Downtown Raleigh's Future

[JTsaysToYou]

Yeah, Raleigh is moving forward, It'll take a while for the REALLY out there/wacky stuff (A.K.A. Plensa) to take effect, at this point, we're not ready for it yet. We're like a teenager, we're still figuring out who we are, and once we know that, we can move on.

[JTsaysToYou]

Yeah, We definitly need something to attract people, I think some kind of shopping complex would be nice, just make sure its not in the core of downtown, that could cause MAJOR traffic problems. Although with all the ground-level retail going in all of the developments, who knows when a demand for this kind of space will exist? I think overall it would be a good idea, a better nightlife would be nice too (although glenwood south is very nice). Actually, Glenwood south would be a perfect location for something like this! maybe...

Edited October 7, 2006 by JTsaysToYou

[JTsaysToYou]

Let us, while waiting for new monuments, preserve the ancient monuments."

I completely disagree, I think it should say, "let us, while waiting for new monuments, not forget the value of the old ones, and build the new ones elsewhere." GRRR NO ONE SEES MY POINT

[romec]

Who is to say what a "monument" is?

Not every old building is a gem; beauty and importance really is in the eye of the beholder.

I wouldn't make a broad statement such as stopping development along Fayetteville once all the current proposals are up (I certainly hope that in 50 years if someone wants to raze the hudson and put in a larger building that they don't get stopped because its an "old building"), but I defintely hope that new projects start spilling on to Wilmington and Salisbury.

[RaleighLover]

A downtown shopping complex will not work in Raleigh. Fayetteville Street Mall proved this and with so many other options available without going downtown (Crabtree, Triangle Town Center, et al.). no one will bother.

What's needed to get people downtown first off is an easy transportation route into downtown i.e. the light rail.

Once people have an easy way to get downtown, and leave, they'll actually consider going, then you worry about giving them a reason to go (i.e. attractions). Plensa would have been a good start.

Raleigh seems to be banking on the new convention center to do this and make the Raleigh revitalization work. Indeed, the convention center is the cornerstone of the revitalization.

The hope is that the convention center gets people downtown which causes new businesses, restaurants, et al. to open up to take advantage of the new business potential and these new business attract even more people downtown and so on and so forth. It's a chain reaction.

But truth be told, at least in the near and semi-distant future, you can forget about downtown shopping complexes, arenas, etc. as being part of that. It's going to be things on a much smaller scale and scope for some time.

[RaleighLover]

Well, lucky for you, there's always Facebook to fall back on.

[RaleighLover]

It seems to me that lately the city council as ended their "it's too tall!" attitude and have actually asked for real improvements in otherwise cookie cutter designs and encouraged height, such as the case with RBC and Reynolds.

[JTsaysToYou]

OKAY GUYS, I am not saying that every old building has value, and that they are all beautiful and gorgeous and have infinite worth. Thats not what I'm saying. I'm saying that the value of the buildings we have now is the feel that they create, I know that many of you only care about height, design, and more height, but I'm saying that sometimes the feel of the street is more important than having a stupid skyscraper. What is RBC going to add to the atmosphere of fayetteville st? Nothing! Sure it'll be big, but all it will add is a glass wall and a little retail! Have you guys never been to big cities and been in their glass alleys of skyscrapers? While it may be tall and amazing this is not what fayetteville st. should be Fayetteville st. should be warm, friendly, and historic. It should not only preserve, but highlight the historic buildings. The taller you go, the smaller and smaller, and the less impressive buildings like briggs hardware, and the capitol get! The more height you have on a street that should be historic, the less historic it will be! Fayetteville st. is PERFECT just the way it is! It has a warm, nice feeling, and when youre there it is friendly, it feels like home! I don't want a bunch of height-lusty huge skyscrapers going up there! If we allow much more development on fayetteville st. it will ruin it! Why is this concept SO hard to understand! Do you want fayetteville st. to be a sunless windtunnel and nothing more, or a place where people can sit around, talk and laugh, and feel at home? I'm not saying that raleigh should never build another skyscraper ever, I'm just saying that we shouldn't ruin fayetteville st. in the process. There are other places to build that aren't historic, that can be glassy wind-tunnels! but WHY does fayetteville st. have to be one too? It seems like all you guys care about is how tall things are, and how nice they look in the moneyshot. WAKE UP Raleigh is not your typical city, Raleigh is special, there is a friendliness and kindess and feeling of love that you don't get in Charlotte or New York or Chicago! Fayetteville st. personifies Raleigh, ask yourselves, do you want raleigh to be a cold sunless windtunnel, or an open sunny kind place to be? Is this so hard to understand?!?!?!

