Downtown Raleigh's Future

[Jones_]

On 5/31/2019 at 12:20 PM, UrbanLion said:

Thank you Po-Boy, and Nicholas. I appreciate your kind replies. I guess I will have to wait and see in 2-4 years how I feel. I really like Raleigh and the people here. My family is also here. But the difficulty is with an urban feel. I don't want it to feel like ATL or Boston, but I want the culture to be similar. Even Charlotte has the Larger City Culture. Durham also has those vibes. 

Anyways, thank you all for your time. 

Interstingly I am sitting in Boston right now (Newton area but about to hop on the T and head to the harbor. Anyway, my thoughts...

The downtown is and will fill up at a steady rate. It's pretty organic and not fueled by many out of State investors. The employers are small to medium sized and that is why its been not too rapid. I think this is healthier in the long run. I do not think Raleigh or the downtown has much identifiable culture though other areas do such as a large middle eastern presence west of NC State and a large Indian presence in Cary. Downtown is tech culture. The rising rents and real estate prices are pushing out the arts somewhat or at least halting new stuff like that. It's becoming more standardized in some ways commercially but also adding new high end clothes stores recently. The jury is out on whether those places stay in business. I hope so, but also want the lower revenue, creative stuff to find a foothold and be able to hang on. 

Public transit and transportation is a joke. The bus service is inadequate it uses an inadequate road system that exists in an inadequate urban fabric. Light Rail will not happen in my working lifetime (I am 45)

Raleigh will struggle to be an Alpha City with Charlotte, Atlanta, DC and Even Nashville stealing the thunder in the SE. We lack the history of even a Charleston or Savannah. We will always be a 'nice place' with 'plenty of jobs', but that doesn't boost you to the levels I think you are talking about. 

Personally I think Raleigh is 'fine', but doesn't do much for the parts of my brain that need stimulated. It doesn't push the envelop on much of anything. Grabbing Dix from the State was the boldest thing ever around here. The modernist architecture is pretty cool and I think we have a higher share of that than other places. The university presence is huge and brings the little culture we have. But the lack of soul, lack of any real historic identity,  leaves me feeling meh. 

 

Edited June 2, 2019 by Jones_

[KJHburg]

I like Raleigh a lot better than Nashville.  the whole city looks better more parks and greenways, more trees, better design guidelines,  and of course great jobs and neighborhoods.  As for downtown Raleigh I think it has a great future.  There are great state museums, historical buildings that are protected and new tech firms and new office buildings.  Couple random photos from today.  Lots of housing in downtown area now and more coming and I do think Fayetteville Street looks great mixture of high rises and smaller buildings.  You have 2 great state museums today that attract people from all over the state and the country for that matter.  (for the record I think downtown Durham is great too)  Maybe Raleigh will never have tall buildings like a Charlotte but that is okay it is all about the streetlevel interaction anyway.   Anyway I am pretty bullish on downtown Raleigh and its surrounding neighborhood. 

Looks like the Sir Walter Raleigh apartment renovations have started. 

[RALNATIVE]

54 minutes ago, KJHburg said:

I like Raleigh a lot better than Nashville.  the whole city looks better more parks and greenways, more trees, better design guidelines,  and of course great jobs and neighborhoods.  As for downtown Raleigh I think it has a great future.  There are great state museums, historical buildings that are protected and new tech firms and new office buildings.  Couple random photos from today.  Lots of housing in downtown area now and more coming and I do think Fayetteville Street looks great mixture of high rises and smaller buildings.  You have 2 great state museums today that attract people from all over the state and the country for that matter.  (for the record I think downtown Durham is great too)  Maybe Raleigh will never have tall buildings like a Charlotte but that is okay it is all about the streetlevel interaction anyway.   Anyway I am pretty bullish on downtown Raleigh and its surrounding neighborhood. 

Looks like the Sir Walter Raleigh apartment renovations have started. 

Thanks for such a great compilation of photos.

[KJHburg]

question for you Raleigh experts what is being built with this crane south of Union Station?  is that small condo building I heard about. 

[unique1rdu]

Yes.  That is the Fairweather Condos.  I believe it will be six stories.

