Not downtown but I imagine the city would be interested in redeveloping Walnut Creek. I just hope the proposal isn't somewhere in the north Raleigh hinterlands

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

The Walnut Creek property looks large enough for a stadium but then you would loose a lot of parking. You would have to be very creative and do a new master plan, which may be cheaper in the long run than starting from scratch in downtown Raleigh?

[InitialD]

8 possible locations being looked at, no hint at where. 

Anyway, in other news, The Edison office site at SE corner of Martin and Wilmington is getting demolition. So a project on that site might not entirely be dead.  http://raleighpublicrecord.org/news/development-beat/2016/12/06/development-beat-teardown-tuesday-34/

[Green_man]

New 10-story Exploris school and office building proposed at 120 Kindley Street with integral parking deck.  Plus a note for "future connection to bike/ped overpass" over MLK Blvd approx. lining up with Fayetteville St.

(Site Review Plan SR-099-16)

Raleigh HQ revised their expansion site plan to 3 stories from their previous proposal for 5 floors.  So hopefully moving forward with that!

Edited December 6, 2016 by Green_man

[Green_man]

RE:  Potential soccer stadium sites: The Wake County GSA block in Glenwood South would be a decent size with a realigned Harrington St. starting at the West @ North condo building to the new Johnson Street connection.  Biggest drawback is that it is not very close to the proposed BRT line - but I think the planning is still pretty early for that so maybe it could be rerouted?  (Very close to the old proposed LRT, but sadly that ship has sailed.)

[InitialD]

Demolition at The Edison site: 

[InitialD]

http://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/news/2016/12/07/high-rise-developer-buys-hillsborough-street-block.html

Cary real estate developer Gregg Sandreuter, who has been a partner in the development of the 23-story Skyhouse Raleigh apartments, Edison Lofts mid-rise and future Edison office site in downtown Raleigh, has assumed control of a one-acre city block at Hillsborough, Harrington and West streets.

Sandreuter confirms that he has formed a partnership to buy the site, but he wouldn’t disclose what his plans are yet for the property. He did note that the property, only a few blocks from the Capitol, has been zoned by the city for mixed-use development of up to 20 stories high."

[Jones_]

Any idea if they were palating any architectural pieces from those buildings, especially Isaacs? Window panes, interior elements likely survived to some degree. Gotta love how something thats been there since 1877 is just "eff it" to some or most people...

Other historic structures about to be lost without intervention of some sort:

20 houses or so near Maiden Lane

NC Equipment Company

Delta Chi mansion + two others near Gorman

Hicks Mansion

Fate of Broom and Mattress factory or Caswell is unclear. 

[Green_man]

19 hours ago, InitialD said:

http://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/news/2016/12/07/high-rise-developer-buys-hillsborough-street-block.html

Cary real estate developer Gregg Sandreuter, who has been a partner in the development of the 23-story Skyhouse Raleigh apartments, Edison Lofts mid-rise and future Edison office site in downtown Raleigh, has assumed control of a one-acre city block at Hillsborough, Harrington and West streets.

Sandreuter confirms that he has formed a partnership to buy the site, but he wouldn’t disclose what his plans are yet for the property. He did note that the property, only a few blocks from the Capitol, has been zoned by the city for mixed-use development of up to 20 stories high."

Hmmm, just some speculation, but what if Sandreuter is trying for another Skyhouse development?  The tower would fit on the eastern half of the block.  The air rights purchased for the powerhouse parking deck could be to add more parking levels for the Skyhouse residents.  And this would allow for the old grocery store to be renovated.

I wouldn't be opposed to another Skyhouse this far away from the current one.  And would be nice to add a blue-glassed high-rise to this area of downtown.

[InitialD]

45 minutes ago, Green_man said:

Hmmm, just some speculation, but what if Sandreuter is trying for another Skyhouse development?  The tower would fit on the eastern half of the block.  The air rights purchased for the powerhouse parking deck could be to add more parking levels for the Skyhouse residents.  And this would allow for the old grocery store to be renovated.

I wouldn't be opposed to another Skyhouse this far away from the current one.  And would be nice to add a blue-glassed high-rise to this area of downtown.

 

I wonder why they didn't make two Skyhouses at once like Charlotte did? Are the Edison apartments by the same person? It would have made sense to make another Skyhouse on the other side of that parking deck (the same set up as Skyhouse I and II in Charlotte) then they would have had two lots for Edison office towers or whatnot. 

