Downtown Raleigh's Future

[Green_man]

Likeliest spot for a 30+ floor tower is the remaining Edison lot now owned by Highwoods.  They are by far the most accomplished developer that is associated with downtown Raleigh right now.  Maybe a drawback of this location is it that much of the building would be hidden from certain angles. 

[Scotchman]

Maybe Mechanics & Farmers Bank could work a deal to get their name on top, make them look like a big bank.

50 minutes ago, Merthecat said:

I think that after this hotel's location, the next best spot for a skyline-changing building (the 4th pillar, as I term it) would be around the intersection of E. Hargett and Wilmington.  The only problems are that the most vacant lot is rather small (although that could certainly force more height into a building) and that any other sites would take away a lot of street retail.  The best location in my opinion would be the Mechanics & Farmers Bank lot.

 

[Green_man]

Waiting around for the MLS stadium renderings to come out... kinda hoping for the Red Hat amphitheater site.  About the same size as the DC United site (see picture for overlay).  Could have public plazas along Cabarrus & South street with 1 or 2 retail kiosks similar to City Plaza.  Could have one corner of the stadium easily convertible to a stage so that concerts can still happen (like Chicago & Dallas MLS stadiums).  Plenty of parking nearby.  Plenty of proposed hotels.  BRT stations 2-3 blocks away.  Maximizes use of this site by maintaining existing concerts while adding more activity.    Biggest drawbacks would be closing Lenoir street and slightly blocking the shimmer wall (although maybe the design could lower the east side as much as possible).

 

Edited January 19, 2017 by Green_man

[Jones_]

2 hours ago, Merthecat said:

I think that after this hotel's location, the next best spot for a skyline-changing building (the 4th pillar, as I term it) would be around the intersection of E. Hargett and Wilmington.  The only problems are that the most vacant lot is rather small (although that could certainly force more height into a building) and that any other sites would take away a lot of street retail.  The best location in my opinion would be the Mechanics & Farmers Bank lot.

That lot could use something (the other corners need left alone as that is all the commercial historic fabric we have outside of the Briggs cluster), but I had envisioned like an 8 story highly mod looking residential building. Something like this. I wouldn't be against tearing out the Alexander Parking deck and going tall there either but I know since that cast shadows on the Capitol it gets extra scrutiny there. 

[orulz]

On 1/19/2017 at 2:18 PM, Green_man said:

Waiting around for the MLS stadium renderings to come out... kinda hoping for the Red Hat amphitheater site.  About the same size as the DC United site (see picture for overlay).  Could have public plazas along Cabarrus & South street with 1 or 2 retail kiosks similar to City Plaza.  Could have one corner of the stadium easily convertible to a stage so that concerts can still happen (like Chicago & Dallas MLS stadiums).  Plenty of parking nearby.  Plenty of proposed hotels.  BRT stations 2-3 blocks away.  Maximizes use of this site by maintaining existing concerts while adding more activity.    Biggest drawbacks would be closing Lenoir street and slightly blocking the shimmer wall (although maybe the design could lower the east side as much as possible).

 

Gotta say this is very well done... but I really hate the location. In my opinion, losing Lenoir as a through street is a non-starter. I hope the city agrees with me on this one. Tunneling Lenoir under the stadium doesn't really do it for me either. Expensive, and who wants to walk or bike through a tunnel under a stadium.

Here are my proposed locations. All of them in the same general area (southwest quadrant of downtown). I think these are big enough for a stadium without sacrificing the street grid. They're not *quite* in the thick of things like your suggestion but at the same time I'd rather see a spot that central get developed with something that gets used 365 days a year rather than 30.

Map here

[Jones_]

Heritage Park continues to make the most sense to me. However it is fraught with negative impacts to affordable housing. In a sort of triple entendre here is a three prong scenario I dreamed up:

MLS/other stadium goes at Heritage Park site

21C (or other)redevelops Sir Walter

City turns parking lots in front of Duke Energy Center into a semi active green space

NC Association of Educators site gets redeveloped with Street facing commercial development like a Walgreens and Verizon Store and City Housing Authority Townhouses and apartments like at Halifax facing street and back into the site, and a good sized senior housing center (thereby offsetting losses at Heritage Park and Sir Walter). Net gains include, green space for the City that complements the housing authority site, particularly the seniors who may have limited mobility and can't go far to get some fresh air. City and particularly senior citizen access to a pharmacy (currently CVS and Sir Walter support each other in this regard), improved urban form along South Street, and of course a stadium site on the edge of downtown, the most agreeable setup among this forum it seems. Sir Walter gets to used for its historical purpose and its tax value goes way up (helping offset City costs at NC Educators site a smidge). Also the Exploris recreational facilities could be available for the Housing Authority. 