[SydneyCarton]

Raleigh needs a big plaza with a monumental fountain like Trafalgar Square or Rockefeller Center.

More retail and a movie theater would be nice too.

[KJHburg]

friend up in Raleigh for the weekend took this shot today.  

[KJHburg]

well this is pretty exciting and extending downtown to the south in a big way  and a 20,000 seat soccer stadium to boot. 

https://www.wraltechwire.com/2019/06/24/draft-with-1-9b-malik/

[Jones_]

I hope the City steps up and helps actually connect it to downtown and also demand that the area be downtown-like in its design. 

[RaleighHeelsfan]

First off, what is the timeline? You always have a little confidence when Kane is envolved.

Second, where would this be located? if off Wilmington street they better move that homeless shelter...lol

[Jones_]

Penmarc road area....pretty much around and behind the Red Roof Inn. I don't know all of the parcels they control (might not all be shown in the property deeds if title hasn't actually transferred), but that is more of less it. 

Edited July 4, 2019 by Jones_

[KJHburg]

21 hours ago, Jones_ said:

Panoramic road area....pretty much around and behind the Red Roof Inn. I don't know all of the parcels they control (might not all be shown in the property deeds if title hasn't actually transferred), but that is more of less it. 

I think I saw Kane said the properties were under contract or maybe even option but not purchased yet. 

[orulz]

I hope the City steps up and helps actually connect it to downtown and also demand that the area be downtown-like in its design. 

Jones, I am curious, what would your opinion be of redeveloping the entire Caraleigh and Fuller Heights neighborhoods at downtown-like density?

My opinion is that this is would be the best outcome.

-The houses in this area are not of a type that is especially rare in Raleigh.

-This is going to become teardown land in very short order between Kane and Dix. If we are going to tear stuff down, we might as well be building densely.

-This is the only way to make Kane's development relatively contiguous with downtown proper.

[Jones_]

On 7/2/2019 at 7:48 AM, orulz said:

Jones, I am curious, what would your opinion be of redeveloping the entire Caraleigh and Fuller Heights neighborhoods at downtown-like density?

My opinion is that this is would be the best outcome.

-The houses in this area are not of a type that is especially rare in Raleigh.

-This is going to become teardown land in very short order between Kane and Dix. If we are going to tear stuff down, we might as well be building densely.

-This is the only way to make Kane's development relatively contiguous with downtown proper.

Fuller heights minus one house (up for City historic status and obviously different than the others) can and should be denser. I'd like 3 story townhouses and/or 4-6 story apartment or condo buildings. 

Caraleigh is a little different because its the most intact mill village in Raleigh (really only one has any left and that is Raleigh Hosiery Mill at West Hargett with 4 houses left). 

I'd pull the Fuller heights streets through to South Saunders and connect them to Maywood too. I think you could leverage the historic mill village as an attraction perhaps...maybe even put in a museum to NC mill  history. Obviously I'd like to keep most of the structures there. 

Edited July 4, 2019 by Jones_

[KJHburg]

More details on a big project south of the Dillon  in the Warehouse district in the Business Journal today subscriber article.

""New details have emerged about a major project planned in downtown Raleigh to redevelop a block of aging buildings in the warehouse district to up to 20 stories tall.  Three property owners, including CAM Raleigh and Center Line Properties, filed a rezoning request to the city in February.  Affected properties include the Contemporary Art Museum of Raleigh building and HQ Raleigh.   The third owner of the group, attorney Gary Fields, says that if approved the project would feature around 500,000 square feet of mixed-use space, including around 40,000 square feet of retail, 230,000 square feet of Class A office space and 170,000 square feet of residential units.""

https://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/news/2019/07/09/big-200warehouse-district-project-in-downtown.html

[Jones_]

Not a fan. 

[rolly]

Jones_ , why not a fan? Is it not a good use of that space?

A couple example renders:

[nicholas]

I don't have an issue if the old brick buildings and warehouses are incorporated into taller buildings.  But if they get knocked down and replaced by a bunch of tall, modern-looking buildings, I think it will take away from the character of the Warehouse District.