Now do you get what I'm saying?

[JTsaysToYou]

A downtown shopping complex will not work in Raleigh. Fayetteville Street Mall proved this and with so many other options available without going downtown (Crabtree, Triangle Town Center, et al.). no one will bother.

Despite the name, Fayetteville st. Mall was NEVER a mall. I think something like this is entirely feasible! Just not in the exact center of DT, but kinda near it, maybe on sites 5 or 6 or something?

[serapis]

I understand where you are coming from JTsaysToYou, but I think your vision of the current fayetteville st is a bit romanticized. Fayetteville is nowhere near it's potential. Realistically speaking a moderate number of the buildings in the Fayetteville st vacinity are not worth saving. I'm not saying that we need to mimic Charlotte. However I believe there can be a harmonious fusion between the old and new on Fay st, because we must leave OUR generations archetecture for future generations to enjoy.

[Justin6882]

I don't think an "Underground" complex would be a good idea here - its not really a good idea in Atlanta now. It basically "hides" everyone below street level...and last time I went it was pretty run-down.

[dmccall]

Underground Atlanta is a perpetual failure. Locals shun it because it's a tourist trap. It's actually kind of hard to get to unless you're on Marta, so most tourists don't go. I think it IS too hidden from the heartbeat of the city.

Fayetteville Street mall failed because it was littered with bums. A private development that is able to masterplan the leases of several blocks and kick people out at will, like Southpoint and Crabtree can, could do quite well, but parking would have to be free and there would have to be absolutely no crime, period, for over 5 years for the place to keep a reputation worth drawing people away from Crabtree.

Ultimately, inward-oriented development like a mall is not what downtown needs. It could do fine on its own, but I don't think it would improve the viability and walkability of the neighboring street areas.

[dmccall]

I think Fayetteville St. in its current state is kind of boring, to be honest. Are you saying that the ground floor of RBC's tower will take away from the charm of an empty parking lot?

Why is this even a topic right now? Nobody' talking about tearing down any current buildings on F St. There are plenty of projects to the south and west that are coming online.

BTW, for a building to cast a shadow on the Capitol in the potential sites below the 200 block, the building would have to be about 160 stories tall. There was all this hoopla about the Wachovia building and whether or not it would cast a shadow on Capitol. Obviously it was a bunch of tree-hunging whining.

F St. is on track to be a great mix of old and new. I don't think we're even close to touching the wrecking ball mentality that has stripped Charlotte of its history.

[JTsaysToYou]

Wow, I give up, you guys will never see it my way, and neither will the real-estate market. We'll see how fayettevill st. is in 50-75 years, and see how much you like your precious new glassy skyscrapers then.

I give up.

You guys win.

[Raleigh Kid]

What else do you all think that developers along with the city of Raleigh can put downtown to attract more tourists along with more locals?

[willrusso]

Wow, I give up, you guys will never see it my way, and neither will the real-estate market. We'll see how fayettevill st. is in 50-75 years, and see how much you like your precious new glassy skyscrapers then.

I give up.

You guys win.

Most of those buildings on Fayetteville Street look raggedy anyways... Give me a canyon of glass any day.

[capitalapts]

What else do you all think that developers along with the city of Raleigh can put downtown to attract more tourists along with more locals?

how about a convenience store that serves Fayetteville St.? The closest convenience store to the capitol building is several blocks away, like driving distance away. So many small ammenities like this are missing from downtown verite.

[jumboman]

Wow, I give up, you guys will never see it my way, and neither will the real-estate market. We'll see how fayettevill st. is in 50-75 years, and see how much you like your precious new glassy skyscrapers then.

I give up.

