Downtown Raleigh's Future

[KJHburg]

4 hours ago, DanRNC said:

Capital Realty Group appear to be modern day slum lords specializing in government-subsidized housing - far from a win for Raleigh.  

It is better than trying to find all those seniors on limited incomes a place to live in an ever increasingly expensive Raleigh.  

[DanRNC]

The more I hear about this project, the more bizarre it appears. Only Raleigh could pull something this boneheaded off.

[KJHburg]

23 hours ago, DanRNC said:

The more I hear about this project, the more bizarre it appears. Only Raleigh could pull something this boneheaded off.

amazing

[KJHburg]

from a Triangle Business Journal article subscriber

Triangle developer Loden Properties has acquired the former Days Inn at 300 N. Dawson St. and a neighboring parcel for $6.5 million, with plans to convert the half-century-old building into a 57-room hotel.  Called the Longleaf Hotel, renovations at the building will pay homage to its mid-century modern design, according to Loden Properties.

 

If anyone can take a picture of this existing motel as I can not picture it.  This is a great plan and these retro motels are the in thing now look at the one in downtown Durham the Unscripted I think is the name. 

[JeffC]

22 minutes ago, KJHburg said:

from a Triangle Business Journal article subscriber

Triangle developer Loden Properties has acquired the former Days Inn at 300 N. Dawson St. and a neighboring parcel for $6.5 million, with plans to convert the half-century-old building into a 57-room hotel.  Called the Longleaf Hotel, renovations at the building will pay homage to its mid-century modern design, according to Loden Properties.

 

If anyone can take a picture of this existing motel as I can not picture it.  This is a great plan and these retro motels are the in thing now look at the one in downtown Durham the Unscripted I think is the name. 

THis is the old fleabag motel at the corner of Lane and Dawson/McDowell.  Last thing on the left before you pass Babylon heading north out of downtown.  Noticed the construction fence up earlier this week.   That restaurant has been at least four different things over the last 10 years, none of which made it.  Was a sub place for the longest and most successful run.

[JeffC]

here is the n&O article on the Days Inn replacement:

https://www.newsobserver.com/news/business/article224297220.html

[ctl]

Meanwhile, the well-connected Steve Stroud has hired former Hurricane Ron Francis. Although RF may deal in general commercial real estate, I suspect this is really aimed at a DTR arena... deliciously ironic because one of the streets around PNC was named E. Stephen Stroud Way. 

[Jones_]

On 1/11/2019 at 4:01 PM, KJHburg said:

from a Triangle Business Journal article subscriber

Triangle developer Loden Properties has acquired the former Days Inn at 300 N. Dawson St. and a neighboring parcel for $6.5 million, with plans to convert the half-century-old building into a 57-room hotel.  Called the Longleaf Hotel, renovations at the building will pay homage to its mid-century modern design, according to Loden Properties.

 

If anyone can take a picture of this existing motel as I can not picture it.  This is a great plan and these retro motels are the in thing now look at the one in downtown Durham the Unscripted I think is the name. 

Here's the tax record and photos, including one from before its most recent renovation. I'm not sure when it was originally built but it doesn't really have that nice Rte 66 mid-mod or downtown Vegas look to it, even in the older picture. I've seen some wicked cool re-dos of old motor lodges though, so maybe they can pull it off. My fav is the Wall Street Suites in Bend Oregon which combined two old rooms into single larger suites. 

[ctl]

The Buildings tab on the tax record says the hotel was built in 1964.  I think it was a Travelodge at the start. See https://www.flickr.com/photos/edge_and_corner_wear/27592865141/

 

[KJHburg]

My thoughts on this removing the 5 story cap on 200 block of Fayetteville St would be if the historic building could be incorporated into any new construction why not have the taller building up to 40 stories in the back of the block along Salisbury or Wilmington St.

https://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/article230232699.html

[Jones_]

4 hours ago, KJHburg said:

My thoughts on this removing the 5 story cap on 200 block of Fayetteville St would be if the historic building could be incorporated into any new construction why not have the taller building up to 40 stories in the back of the block along Salisbury or Wilmington St.

https://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/article230232699.html

If you could building around and over the building, maybe, but mostly my response is hell no. Stronger than that really. some of those properties like Kimbrells and Big Easy are not even remotely historic and can do whatever they want but all the rest should be preserved, absolutely, even if that means the City is forced to buy them. This is a soulless, characterless city and to rip up the only block that has any of that left at all, is suicide. 

[Green_man]

I'd be fine with a new tower at 234 Fayetteville and if they could fit something at the Kimbrells/Big Easy plots, but otherwise, yea this block needs to be left alone.  I know the rezoning says to retain the Fayetteville St facades, but the rest of the buildings are also pretty important to the character too.

