Downtown Raleigh's Future

[Damien]

I seem to recall a mall of sorts in a high rise building in Indianapolis. It even had a movie theater. When I was there it seemed pretty busy. Maybe one of the city owned sites could incorporate a kind of urban shopping center into a high rise with offices and condos.

[RaleighHeelsfan]

Man, I sure hope not!

Underground ATL sucks! It's like a run down mall that every small town has. There is nothing there worth seeing. Plus, Raleigh needs a mall above ground at street level downtown. Kind of like in Chicago.

What I wish is that Raleigh would get it's own Miracle mile!

Underground ATL, has no stores worth going into, it's dark, scary, and feels very unsafe.

[romec]

Damien: yeah, downtown Indy was one of the cities that I saw with an "overstreet" mall.

I think the 2nd or 3rd floors of several building were connected via skybridge

[DCMetroRaleigh]

How about a DC Gallery Place/Verizon-style development in Raleigh, which is essentially a mini-Times Square?

The new Gallery Place combines business, shopping, dining, entertainment and condominiums all under one roof within walking distance to many of Washington, DC

[dmccall]

I love that streetscape. Here's a link to the location. Perfect for Metro access.

I can't tell, but are all of the stores outside access only or is there an internal mall like they have in Georgetown (which I hear is great for future governors conducting high speed horse chases)

[Transplant]

The streetscape above (from DCMetroRaleigh) is exactly what we in Raleigh should hope for. It provides for distinct store fronts, which is great.

[Jones_]

Thats perfect for new construction in a metro core. Build up the areas around Raleighs core with lots more residential and then we can support shopping downtown perhaps. Gallery place is not too far off from what Progress II was aiming for and what West is trying for, although both of them lack the supporting surrounding urban fabric.

Edit note: I am curious to see what retail 222 gets since it does have more surrounding urban fabric to support uses other than restaurants which Glenwood is beginning to do with Holly Aiken, Rennasaince Bath, Cherry and Firefly.

Edited October 10, 2006 by Jones133

[DCMetroRaleigh]

DM, Gallery Place is not really an indoor mall in the usual sense, although some of the stores can be accessed from the interior of the mixed use development. There is a huge movie theater inside Gallery Place on the third floor of the complex.

The view from the Verizon Center side.

[dmccall]

Thanks. I'll have to get up there and get my Rosa Mexicano fix while checking it out (and getting my IKEA fix, too). I just had visions of a large-scale Electric Company mall that was on Hillsborough and was such a flop.

I like that we have some 20-30 story buildings proposed for downtown, but I think stuff like what you've picture is what will really make downtown. I'd rather have 6, 5-story buildings with high quality street-level retail than 1 30-story building and 5 empty surface lots.

What I really have no use for is buildings that are between 6 and 20 stories. They don't make an impact on the skyline and don't improve the streetscape any more than a 6 story building does.

[serapis]

Why does it seem like everyone has become so anti-skyscraper lately. I truly don't understand it. Last year, everyone was disapointed, because of DT's lack of height. All of a sudden when a couple of highrise proposals are approved, now everyone wants Raleigh to become Mayberry. I truly don't understand...... It's silly, really. Wow, we have three buildings over 25 stories, that's just waaay to much for a city close to 400,000. Please...........

[RaleighHeelsfan]

Thanks. I'll have to get up there and get my Rosa Mexicano fix while checking it out (and getting my IKEA fix, too). I just had visions of a large-scale Electric Company mall that was on Hillsborough and was such a flop.

I like that we have some 20-30 story buildings proposed for downtown, but I think stuff like what you've picture is what will really make downtown. I'd rather have 6, 5-story buildings with high quality street-level retail than 1 30-story building and 5 empty surface lots.

What I really have no use for is buildings that are between 6 and 20 stories. They don't make an impact on the skyline and don't improve the streetscape any more than a 6 story building does.

I 100% disagree with you. Those surface lots mean...places for future development. Why, just for the sake of having a building there, would you want to put a bunch of 5 story buildings? This is downtown Raleigh, not downtown Cary. These surface lots should be saved for something much taller and better. Skyscrapers can have street level retail as well.

