Downtown Raleigh's Future

[Eastwestrob]

The Triangle has Jim Goodnight and John Saul (worth about $4 billion and $2 billion respectively). Maybe they are tight with the cash.

Maybe they can build a tower too

[MR-2]

I had an idea about an aquarium, but the legislative building is kind of in the way. In my idea, the aquarium would be where the leg. bldg. is now, and would be mostly glass with a curved roof resembling a wave. I also took it a little further and thought about re-inventing the state govnt. complex into 4 towers each at different heights with triangular shaped crowns creating what looks similar to mountains. The two different projects in this idea(aquarium, and state govnt. complex) would create an icon not only for Raleigh, but for the entire state, as it would resemble the two most noticeable geographic boundaries in our state, the ocean, and the mountains.

Whenever I look at the government complex leading from the capitol to the Archdale building, I am reminded of the Washington Mall and the Smithsonian. Maybe some day it'll look something like that.

[RALBOI]

Should Raleigh leaders or Developers push for a MacAuthur park type mall in downtown Raleigh, i was their and visited the mall it was a great experiance because that city made it work,it incorporates well with outside retail/bars/clubs, meaning everybody was not just in the mall, but also spending their money at these other downtown businesses,the mall has bougth alot more business to downtown as ahole,an this mall is AWSOME I LOVED IT WHEN I WAS IN NORFOLK,VA

[DigitalSky]

A mall like MacArthur would be nice in both Raleigh and Charlotte. I don't know it would work though, one could argue that Crabtree is too close maybe?

[orulz]

I really think that downtown malls are never going to be built again. The mall in Norfolk was built in a time when the general public thought that "if it ain't a mall, I ain't going." Some people still feel that way, but I get the idea that momentum is shifting such that an urban shopping district could work once again. The difference is that, unlike a mall, a district wouldn't put a huge interruption in the city's urban fabric.

[pdxheel]

Both Portland and Seattle have built malls downtown in the past 5-10 years that have initiated further redevelopment.

[reed]

I would love to see this happen. A "stacked" mall several stories high with escalators up to each floor would be great. And, it seems like a way to get the middle America types to come downtown when they otherwise wouldn't.

[Eastwestrob]

One of the coolest malls Dt I have ever been to is in Sacramento,CA

[avery]

I would rather see retail fronting the streets of downtown as opposed to a mall. Maybe a Bloomingdales or a Nordstrom that stands by itself with some other retailers along the street. Chicago's Miracle Mile comes to mind. Stores like Virgin Records, Tiffany's, Cartier and some higher end type of places that are unique to Raleigh would work well. Marshall Field's in Chicago and Nordstrom in San Fransisco are really cool places to shop.

[49er]

the one in norfolk was almost if not completely publicly financed. Also, the 3 or 4000 people in downtown raleigh hardly justifies a regional shopping mall.

[avery]

I don't care for the idea of a shopping mall. I like the idea of getting more people out and about the streets than driving to a mall and going indoors all day.

Edited April 6, 2006 by avery

[pdxheel]

I don't care for the idea of a shopping mall. I like the idea of getting more people out and about the streets than driving to a mall and going indoors all day.

Agreed, but what Raleigh needs more than anything is people downtown. A mall would help spur other developments and retail which would increase the number of people on the streets.

[Eastwestrob]

Agreed, but what Raleigh needs more than anything is people downtown. A mall would help spur other developments and retail which would increase the number of people on the streets.

But would it be the typical 9-5 pedestrians. I doubt the mall would stay open till 9-10pm. This would bring DT back to the stagnet dead after five deal

[orulz]

Places like Southpoint and North Hills have proven that people are willing to shop outside, even in the dead of winter or the dog days of summer. Not only are they willing to do it - they love doing it!

So why, then, why does it have to be a mall? If the city wanted to do some sort of subsidized major retail downtown, why not declare a couple blocks of a street as a "retail district" and give tax breaks to tenants or the developers who attract them? It's the control and marketing that a mall's management has that allows them to create a complete, destination experience. That's why malls are so popular and successful, while (by and large) downtowns are not.

Maybe the city can lure a big-time retail firm downtown with some incentives. Then they can use their contacts to lure some big tenants, and build the same destination atmosphere that exists in a mall, on a downtown street instead. That way, you get the marketing and management expertise you need to make it all work.

A district would integrate with the city's urban fabric much better than a giant monolith of a mall. I wonder how many streets Norfolk closed off to make their mall fit...

Edited April 6, 2006 by orulz

[avery]

Places like Southpoint have proven that people are willing to shop outside, even in the dead of winter or the dog days of summer. It's all about marketing.

So why, then, why does it have to be a mall? If the city wanted to do some sort of subsidized major retail downtown, why not declare a couple blocks of a street as a "retail district" and give tax breaks to large tenants and developers who attract them? Bring in the major tenants and retail developers, and you're bringing in the marketing you need to promote it as well.

