Downtown Raleigh's Future

[dmccall]

I 've always been impressed with the feel of Tampa's Old Hyde Park Village. It is an outdoor, 4-block (or so) development of national chain stores which has a old town feel to it. I always envisioned something like this working around where the Button South/Warehouse was, especially if we get N. Saunders St and Dix redeveloped into being a cool row-house/bungalow kind of neighborhood.

Something like this would suck a lot of life out of F-St and City market at this point, so we aren't at the point where it is sustainable. The other thing is that OHP is losing their largest anchor, their 7-screen theaters have fallen out of favor, and their Crabtree equivalent did a major renovation and sign some great new stores. The problem with a large albatross of an indoor mall is: what do you do when it loses its lustre? The Georgetown mall that was in True Lies is like a morgue. An outdoor experience seems easily convertable in the future.

The key is to have the operator be able to police the entire project and kick people out for whatever reason they feel. The lack of this is what made Fayetteville St Mall die. There was no coordination of leases and a master retail plan, and everybody had the "right" to be there for hours on end doing nothing but accosting people. You don't get that at Crabtree, and that's why it is so successful.

Edited April 7, 2006 by dmccall

[RALBOI]

well, considering there are 3 huge malls within a 20 minute drive of downtown Raleigh, I still say that plunking a mall in the middle of downtown is not the brightest idea I have heard in a long time. I have never been to Macarthur Mall or whatever it is called... actually, I have never even been to Norfolk, so maybe I am just missing out. I doubt it though. I have, on the other hand, been to Providence Place on several occasions, and spent a lot of time in Providence in general. I had a sibling at Providence College, and when I visit my family in New England, I fly in to Providence nearly every time. It is a wonderful city that has truly been revitalized. I think Raleigh could learn a lot by looking to Providence. That does not mean a mall will be the answer to Raleigh's woes... I think the bigger problem with Raleigh is having a city council that listens to 90 year old women from Smithfield when deciding what to do downtown. That is just brilliant... let's build a downtown that caters to people who will be dead in 5 years! god... anyway, I think it would be great if Raleigh spruced up city market (and it will take more than some gas lanterns people) and the Moore Square area in general, and turned that whole area into a shopping district that could be on par with North Hills. Like everything in Raleigh, there is so much potential in that area, yet it just sits there... it is nice enough, but could be so much more. OK, time for work...

I agree this is that leadership void Raleigh tends to have, we always seem to short change ourselfs here in Raleigh,those City market plans sounds like a winner,you know i was just joking with you earlier i respect everyones opinion

[citiboi27610]

The Downtown Raleigh Alliance, or whoever is over development in downtown Raleigh should work on the shopping district concept. Like in most big cities this shouldn't include all the stores we can find every where else. Downtown definitely needs a nice bookstore. A lot of big cities also have a restaurant/bar/arcade called ESPN Zone which would work well with all the college sports fans.

The point is, a downtown shopping district usually means something different from what you'll find in the suburbs. The shops in Cameron Village are a great example of stores like that.

[ncwebguy]

King Street succeds in part because of its close proximity to the College of Charleston. It is part Franklin/Hillsborough Street, part miracle mile, one "mini-mall" collection of smaller stores off an interior corridor, a dash of 5th avenue (Saks, Ben Silver), and some anique stores as it approaces the battery. There were always people on the sidewalks (tourists and office workers), and little to no police presence that i noticed on a Friday morning/afternoon.

When Margaret Mullen was in charge, it seemed like the Downtown Raleigh Alliance was positioning itself as a "manager" of downtown. She said there was list of stores, restaurants, etc. that wanted in if Fayetville street opened up, but they didn't want to show their future plans to their rivals. She then left for Arizona while the city dragged its feet to get Fayetville Street Mall ripped out. The question is was she bluffing, and got called on her bluff, or did these stores go elsewhere (North Hills). Or are these stores now scouting for locations now that Fayetville Street will finally be open to traffic in a month and a half?

There can be a mix of multi-level "super stores" like Nordsrtoms, etc. intermingled with smaller like Urban Outfitters, American Apparel, etc. The Salisbury/Fayetville/Wilmington corridor lends itself perfectly to these storefronts. There already is kind of a shopping district on Wilmington's 200 and 300 blocks, with some extensions down East Hargett and Martin street. But they look unkept from the outside, and they have "sale/going out of business" signs on the windows. Developing the block north of Progress II would link City Market to Fayetville.

City Market suffers from the gaping hole left by Greenshields. In August it will have been closed two years! It is the the heart of City Market, and the dark empty windows make the rest of City Market seem less appealing. There is little actual retail in City Market -- the chocolate store, the native american and tibet(?) stores, and some art galleries. The old Greenshileds storage area along Blount would be perfect for a botique of some type. Downtown really fails the "how far do you have to go to get a hammer" test. Providence is lucky to have a nice water feature that says "here is the city center". The Plensa sculpture *could* be this, but it looks like it needs the approval of the Smithfield Senior Center first. Ugh.