If we decide to fill up all those surface lots with 3-5 story buildings, we will run out of room fast. I say save them till something great comes along.

Why not have a great street level retail, and a great skyline at the same time? It takes time, Raleigh needs to aim for the best. Not just any ole thing.

Who's with me?

[Jones_]

I 100% disagree with you. Those surface lots mean...places for future development. Why, just for the sake of having a building there, would you want to put a bunch of 5 story buildings? This is downtown Raleigh, not downtown Cary. These surface lots should be saved for something much taller and better. Skyscrapers can have street level retail as well.

If we decide to fill up all those surface lots with 3-5 story buildings, we will run out of room fast. I say save them till something great comes along.

Why not have a great street level retail, and a great skyline at the same time? It takes time, Raleigh needs to aim for the best. Not just any ole thing.

Who's with me?

Not me. Sunless caverns do not make a pleasant atmosphere. And those towers always have parking garages with hundreds of honking, exhaust spewing tailpipes even with a good transit system. A few skyscrapers is fine...Raleigh can probably do a dozen or so over 30 stories...20 30-story buildings in downtown proper is too many. If our grid spilled all the way south to I-40 yeah I could see 50 such buildings scattered all the way between the capital and 40......the intersection of Wilmington and Davie is a great example of what I am talking about....its in the freakin' shadows all day and windy from the higher level winds funneling down. Three parking garages or loading docks face the intersection (Progress I and II and 333 CP). Coopers will never see sunlight again (assuming its not bulldozed). Hudson's design was even altered to let in more sun because people like it (although I know a handful of people who never open their shades too)....at least people who live amongst those buildings do. I have yet to hear good arguments for streets walled with mega skyscrapers....municipal prestige, density in a world where sprawl has proven a bad design...sure, but there is a thing as too dense imo.

Edited October 10, 2006 by Jones133

[RaleighHeelsfan]

Not me. Sunless caverns do not make a pleasant atmosphere. And those towers always have parking garages with hundreds of honking, exhaust spewing tailpipes even with a good transit system. A few skyscrapers is fine...Raleigh can probably do a dozen or so over 30 stories...20 30-story buildings in downtown proper is too many. If our grid spilled all the way south to I-40 yeah I could see 50 such buildings scattered all the way between the capital and 40......the intersection of Wilmington and Davie is a great example of what I am talking about....its in the freakin' shadows all day and windy from the higher level winds funneling down. Three parking garages or loading docks face the intersection (Progress I and II and 333 CP). Coopers will never see sunlight again (assuming its not bulldozed). Hudson's design was even altered to let in more sun because people like it (although I know a handful of people who never open their shades too)....at least people who live amongst those buildings do. I have yet to hear good arguments for streets walled with mega skyscrapers....municipal prestige, density in a world where sprawl has proven a bad design...sure, but there is a thing as too dense imo.

I see what you mean. But I am not saying put large skyscrapers in all those spaces. We know that is not going to happen anyway.

[cophead567]

so instead of having one or the other, lots of huge buildings vs. lots of small ones, raleigh should just arrange its downtown into different sections. which is kind of whats going on now. the blocks around salisbury, fayetteville, and wilmington seem to contain the tallest structures. the warehouse district should stay lower then the rest, right now a 30 story may not work to well. glenwood south could have a little taller residential buildings with the entertainment it already has.

each section just has its own style i guess......unless everyone is talking about like 100 years in the future, then well, mammoth skyscrapers may take over by that time.

[bullcity76]

How about a DC Gallery Place/Verizon-style development in Raleigh, which is essentially a mini-Times Square?

The new Gallery Place combines business, shopping, dining, entertainment and condominiums all under one roof within walking distance to many of Washington, DC

[ncwebguy]

Tourists already go downtonw for City Market/Exploris, Capitol Square/History/Natural Science museums, etc. They also go to Glenwood South, and some are checking out the "new" Fayetville Street.