Anyway, if they want to make Skyhouse here, there a couple of different designs of Skyhouses so they could put a different top on it (the Charlotte skyhouses have a square top while Raleigh's is rounded). 

Also, I'm not exactly sure how air rights work? Does this mean they want to build a higher parking deck there? In some cities you can buy air rights and add them on to the height of your building (e.g. 20 floors plus another 18 that the other lot isn't using). Probably doesn't apply here.

[Jones_]

Skyhouse was not really a Sandreuter project....somehow he just happened to own land they wanted to build on. I'm not sure who approached who first, but having visited Charlotte, Atlanta(midtown) and Austin Skyhouses, the Raleigh site fits the Skyhouse approach to a "T"....namely they piggyback on an area's hype, push up on an established/older low rise neighborhood, and build away. They are not trail blazers by taking a chance on an unproven market, nor do they give a flip about the existing character of an area. Obviously I don't like them but what I am saying is I lean towards they contacted Sandreuter.....regardless, they are perfect bedfellows. 

Anyway, interesting ideas Green Man. I'd not considered that Sandreuter wasn't going to just mow down the whole block...since PowerHouse Square, he has not shown any interest in preservation. The parking deck in question is poured concrete and likely could support quite a bit more on top of it. It'd be an innovative approach to getting more occupied space downtown that'd be in favor of, if thats the route they went (as opposed to just adding more parking levels). I also think its time for that deck to incorporate retail space facing West...its a tad below grade, but I think they can make it happen should they want to. 

Air rights essentially mean you're allowing a different owner above a structure or parcel you own. Ground leases and air rights are essentially the same scenario from my limited reading, but in the first case the building touching the ground isn't owned by the parcel owner, and in the second case it most likely is. 

I personally think this block should try and transition the older buildings west of it, to the newer stuff rising on the east with some highrise replica victorian apartments with nice bay windows and balconies like so:

[Pack52]

Looking a google's satellite view, this stadium spot seems like a good one to me, unless there are complications with the site.  Pretty sure its on one of the proposed BRT lines to Garner as well...

https://www.google.com/maps/place/201+Penmarc+Dr,+Raleigh,+NC+27603/@35.757106,-78.6500757,745m/data=!3m2!1e3!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x89ac5f8f87707f4b:0x1c25e35fcf3b5783!8m2!3d35.757106!4d-78.647887

I'd personally like it closer to downtown, but its not all that far out.

Edited December 9, 2016 by Pack52

[Merthecat]

My vote goes toward tearing down Central Prison and building a stadium (either baseball if we could bring in the Mudcats, or the MLS team) and park complex.  Plus, it could be connected to a future park/greenway system I'd like to place around Union Station.

[ctl]

15 hours ago, Merthecat said:

My vote goes toward tearing down Central Prison...

Dream on. Closing Central Prison would require at least half a billion dollars of new construction elsewhere.

[JeffC]

re: soccer stadium, I've heard North HIlls mentioned as a site...but where in the world in NOrth Hills is there enough land to build an athletics facility of that size.  And without it's own interchange with 440, the traffic in that area (already bad) would become a #$%^ nightmare...

[InitialD]

13 minutes ago, JeffC said:

re: soccer stadium, I've heard North HIlls mentioned as a site...but where in the world in NOrth Hills is there enough land to build an athletics facility of that size.  And without it's own interchange with 440, the traffic in that area (already bad) would become a #$%^ nightmare...

Only site I can think of is the parcels of land held by a trust between North Hills and Wake Forest Rd along St Albans. Thinking about the traffic is nightmare fuel and would give me one more reason to avoid North Hills.

[JeffC]

2 minutes ago, InitialD said:

Only site I can think of is the parcels of land held by a trust between North Hills and Wake Forest Rd along St Albans. Thinking about the traffic is nightmare fuel and would give me one more reason to avoid North Hills.

That parcel is big enough, but allowing anyone to build a stadium there without a 440 interchange should be grounds for immediate removal from office for any public official who approves such a scheme.  I'm fairly sure the upper middle class neighborhoods in Quail Hollow and along Hardimont (just north of that parcel) will fight this tooth and nail.  Plus there is a blue line stream (Big Branch) running right through the middle of the parcel and given that the city's spent millions remediating and preventing flooding upstream from there, more impervious surfaces along that creek would probably cause significant impacts downstream (particularly since Big Branch dumps into Crabtree Creek behind all those auto dealerships along Wake Forest Road that always flood whenever we have more than 3 inches of rain in a day...

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

I will throw this wrench into the mix...they will build the new soccer stadium next to Carter-Finley Stadium...;-)