[Crabpeople]

We know the buildings in question were built in the 19th century, but what exactly about each of them actually makes them historic?  Is there anything memorable/specific the public is supposed to know or could know?  Is each of their architectural styles unique to their era that they should be preserved or is 'historic' simply based on being pre-1900?

[Jones_]

57 minutes ago, Crabpeople said:

We know the buildings in question were built in the 19th century, but what exactly about each of them actually makes them historic?  Is there anything memorable/specific the public is supposed to know or could know?  Is each of their architectural styles unique to their era that they should be preserved or is 'historic' simply based on being pre-1900?

I can't believe people ask this stuff with a straight face. Most of that block is Federally and locally listed Historic register stuff. Even if it wasn't, Raleigh has less than 5% of its commercials buildings left that were standing in 1900. That's it. The uniqueness is because everything else was destroyed with impunity. They were built with materials and techniques no longer in use or available. The character of the buildings is irreplaceable. Age nothwithstanding, there is plenty of reason to maintain small, flexible, retails paces and human scale buildings in any and every urban setting. Taller is just taller, and not demonstrably better on any front.  Go ahead and trot out some argument. You can build new crap anywhere. Like literally anywhere. Let me turn it around...what about this spot demands 40 stories? Nothing at all. How about we fix the suburbs and make some gridded streets with mixed use blocks and mixed use buildings out there instead of destroying historic blocks that already are perfectly laid out exactly as they are? Your way of posing these questions makes me very mad because it always is a teeing up of attempting to justify putting some glossy piece of crap in place of the rarest of rare. Raleigh has no culture, or soul now an had little back then. Few immigrants, very little pivotal or national level history (Lafayette, Henry Clay, and Grant's visit in 1865 few other little bits...), but it had some great local builders and architects. Thomas Briggs and Julius Lewis were two of them and both of their hardware stores are on this block. Their work is a good as the famous names that worked here (Jacob Holt, Richard Upjohn, William Percival et.al.). Even if you don't 'get' historical buildings there should be enough objective stuff here to buy into. 

[Crabpeople]

On 5/10/2019 at 11:30 PM, Jones_ said:

I can't believe people ask this stuff with a straight face. Most of that block is Federally and locally listed Historic register stuff. Even if it wasn't, Raleigh has less than 5% of its commercials buildings left that were standing in 1900. That's it. The uniqueness is because everything else was destroyed with impunity. They were built with materials and techniques no longer in use or available. The character of the buildings is irreplaceable. Age nothwithstanding, there is plenty of reason to maintain small, flexible, retails paces and human scale buildings in any and every urban setting. Taller is just taller, and not demonstrably better on any front.  Go ahead and trot out some argument. You can build new crap anywhere. Like literally anywhere. Let me turn it around...what about this spot demands 40 stories? Nothing at all. How about we fix the suburbs and make some gridded streets with mixed use blocks and mixed use buildings out there instead of destroying historic blocks that already are perfectly laid out exactly as they are? Your way of posing these questions makes me very mad because it always is a teeing up of attempting to justify putting some glossy piece of crap in place of the rarest of rare. Raleigh has no culture, or soul now an had little back then. Few immigrants, very little pivotal or national level history (Lafayette, Henry Clay, and Grant's visit in 1865 few other little bits...), but it had some great local builders and architects. Thomas Briggs and Julius Lewis were two of them and both of their hardware stores are on this block. Their work is a good as the famous names that worked here (Jacob Holt, Richard Upjohn, William Percival et.al.). Even if you don't 'get' historical buildings there should be enough objective stuff here to buy into. 

Thanks for the info.  I work in healthcare, not anything related to architecture or city planning.  I've wondered the reasons for buildings being labeled historic.  Also maybe try some yoga if you get wound up so easily about questions.  Ashwagandha is excellent at mellowing out too.

[ctl]

On 5/10/2019 at 11:30 PM, Jones_ said:

How about we fix the suburbs and make some gridded streets with mixed use blocks and mixed use buildings out there

Rhetoric aside, no chance. People in the suburbs don't want it, and  Raleigh has twice as many of them OTB than urbanists ITB.  Push them too far and they'll get the General Assembly to deannex them from Raleigh and then either incorporate as a new municipality or merge with Cary... although I suppose that's one way of resolving OTB/ITB tension. 

Edited May 14, 2019 by ctl

[Jones_]

21 hours ago, Crabpeople said:

Thanks for the info.  I work in healthcare, not anything related to architecture or city planning.  I've wondered the reasons for buildings being labeled historic.  Also maybe try some yoga if you get wound up so easily about questions.  Ashwagandha is excellent at mellowing out too.