From the Capitol, the nearest convenience store is CVS to the south at Hargett and Fayetville. It closes at 5 or 6 on weekdays, 1 on Saturdays, and doesn't open on Sundays. Hopefully this will change, but that will take a while. Mutual on Hargett west of Cafe Luna is open less than 9-5. The next closest is the one on Glenwood, next to Snoopys and in the same building as Dive Bar. It is not convenient, but hardly driving distance" from the Capitol. There is smaller stores hidden in One and Two Hannover, but those are only 8-5 M-F type places. To the north, there is the BP at Peace and Person.

To the east of downtown, the closest is in the 700 block of Martin Street. It is open later, but not late, due to loitering, etc. There is one on Edenton in the 800 or 900 block, but I've never been in there. The next one from there is the Exxon at New Bern and Tarboro, across from DMV, CookOut and Bojangles.

With so little residential in the CBD, there won't be a true convenince store there.

For medical practices, they are concentrated around Wake Med to the east, Duke/Raleigh Community to the north, and Cameron Village to the west. To the south, I'm sure there's some in Garner, but I don't know where.

[carynative]

I like it, but do we have the density to support something like this in Raleigh. What about building an additional structure around the base of the Clarion that would be one story and include retail/restaurants. Is that even feasible or a dumb idea. I wouldn't shed a tear if that building was torn down.. BUT... it is one of Raleigh's most striking architectural features. (how many other round buildings do we have?)

[plus2]

The BofA tower in Charlotte has a little mini-mall attached to the base. It caters to the business clientele (Brooks Brothers, etc.) but something attached to another tower could work. Perhaps the next big tower in Raleigh could have a shopping lobby for a base instead of an above ground parking deck.

[ncwebguy]

The "Gallery Place treatment" could work on the new Reyonolds tower, RBC Plaza, Site 1, and parts of the Marriott. By doing it on Site 1 and RBC, it would kickstart F Street into Miracle Mile territory. I hope it will be used in the Empire/County parking deck project on the SW corner of Davie/McDowell too. They need to be flexible, maybe offices for a few years and then turned into retail when more people start living downtonw. The base of the Wilmington Street deck south of PE II was built this way to allow retail fronting Wilmington once there is a demand for that space. The lot west of Lincoln Theater could also get this type of look to it, as could the block with Coopers on it.

There is *no* reason to have to choose between skyscraper and street level activity at the base. You can not have cafes and/or outdoor eating on *every* block. Ground level retail can even obscure parking. There needs to be a buffer betwee deck entrance and front door, but this can be accomodated by design. Brightly lit displays draw customers inside. The H&M concept could work in a number of places downtown.

Sunlight still reaches F Street even with the towers there. Davie/Wilmington is hurt by the topography of the land there -- Davie slopes down from the west and is in a bit of a dip from the south.

Hillsborough Street could be a Miracle Mile candidate, but the churches (Baptist, Episcopal, and Catholic) will never go for it east of Dawson. The Episcopals finished their four story fellowship hall in 2005, the Catholic Church owns almost their whole block except Democratic Party HQ, and the Baptists and state own all of their block. I would *love* to see the parking lot on the NE corner of McDowell and Hillsborough turned into a deck wrapped with *something* (condos over retail/office), but doubt that'll happen.

Charlotte had an overstreet mall but it was mostly lunch places and convenience shops. The bridges kept people *off* the sidewalks and destroyed CBD Charlotte street activity.

Fayetville Street Mall had a few shops in its days -- the Radio Shack (where the Capitol Room is now), Wendy's (where the Capitol Room may expand into), two drug stores (CVS and the one across the way that closed a few years ago), Kimbrells, Rainbow Fashions (now being converted to Boylan/Pearce), Lynn's Hallmark, bank branches, Hardees (now The Big Easy), McCroys, the Post Office, Hudson Belk, the mini-library south of the Wake County Courthouse, the barber shop, flower shop, and Chick Fil A south of Davie. There was no "unique" shops once Hudson Belk and Briggs Hardware were made smaller by mall department stores and big box hardware stores. No residents (with jobs and homes) nearby didn't help either.