Edit: oopsie, four prongs actually. 

Edited January 21, 2017 by Jones_

[Green_man]

On 1/20/2017 at 8:40 PM, orulz said:

Here are my proposed locations. 

Map here

The Gateway site (Kindley St) would be big enough for a hockey/basketball arena, but not a soccer stadium.  Same with Clancy & Theys' site.  Cargill is not close enough to downtown to take advantage of existing parking, restaraunts, shopping, etc.  Would require massive parking decks and surrounding development.  Likely costs the owner is not prepared for.

Heritage Park also makes the most sense to me.  And I think the radio silence from the Malik kinda hints at this in that he is trying to make sure the presentation of the proposal is done as best as possible to avoid as much negative publicity.  But yes, Heritage Park should also be a non-starter without a firm nearby relocation plan for current residents.  I kinda like the 'Arbor House' in Bronx for 320 W South St.

[orulz]

Heritage Park is one- and two-story wood frame and brick veneer/vinyl construction. If they've ever been significantly renovated I can't find evidence of it online; if they're still pretty much as-built, then they are certainly nearing an age where some significant money would need to be spent on renovations just to keep them livable. Given the low density I have to assume that redevelopment is likely in the short term. Rather than wishing on a star for a hope VI grant that will probably never come, a partnership that brings a soccer stadium and a higher-density mixed use development would probably be welcome by RHA, as long as it includes full replacement of all affordable units.

[orulz]

I think the Clancy & Theys site could be made to work if you demapped Dupont Circle and used some of the properties to the west of it. As mentioned before, I think that closing Lenoir should be an absolute nonstarter in my book, since it is one of very few local roads that goes clear across downtown from neighborhoods on the easat to neighborhoods on the west, and even has a grade separation at the railroad. But closing Dupont Circle, which adds little in terms of connectivity since it's not really part of the grid, would be a reasonable sacrifice IMO. Made the area on the Google Map bigger to reflect this.

link here.

[Green_man]

Maybe another stadium possibility would be the Wake County GSA block near Glenwood South (401 Capital Blvd).  Straighten Harrington St. to the west slightly and there is room.  Extend Tucker St. to Harrington and Johnson St. is already planned to be connected.

[InitialD]

17 hours ago, Green_man said:

Maybe another stadium possibility would be the Wake County GSA block near Glenwood South (401 Capital Blvd).  Straighten Harrington St. to the west slightly and there is room.  Extend Tucker St. to Harrington and Johnson St. is already planned to be connected.

Or just east of Capital Blvd north of Peace if Pigeon house creek wasn't in the way. I think N West St north of Peace is redeveloping and will continue to do so.

[orulz]

Not really a fan of the Pigeon House Branch/Devereaux Meadows site. I think that should be a park, due to flooding issues and the Capital Blvd corridor plan. But there are definitely a couple possibilities near there on the north side of DT.

First, the Wake GSA block mentioned by Green_man. East of Capital, south of Peace, and west of the CSX RR would be another possibility.

Either of these northern sites would probably only be possible if the parking decks for the state's office buildings just across the railroad tracks could double as stadium parking. Seems like a no brainer since it would generate some nice parking revenue for the state as well. Those decks, which are horribly underutilized during evenings and weekends, have literally thousands of spaces. No new parking would be needed at all. However, given that any such plan would have to go through the legislature, I wouldn't get my hopes up.

So. The list of sites that orulz likes for a downtown soccer stadium has grown to six... two on the north, four on the south.

All but Cargill could probably go up without any new parking, since there are enough parking decks within a few blocks to mostly handle it. The northern sites would probably be better for gameday experience due to the proximity of Glenwood South. The southern sites offer somewhat better regional connectivity since they are closer to I-40, and better synergy with existing facilities like the Convention Center.

The site south of Peace, east of Capital, and west of the CSX RR might have the least potential for redevelopment, since it is essentially hemmed in between a freeway and a railroad. So maybe that's my pick? You'd have to buy some land from CSX including their turntable to make it happen, though.