I'm a regular at Blue Lotus. I learn to focus my energies more than worrying about mellowing. I have no intention of rolling over and accepting terrible outcomes when they are right there in my face. I look forward to your calm level headed support of historic preservation. 

[Jones_]

20 hours ago, ctl said:

Rhetoric aside, no chance. People in the suburbs don't want it, and  Raleigh has twice as many of them OTB than urbanists ITB.  Push them too far and they'll get the General Assembly to deannex them from Raleigh and then either incorporate as a new municipality or merge with Cary... although I suppose that's one way of resolving OTB/ITB tension. 

You know what planning in Raleigh amounts to? Just drawing a zoning map that matches what is already there. There are no road plans at all. They try to connect up a few things after the development has already happened. Streetscaping is about all we get here. Real planning would focus on what makes a city functional. A life tethered to cars, like my hero Edward Abbey states with the same ire I feel, is literally killing people, whether in instantaneous crashes or due to a life of sitting. The tax base in downtown has always subsidized the low density burbs so I say let them go. Sprawl is the enemy to virtually everything, with the environment, and your health being the two overarching umbrellas. It will absolutely use up this planet faster than if we lived efficiently. Government should be leading the way. I live on this planet and in this city too and  don't think I have to accept the wrecking of my immediate and of the larger environments I live in. 

[ctl]

Oh, let's not go through that again. What DTR tax base? So much of the DTR square footage is governmental and produces zero revenue for the City. Look, if the City didn't want the suburbs, they should quit annexing new parcels. It's still going on in northwest Wake and even across the line into Durham County. You've now got residents of the City who are closer to DTD than DTR.  If the City really believed this was a bad financial deal, they could stop it immediately. But they process those annexation requests -- all of which are voluntary -- without a thought.

Note that Cary's property tax rate is substantially lower than Raleigh's, although the services provided by both jurisdictions are essentially identical. And Cary has no downtown tax base to speak of. 

Like I said, the ideological split ITB and OTB may be unresolvable and perhaps the two groups should just go their separate ways... although Cary would become more populous than Raleigh if north Raleigh changes jurisdiction.

Edited May 16, 2019 by ctl

[KJHburg]

Good recap of downtown Raleigh development in the last quarter and also in the last few years and what is underway now.

https://www.downtownraleigh.org/_files/docs/dtr-econ-dev-1st-quarter-2019.pdf     from the Downtown Raleigh Alliance 

[UrbanLion]

Note:

Before you all start hating please hear me out, I've asked questions like this on other forums, but I figured I would try it here since you all seem to be fairly knowledgeable and involved with Raleigh's development. This question isn't so much about me, as it is about how we all describe Raleigh and what investments are wise to make in the area. Please respond in full descriptive answers so that I do not have to ask more answers. The reasons you should help me is:  #1 to be nice, I want to make sure I'm investing my life in the correct place.  #2 because I have an ear with an investor who is asking me if Raleigh is a good place to invest in. #3 A lot of people ask me if they should move here, I want to be able to give them a good answer. 

Urban Areas:

Sorry, But I do not really care that much of what happens in the suburbs. My main concern is the urban areas of Raleigh. I am starting to like living here more and more as time goes on and Raleigh becomes more urban, however being from Boston, Raleigh does lack some of the feels that Boston did. I have the opportunity to live anywhere in the country except California and New York City. I do not want Raleigh to be another Boston, but there is a lack of things to do comparatively, and there is also a lot of unused and dead space downtown. 

My Question

Will Raleigh's Downtown and Midtown Fill in so that there is more to do, There is a larger City Feel, and an even better downtown culture? (Please Answer using comparisons of Atlanta, Boston Etc, with a full explanation)

Will Raleigh's Public Transit and Rapid Transit ever get built so that it is easy to get around urban areas?  (I do not care about traffic) 

Will Raleigh ever get more recognition as a larger city so that the residents and City Council take the area seriously? 

Will any of these things happen, or be about to happen by 2021?  (My leave for another place date) 

I hope this is the right place to post this, I have been scouring news about development, but I don't know what to think of it all, and you all seem to have experience with it. Thanks. 

[Green_man]

Short answer is yes.

[nicholas]

2 hours ago, UrbanLion said:

Note:

Before you all start hating please hear me out, I've asked questions like this on other forums, but I figured I would try it here since you all seem to be fairly knowledgeable and involved with Raleigh's development. This question isn't so much about me, as it is about how we all describe Raleigh and what investments are wise to make in the area. Please respond in full descriptive answers so that I do not have to ask more answers. The reasons you should help me is:  #1 to be nice, I want to make sure I'm investing my life in the correct place.  #2 because I have an ear with an investor who is asking me if Raleigh is a good place to invest in. #3 A lot of people ask me if they should move here, I want to be able to give them a good answer. 