[dmccall]

I 100% disagree with you. Those surface lots mean...places for future development. Why, just for the sake of having a building there, would you want to put a bunch of 5 story buildings? This is downtown Raleigh, not downtown Cary. These surface lots should be saved for something much taller and better. Skyscrapers can have street level retail as well.

If we decide to fill up all those surface lots with 3-5 story buildings, we will run out of room fast. I say save them till something great comes along.

Why not have a great street level retail, and a great skyline at the same time? It takes time, Raleigh needs to aim for the best. Not just any ole thing.

FYI, Cary and Mayberry are about 2 story buildings. NOWHERE in my post did I say that we need an abundance of 2 story buildings. I also said I do not mind skyline-enhancing towers. What I said that we don't really need is 12 story buildings. We need 2, 6 story buildings instead. 12 story buildings do not make a skyline impressive, unless you are Cary or Mayberry.

The quote above is based on a false construct that needs to be addressed: a shortage of downtown developable property. I certainly could see this logic applying if we really did have a shortage. Let's look at downtown. If we break it into quadrants defined by Capital Blvd/McDowell and Edenton St. (borders are St.Marys/Boylan/RRtracks, Peace, Person, and South St). Here are the number of lots which could be developed into a building with the new RBC building's footprint (by quadrant) without tearing any historic or 2-story buildings down:

NW: 31

NE: 42

SE: 25

SW: 46

These are rough estimates, but you can do your own research and check my numbers by looking at the Google Map of downtown.

So out of an area that roughly has 120 blocks, there are 144 places to build a tall building. (of course, this does ignore parameters such as buidling in the church parking lot or abuting another tall building with your own).

Tall buildings (those >20 stories) come along to growing cities every 2-5 or so years, right? Even if we got a tall building every other year, it would be 70 years before we are out of development space. In the meantime, even if each of those new towers got world-class, neighborhood inducing design, it would be a good 20 years or more before we started to get contiguous development across many blocks.

If we are content tearing down low-risers that are <40 years old, than we should have no problem knocking down today's low-risers in the year 2046. If we have a shortage of empty lots 40 years out, then great! We would have developed a downtown that is great to live in, visit, and invest in. Currently we have a 120 block dalmation.

[JDC]

A bit obvious, but I'll say it anyway: affordable housing

I don't mean housing projects, I mean condos between $100-200k and more apartments that rent for less than $700 or $800 a month.

Get more people living there, and drive up the demand for places to stay open into the evening. I find it quite odd that when I take the bus into Moore Square on a weeknight that the sandwich shops and coffee houses are all closed - even before sunset.

[RaleighRob]

A bit obvious, but I'll say it anyway: affordable housing

I don't mean housing projects, I mean condos between $100-200k and more apartments that rent for less than $700 or $800 a month.

Yeah, I've been screaming this for quite a while now!

[JTsaysToYou]

Yeah, I've been screaming this for quite a while now!

We all have. My family wants to move DT and my dad has his site set on RBC and I'm like "Dad, we are NOT that rich. SORRY." and then he gets all frustrated and such. It's a drag.

[CliffyB]

1. A true pool hall would be nice.

2. A "real/dedicated" Karaoke bar. Cody's doesn't count.

[paletexan]

1. How about an ice skating practice facility. Hockey now defines the area, and downtown has not really capitalized on the Stanley Cup excitement. it would be great to watch the Hurricanes practice while strolling through downtown ... I know it's a stretch.

2. Would like to see a bookstore if the population base can support one in the future.

3. Finally, promoting some kind of ethnic town (Indian, Vietnamese, etc ...). The triangle area is diverse, and our best restaurants and markets are located in ad hoc run down shopping centers in Cary and Capital Blvd.

4. In addition to affordable housing as JDC suggested, we need to maintain affordable rent for retailers / restraurants. There should be affordable dining/shopping options for everyone.