A district would integrate with the city's urban fabric much better than a giant monolith of a mall that would force the city to close off a number of streets just so it can fit (Norfolk...)

Well said

[pdxheel]

But would it be the typical 9-5 pedestrians. I doubt the mall would stay open till 9-10pm. This would bring DT back to the stagnet dead after five deal

Why couldn't the mall stay open until 9 or 10? That is the whole point of the mall, it would attract people to DT Raleigh different parts of the day and on the weekend. Of the DT malls I know if they all stay open until 9 or 10 (even later when you consider many of them have movie theaters associated with them).

[orulz]

Well said

Woops... edited my post after you posted that...

I need to figure out that "preview post" button one of these days... >_<;

[ncwebguy]

Fayetville Street and the surrounding area could be this shopping district. The twin towers of site 1, the Marriot, the Lafayette, RBC and the block north of Progress II will contribute a lot of street level space. This is in addition to existing underutilized street level space in BoA, BB&T, Sheraton, Progress I, 333/Capital Bank, the Hudson, the Wake County courthouse post-rennovations, McCroy's, the pre-merger Wachovia building (with esclator), etc. with things tapering off around Hargett. This would give CC visitors plenty of things to do and spend money on, and there is plenty of free weekend parking available only a block away along Wilmington. A few years down the road, there will hopefully be a better street level experience along Davie in both directions from Fayetville, toward City Market and the Depot/Warehouse district.

With a little guidance, this corridor could be similar to King Street in Charleston -- chain stores intermixed with local eateries and other specialty stores.

There is a line from Borders in Cary to Borders at Wake Forest/Six Forks to B&N in Triangle Town Center with *no* bookstores south or east of that line. This area could be served by a two story, small footprint store similar to Southpoint or TTC. Glenwood South is too full/overpriced to pull this off, but Fayetville Street is an almost clean slate, waiting to be filled. Something along the facade grant could help fill a lot of long empty storefronts. The existing Downtown Raleigh Alliance street team is just as good as any mall police force and cleaning crew.

[orulz]

The key is, though, there has to be unity in management, or some powerful and influential team from the city to fill the same purpose. Leave everything up to the individual building owners and it'll be very difficult to build a complete experience that can rival a shopping mall.

I wonder who manages things in Charleston?

[sax184]

The mall is the antithesis of the city. Tearing up city blocks of urban fabric to put in something that is an experience easily replicated with more convenient parking at Triangle Town Center only undercuts the idea of the city.

[Raleighsfinest]

It wouldn't undercut the urban fabric. It would just be a highrise building with intense shopping inside. A project like this would spur development through several surrounding blocks.

[avery]

With a little guidance, this corridor could be similar to King Street in Charleston -- chain stores intermixed with local eateries and other specialty stores.

King Street is a great example of how this area could be. Another great area is Greenville, SC's Main Street. I used to live there and that place was always jumping late at night. I remember mostly restaurants with live music performed on the sidewalk. I'm sure they have added some retail by now. I think a mix of this and King Street would be awesome. It would be THE place to spend the day walking and enjoying the outdoors...shopping, eating, exercising.

[citiboi27610]

The proposed Blount Street Revitalization project is an example of how one firm can be over an entire development to give it a unified identity. The retail district could also be like that. One managing group can be the similar to a developer finding tenents for a strip mall. The hard part of alluring mall type business to a non-mall area in an area such as ours is the concept isn't sold properly. A manger would sell the concept.

I always hoped Raleigh could get a development similar to Concord Mills in Concord or Arundell Mills between DC and Baltimore. Raleigh's would be outside though.

Also, the retail district should be on the southeast side of downtown. Development on the edge of downtown radiates to the outlying areas, hopefully a retail development would help the southeast area.

[RALBOI]

I really think that downtown malls are never going to be built again. The mall in Norfolk was built in a time when the general public thought that "if it ain't a mall, I ain't going." Some people still feel that way, but I get the idea that momentum is shifting such that an urban shopping district could work once again. The difference is that, unlike a mall, a district wouldn't put a huge interruption in the city's urban fabric.

I understand alittle what your saying,but Norfolk is making it work,and it adds to the urban fabric because it adds more people to the downtown area,when i was their people whore everywere around and in that mall it's time Raleigh thinks out of the box this thing would be a HIT!!!

[RALBOI]

Both Portland and Seattle have built malls downtown in the past 5-10 years that have initiated further redevelopment.

I know that's why Raleigh needs to consider this thing,it would be thinking out of the box for this area, so far the only area that does this is Charlotte. They think out of the box and they git results! Raleigh! lead the way like a capital city should!

Edited by orulz. Cutting back on caps and exclamation points... let's all stay calm here.