Imagine ESPN broadcasting live from ESPN zone downtown during Duke/UNC games, Hurricanes games, etc. Jillians kind of fills this niche, but the parent company is bankrupt and the Raleigh location seems to be happy with the business it already does.

[JDC]

We have the same thing here, we even have a town called Smithfield up the road. The people worried about their 'State House view' get all the attention.

Ah, Smithfield, RI. I'm a big fan of Wright's Chicken Farm in North Smithfield.

Maybe people listen to the old people because they're the only ones speaking up. I don't know.

[StevenRocks]

A mall in downtown Raleigh wouldn't be a bad thing, but it's just not feasable. A smaller retail district with a mix of national and unique local stores would work a lot better with the population surrounding downtown and would canibalize the least sales from the malls around it.

[RALBOI]

I think peabody mall in Memphis is another great project that would work great in downtown Raleigh, it has more of a North Hills flair

Edited April 12, 2006 by RALBOI

[Damien]

I think peabody mall in Memphis is another great project that would work great in downtown Raleigh, it has more of a North Hills flair

That is what one of the proposals for site 1 used as a model.

Edited April 12, 2006 by Damien

[49er]

i dont think the demographics are there yet. The east and south sides of downtown raleigh are still very low income from a retailer standpoint. You have to understand that chain retailers still dont take chances on most downtowns these days. More and more are finally "getting it" but they still play it safe. The vibe I got while in Raleigh was "we're different and we dont want chains"...which was cool. why have pf changs when you have duck and dumpling and 5 star? Raleigh really can position itself as a corporate town like charlotte, but with more funkyness like Austin.

I still scratch my head as to why Charlotte has 10000 residents and 60,000 office workers downtown with no major retail, no mall, nothing.

[Justin6882]

Or are these stores now scouting for locations now that Fayetville Street will finally be open to traffic in a month and a half?

Yeah, I don't think thats gonna happen. I'm thinking late July at the earliest.

[RALBOI]

i dont think the demographics are there yet. The east and south sides of downtown raleigh are still very low income from a retailer standpoint. You have to understand that chain retailers still dont take chances on most downtowns these days. More and more are finally "getting it" but they still play it safe. The vibe I got while in Raleigh was "we're different and we dont want chains"...which was cool. why have pf changs when you have duck and dumpling and 5 star? Raleigh really can position itself as a corporate town like charlotte, but with more funkyness like Austin.

I still scratch my head as to why Charlotte has 10000 residents and 60,000 office workers downtown with no major retail, no mall, nothing.

Your right, but Epic center is going to change all of that.

[pdxheel]

San Fran currently has an interesting DT mall development. Something like this would be great for Raleigh.

See link:Skyscraper Forum_San Fran DT Mall

[urbanvb]

Another mall is not what Raleigh needs but it could use more retail and housing DT. IMHO Old Town Alexandria VA wins for the best of both worlds.

[Jones_]

I agree 100%...old town Alexandria is as good as it gets...I love that place, been a dozen times in the last 3 or 4 years.

[pdxheel]

I also agree, but I don't think that it is realistic for Raleigh to model itself after Alexandria. Alexandria is tourist town, Raleigh is the State Capital and financial center for the region. Raleigh needs DT developments that combine retail, housing and office space. Alexandria for the most part is just retail (housing if you are extremely wealthy).

I agree 100%...old town Alexandria is as good as it gets...I love that place, been a dozen times in the last 3 or 4 years.

[Jones_]

Raleigh used to more or less resemble Alexandria, minus the row houses...but the realative size of the cities through the years has remained about the same. Far from being just a tourist town, it is an important suburb of D.C. with a huge federal courthouse complex and rail links to the rest of metro area. Raleigh, especially post WWII elected to abandon its downtown and subsequently bulldoze its historic structures. It would have been easy to leave the historic core intact and exand outward and upward, but institutions of all types, State Govt, Peace College, County and City govt, and banks have all been major contributors to the ripping out of old historic Raleigh. Raleigh peaked in resemblence to Alexandria around 1890. By 1930 we were a bustling modern city of automobiles with 8 "skyscrapers". WWII and white flight from the inner city changed all that in most southern cities.

[pdxheel]

Raleigh used to more or less resemble Alexandria, minus the row houses...but the realative size of the cities through the years has remained about the same. Far from being just a tourist town, it is an important suburb of D.C. with a huge federal courthouse complex and rail links to the rest of metro area. Raleigh, especially post WWII elected to abandon its downtown and subsequently bulldoze its historic structures. It would have been easy to leave the historic core intact and exand outward and upward, but institutions of all types, State Govt, Peace College, County and City govt, and banks have all been major contributors to the ripping out of old historic Raleigh. Raleigh peaked in resemblence to Alexandria around 1890. By 1930 we were a bustling modern city of automobiles with 8 "skyscrapers". WWII and white flight from the inner city changed all that in most southern cities.