 

[Tenkai]

Put a bunch of bleachers on the state buildings and slap the pitch in the middle of Halifax Mall.

[InitialD]

4 hours ago, orulz said:

 

Either of these northern sites would probably only be possible if the parking decks for the state's office buildings just across the railroad tracks could double as stadium parking. Seems like a no brainer since it would generate some nice parking revenue for the state as well. Those decks, which are horribly underutilized during evenings and weekends, have literally thousands of spaces. No new parking would be needed at all. However, given that any such plan would have to go through the legislature, I wouldn't get my hopes up.

 

Those decks are open to the public after 5pm and are currently free parking then and weekends.

The site between CSX and Capital seems too small and only the north side of it would be able to get in and out. 

 

Kindly is too small too and also only one way in or out plus there's a 10 floor building planned there.

Heritage might be a good spot but there would have to be a plan in place to build new housing elsewhere. 

[orulz]

Thanks for the info about the State parking decks. Never had occasion to park there. Probably they could start charging for games and people would pay.

For any of the downtown sites, I would plan on there being very little need for vehicular access to the stadium site itself due to little or no onsite parking.

I agree the Capital/CSX site is a bit small. Length is not a problem but it's only about 400' wide. Most soccer stadiums that I can find on Google Maps seem to be closer to 450' wide. 450' x 550' seems to be a typical dimension. Would take a minimum-dimension field and compact bleacher design. Pedestrian bridges could provide access from Glenwood South and the State Parking deck. All the complications add up to make this a rather unlikely spot.

[plus2]

The Charlotte City Council just put the breaks on Charlotte's MLS bid. Good news for Raleigh.

[Green_man]

http://www.si.com/planet-futbol/mls-expansion-prospective-cities-bids-28-teams?sdf#planet-futbol/2017/01/27/mls-expansion-city-raleigh-north-carolina-fc-steve-malik

Gensler is the architect hired to design the new NCFC MLS stadium!

Quote about the stadium location:  

He wouldn’t identify the three locations, but said, “We have urban options that appeal to millennials and are accessible to suburban soccer families.”

One was described as an “urban setting” that Malik liked to Seattle or Portland, where fans can walk to the game from nearby restaurants or bars. Another was a bit further out and “right off the highway … more of the Sporting KC model,” he said.

[InitialD]

Hilton Garden:

Courtyard Marriott:

 

[RiverwoodCLT]

Expansion Tracker: 12 ownership groups submit MLS expansion applications

link: http://www.mlssoccer.com/topic/expansion/2017/expansion-cities-bids

[Green_man]

SOM has been selected to design the new Municipal Civic Tower & City Hall at Nash Sq.  SOM was also the designer of One World Trade Center (Freedom Tower) in NYC.  www.som.com

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/counties/wake-county/raleigh-report-blog/article131013059.html

[Justin6882]

And an updated on the MLS team, New Raleigh posted on Twitter that three options were rumored:

1)expansion at Wake Med

2) North Hills

3) Downtown Durham 

[Isaac]

^he also posted that downtown Raleigh is an option

[ctl]

3 hours ago, Green_man said:

SOM has been selected to design the new Municipal Civic Tower & City Hall at Nash Sq. 

Will be interesting to see whether this building generates the same controversy as the proposed Lightner Center did. My guess is, it won't.

[InitialD]

14 hours ago, ctl said:

Will be interesting to see whether this building generates the same controversy as the proposed Lightner Center did. My guess is, it won't.

Where will it be built? Are they talking about tearing it down and rebuilding? That whole block hot garbage. If I could wave a magic wand, I'd have them raze the whole block (saving the trees) and rebuild the deck with ground floor retail on the Morgan and McDowell side of the block - those two stretches are just terrible - nothing but blank walls on either side of the street. 

[Green_man]

1 hour ago, InitialD said:

Where will it be built? Are they talking about tearing it down and rebuilding? That whole block hot garbage. If I could wave a magic wand, I'd have them raze the whole block (saving the trees) and rebuild the deck with ground floor retail on the Morgan and McDowell side of the block - those two stretches are just terrible - nothing but blank walls on either side of the street. 

Might result in a shorter building with a larger footprint rather than a taller building on a smaller site plan, but I agree, it would be better for street presence.  I believe the cost estimate is around $90-100 million so seems like the existing parking garage is not included?