Urban Areas:

Sorry, But I do not really care that much of what happens in the suburbs. My main concern is the urban areas of Raleigh. I am starting to like living here more and more as time goes on and Raleigh becomes more urban, however being from Boston, Raleigh does lack some of the feels that Boston did. I have the opportunity to live anywhere in the country except California and New York City. I do not want Raleigh to be another Boston, but there is a lack of things to do comparatively, and there is also a lot of unused and dead space downtown. 

My Question

1 - Will Raleigh's Downtown and Midtown Fill in so that there is more to do, There is a larger City Feel, and an even better downtown culture? (Please Answer using comparisons of Atlanta, Boston Etc, with a full explanation)

2 - Will Raleigh's Public Transit and Rapid Transit ever get built so that it is easy to get around urban areas?  (I do not care about traffic) 

3 - Will Raleigh ever get more recognition as a larger city so that the residents and City Council take the area seriously? 

4 - Will any of these things happen, or be about to happen by 2021?  (My leave for another place date) 

I hope this is the right place to post this, I have been scouring news about development, but I don't know what to think of it all, and you all seem to have experience with it. Thanks. 

Agreed with @Green_man.  I've numbered your questions so that they'll be easier to respond to.

1 - Certainly yes, but development doesn't happen overnight, and due to how Raleigh (and the Triangle as a whole) has developed, it will take a lot of time before downtown and midtown really start to fill in the empty spots.  RTP is the largest research park in America and is a massive center of employment for the region, and I think that until those types of jobs start coming to downtown, it will be difficult for Raleigh to become truly urban.  Also note that population growth in Raleigh didn't start to really take off until the advent of the car, and thus most of the development has been car-based.  If you're looking for comparisons, Charlotte is not Boston but is much farther along in terms of urbanization than Raleigh is.  I don't think any of the Charlotte posters will argue that the light rail is run well by any means, but it and its parallel rail trail have sparked a ton of urban growth along that corridor.  I'd even argue that Durham has a more cohesive urban "feel" to it than Raleigh.

2 - I suspect that transit will happen...eventually.  Government-involved projects generally take much longer than they should to get rolling.

3 - Not really sure how to answer this.  It's not like Raleigh is unknown nationally, but it doesn't have the unspoken weight to it that truly large cities like Houston, LA, NYC, etc have.

4 - Barring something truly unprecedented, none of this will happen by then other than a few new buildings around downtown.

[po-boy]

Raleigh is growing and should continue to do so for the foreseeable future. That being said it is probably never going to feel like Boston and probably not even like Atlanta. At least not for a very long time.

Raleigh Transit will improve but not in exponential way. The city is working on BRT now and there should be a commuter rail within a decade. I am not seeing much chance for light rail anytime in the foreseeable future since Wake County rejected Light Rail and the Durham orange Light Rail Project died earlier this year.

As for timing, 2021 is only two years from now. It is doubtful that much if anything that has on not already been announced will be complete by then. We should have a few new towers such as 301 Hillsborough, FNB, Smokey Hollow, and possibly the Nexus project. Hopefully RUSBus and the new city hall will be under construction. I think the closest things to a game-changer we reasonably can hope for is progress on Dix Park and the Kane - Malik project south of downtown and that possibly getting an MLs slot.

[UrbanLion]

16 hours ago, po-boy said:

Raleigh is growing and should continue to do so for the foreseeable future. That being said it is probably never going to feel like Boston and probably not even like Atlanta. At least not for a very long time.

Raleigh Transit will improve but not in exponential way. The city is working on BRT now and there should be a commuter rail within a decade. I am not seeing much chance for light rail anytime in the foreseeable future since Wake County rejected Light Rail and the Durham orange Light Rail Project died earlier this year.

As for timing, 2021 is only two years from now. It is doubtful that much if anything that has on not already been announced will be complete by then. We should have a few new towers such as 301 Hillsborough, FNB, Smokey Hollow, and possibly the Nexus project. Hopefully RUSBus and the new city hall will be under construction. I think the closest things to a game-changer we reasonably can hope for is progress on Dix Park and the Kane - Malik project south of downtown and that possibly getting an MLs slot.

Thank you Po-Boy, and Nicholas. I appreciate your kind replies. I guess I will have to wait and see in 2-4 years how I feel. I really like Raleigh and the people here. My family is also here. But the difficulty is with an urban feel. I don't want it to feel like ATL or Boston, but I want the culture to be similar. Even Charlotte has the Larger City Culture. Durham also has those vibes. 

Anyways, thank you all for your time.