I'm not disagreeing that Raleigh USED to be more like Alexandria. Obviously they took different paths. The questions is, given where there are now, what is the best approach. Trying to recreate Alexandria in Raleigh just won't work. This is not to say that I don't wish Raleigh was more like Alexandria.

[Transplant]

Imagine if, say Cary or Brier Creek was built like Alexandria....that would have been nice.

[Jones_]

I'm not disagreeing that Raleigh USED to be more like Alexandria. Obviously they took different paths. The questions is, given where there are now, what is the best approach. Trying to recreate Alexandria in Raleigh just won't work. This is not to say that I don't wish Raleigh was more like Alexandria.

Definitely a mixed bag here now, and even folks here on UP tend to have very different images of what Raleigh should be. With some finesse, an Alexandria-esque city can be maintained/created. Keep the high rises south of Martin St...read over 10-12 stories or so. High Rises are about image, and image matters around places like convention centers and for money shots which for us is south of Martin. Historic low and mid-rise create the best Alexandrian (and imo overall pedestrian) environment and we have that mostly between the Capital and Martin. Reduce property tax on federally registered historic properties to 25% of assessed value (currently its 50%) within the downtown census tract. The exchange for this is that the structure may not be torn down without unanimous city council approval. As it is, even the most of historic of properties can be torn down for any reason, anytime. Justification is that your property is within the radius of effect of the convention district, essentially the city and county have subsidized traffic to your property, so you do not get free rein to slap up cheap EIFS laden crap to make a quick buck as I suspect several property owners along Wilmignton St. and other areas are waiting to do. My thinking revolves around the 'shopping district' concept mostly as discussed elsewhere in the forum and not so much on residential urban form.

I know lots of people want high-rises all over downtown...this is just my opinion, and preference for how to have a city with more than just glassy characterless spires and boxes all over the place with Starbucks (I know Alexandria has one) and Panera Breads at their base.

Edited April 13, 2006 by Jones133

[dmccall]

Man those brick sidewalks and the restaurant balcony look like trial lawyer havens.

Seriously, I honestly have to say it looks better in pictures. When I was there two years ago I thought that the old buildings (like those pictured) really needed a lot of work and the new buildings don't fit in at all.

That said....the concept is fantastic. Alexandria is the look I was hoping for when I wrote John Kane and drew this concept for him:

Instead we got a very homogenous project with all of the second story windows lining up (that makes it look contrived).

Nevertheless, I'd love to see the area around the Warehouse to the SW all redeveloped with row houses and corner retail, kind of like Capitol Hill, or even street retail like Alexandria, although I don't think we really need that much retail there...maybe.

Edited April 14, 2006 by dmccall

[RALBOI]

Man those brick sidewalks and the restaurant balcony look like trial lawyer havens.

Seriously, I honestly have to say it looks better in pictures. When I was there two years ago I thought that the old buildings (like those pictured) really needed a lot of work and the new buildings don't fit in at all.

That said....the concept is fantastic. Alexandria is the look I was hoping for when I wrote John Kane and drew this concept for him:

Instead we got a very homogenous project with all of the second story windows lining up (that makes it look contrived).

Nevertheless, I'd love to see the area around the Warehouse to the SW all redeveloped with row houses and corner retail, kind of like Capitol Hill, or even street retail like Alexandria, although I don't think we really need that much retail there...maybe.

You have alot of vision,"my man "keep up the good work those drawings are "LIKE THAT"!! that's slang for cool that's what your drawings are.

[dmccall]

You have alot of vision,"my man "keep up the good work those drawings are "LIKE THAT"!! that's slang for cool that's what your drawings are.

Thanks! I sent the original to him, but scanned it before putting it in the envelope (back in 2001).

[RALBOI]

Thanks! I sent the original to him, but scanned it before putting it in the envelope (back in 2001).

I think your drawings would be good for Kidds Hill.

[IBruton]

With all the great projects happening downtown, I'm wondering if our city leaders have become too focused on the present. Obviously, there is momentum for downtown development. However, we still need more corporate headquarters, and I have not heard of any announcement beyond RBC Centura. Does anyone know if there is still an effort being made here? Will this momentum stop as quickly as it was started?

[Justin6882]

I can think of two off the top of my head since RBC announced - Headway Corporate Staffing and Capital Bank. I don't think the city is resting on its laurels at all. I would love to see a LARGE company move its HQ to DTRaleigh, and maybe the Reynolds can do that for us?