You guys win.

wow man, i think people understand what you're saying, its just that they dont agree with your unrealistic idealistic view of f street. when was the last time you were down there? i was there last night and i saw so much promise with the empty lot and cranes where the old convention center was. i just sat there and imagined how it was gonna look after the hotel and site 1 and then looked down to where the RBC tower is gonna be [you'd rather have a empty surface lot that a tower because its made of glass?] and realized that after everything is done, its gonna be way better and a ton more "charming and warm and cuddly" that you so crave. more buildings = more people = more action/fun things going on downtown = warm and cuddly

[JTsaysToYou]

wow man, i think people understand what you're saying, its just that they dont agree with your unrealistic idealistic view of f street. when was the last time you were down there? i was there last night and i saw so much promise with the empty lot and cranes where the old convention center was. i just sat there and imagined how it was gonna look after the hotel and site 1 and then looked down to where the RBC tower is gonna be [you'd rather have a empty surface lot that a tower because its made of glass?] and realized that after everything is done, its gonna be way better and a ton more "charming and warm and cuddly" that you so crave. more buildings = more people = more action/fun things going on downtown = warm and cuddly

If you read what I said, and understood it, you would've noticed I said AFTER all of the construction going on now, this includes RBC, Site 1, Lafayette, etc. I never said I wanted a parkinglot, I said AFTER all the parking lots are gone (which they will be after RBC and south end development) we should stop developing, mkay?

And btw, go to philly, boston, or new york, and show me ONE example where glass canyons are warm and cuddly. THEY AREN'T. And I don't hate glass, I hate row after row after row of glass buildings where historic buildings could be.

I promise you guys, if we let things keep going AFTER (notice that AFTER AFTER AFTER AFTER AFTER?!?!?) all of this new development, briggs hardware, and the capital will look like this. (thats in philly btw)

If thats what you want, go for it. I just think Raleigh should be different.

[JTsaysToYou]

^agreed, although there is the drugstore on hargett st. by cafe luna

[RaleighLover]

Despite the name, Fayetteville st. Mall was NEVER a mall. I think something like this is entirely feasible! Just not in the exact center of DT, but kinda near it, maybe on sites 5 or 6 or something?

Right, it was never a mall because it never had a chance in hell to become successful or encourage the new business growth necessary to make it become the mall concept it was envisioned.

A mall will not work downtown. Not in sites 5 or 6, not anywhere downtown.

[RaleighRob]

how about a convenience store that serves Fayetteville St.? The closest convenience store to the capitol building is several blocks away, like driving distance away. So many small ammenities like this are missing from downtown verite.

True, although if the customer base builds up enough to convince CVS to have operating hours like most normal drugstores do (til 9pm), that'd help a good bit, I bet.

I've always thought downtown needed a library. Although that's more the county's fault than the city.

I've heard downtown doesn't have hardly any medical practices there...not even a small private physician's office.

[JTsaysToYou]

Right, it was never a mall because it never had a chance in hell to become successful or encourage the new business growth necessary to make it become the mall concept it was envisioned.

A mall will not work downtown. Not in sites 5 or 6, not anywhere downtown.

Okay, any reasons why?

Or just opinion?

[romec]

Well one of the major problems with a mall downtown is parking. Who is going to pay for parking at a mall downtown while there is abundant free parking at Crabtree/North Hills etc.

That's not to say that a mall would never work; if a downtown reaches a critical mass (maybe 15-20K people), then maybe the residents in downtown would support the mall. I've seen a few malls in downtown areas with varying success. Charleston has a mini-mall, (a few chain stores, I don't even remember if there was an anchor) but I'm sure that mall is fueled primarily by tourism. I've also seen the concept of an "overstreet mall" in a couple of cities, but in my opinion they never really felt like a mall, more so just some fast food restaurants that people could get to during their lunch break.

Personally though, I think that we wouldn't want a mall downtown: The main reason is that with a mall you typically have an enclosed area that shuts down at 9:00 pm. Without careful planning, you'd essentially shut down an area of downtown (granted 9:00 is later than 5:00pm, but still)

If it's just the chain stores that you're looking for, they'll eventually pop-up when the population is there.

[RaleighLover]

Okay, any reasons why?

Or just opinion?

I stated the reasons why in a previous post. Read up.