[Jones_]

A couple of reasons Rolly. 1) this is the last block of old warehouses in the City. There are some newer ones and a few scattered here and there. but when these are gone, the warehouse district is gone. Two of the ones on this block are older than 1888, which is the first available record of their existence 2) I think its too much density crammed down in a deadend corner. This is not a NIMBY statement. It's about all of those people and cars jamming down in there each and every day to the exact same point . You cannot exit west or south. I think it'd destroy the newly vibrant pedestrian atmosphere down there dodging cars every second. I think this corner is best when people walk down into and check out the stores and shops. I'd fill in the blanks against the tracks with like 6-8 story, sturdy apartment buildings and maybe stick a single 12 story office building wrapping around the old cotton seed warehouse and punch some storefronts into that warehouse (the one on the SE corner of the lot..there used to be two, the other on the SW corner). I'd also cobble stone every street in the warehouse district, add short gaslit street lights, and bulb out the intersections with crazy plants and industrial style art installations that speak to the railroad and warehouse history of the area. Especially Peden Steel. This area could be a distinctive destination, but as its shaping up, its just becoming melded into the rest of the downtown. 

[DownEast]

A downvote? Really? Perfectly reasonable response to Rolly's question. I can certainly sympathize with loss of historic stock. The warehouses could easily be integrated into the new development. Street facade at the least. Definitely better than the Dillon was. Look at Winston and Durham. Dont understand why adaptive re-use is not a priority here. Developers seem intent on pulling Glenwood South all the way to beltline. The neighborhood is soon to be walled off from the rest of town with new towers. The scale of this will certainly erode the area's charm.

[DrewR05]

I understand your concern about preserving historic buildings. It is essential because there is a limited supply of historical buildings in Raleigh, but most of all they tell a story. That being said, this parcel of real estate is positioned directly in front of Raleigh main/future LRT & commuter rail transit center. This seems like a perfect spot for this size of development. Aesthetically speaking, I am more concerned about the potential development of the building Greg Hatem just purchased from Dean Debnam. Last, traffic is a sign of commerce, growth, and urbanization. Traffic is inevitable and will force our state/ local governments to invest in regional transit, encourage people to live closer to their work and walk. I like it. 

[Jones_]

On 7/12/2019 at 2:07 PM, DrewR05 said:

I understand your concern about preserving historic buildings. It is essential because there is a limited supply of historical buildings in Raleigh, but most of all they tell a story. That being said, this parcel of real estate is positioned directly in front of Raleigh main/future LRT & commuter rail transit center. This seems like a perfect spot for this size of development. Aesthetically speaking, I am more concerned about the potential development of the building Greg Hatem just purchased from Dean Debnam. Last, traffic is a sign of commerce, growth, and urbanization. Traffic is inevitable and will force our state/ local governments to invest in regional transit, encourage people to live closer to their work and walk. I like it. 

I am definitely in favor of maxing out road capacity in order to demonstrate the need for light rail. Two things cross my mind here though. 1) the roads will max out here at about half the proposed density (just a gut feeling...don't have the calcs to back it up. I did study some traffic stuff for my CE degree though) and 2) pedestrians too will be hemmed in here. I'd be more in favor of the density shoved in here if there were combo bike/pedestrians overpassing the tracks both to the west and south of the proposed Davie/West pedestrian connection. 

I assume Trent knows this isn't Reddit and down votes are not anonymous....perhaps not. 

[VAtoNC]

Here is something new:

 

https://121fayettevilleraleigh.com/

 

 

 

Edited July 26, 2019 by VAtoNC

[KJHburg]

2 hours ago, VAtoNC said:

Here is something new:

https://121fayettevilleraleigh.com/

 

Now that is what I am talking about some height.  Looks like Kane is involved which is good but maybe being developed by Preferred Office Properties a REIT.    I see there is a parking garage with street level retail there now.  This is a great looking building and it looks like it is 375,000 sq ft of office space.  

Edited July 26, 2019 by KJHburg

[RaleighHeelsfan]

So are we talking a 30 story tower on top of a parking deck that is already there? if so, that would be the new tallest