Kidd's Hill/Crabtree area development

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

I'm a little confused, here. I think there are two Kidds Hill projects:

1) Where Steak & Ale was - all the way to the Crabtree parking deck bridge is one project. This property used to be called "Kidds Hill Plaza" and had Brendle's, Food Lion, Steak & Ale, and others but is planned to be called "Galleria"? It was supposed to have creek-level parking decks with Steak&Ale level retail with condos on top. Then the underground parking was taken out about a year ago. Ever since Glen-Tree got the go-ahead the condo demand in that area has vastly changed.

2) Kidd Brewer's old house (where the Crossroads Restaurant/It's Prime Only was on top of this hill). This is the project referred to in the paper, based on their map.

Frankly I'd love to just see Crabtree redevelop the plaza area to be old-world looking stores and condos on top of two stories of parking. THEN take those surrounding areas and develop according to the new mall configuration as a live/work/play self-sustaining town unto itself.

I totally agree! I thought that the picture in the N&O showed a different place for Kids Hill/Galleria? I guess this may mean that Kidds HillGalleria is probably still on hold and that the Brewer's lot is moving on through the planning stage? Maybe someone should contact the N&O wrighter of this story to confirm?

[dmccall]

Please see the below response for the question, Do you have an eta or start date for your complex? I had sent an email to the architects who where designing this Crabtree complex.

"The project has been placed on hold. I do not think it will go forward."

Very sad!

DwnTwnRaleighGuy,

Did you send the email to the architects doing the Steak & Ale area thing or the Kidd Brewer's old house thing? I've found the site plan for the latter (the one from the paper) and done some stuff for it, but I wonder if it's a moot point.

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

DwnTwnRaleighGuy,

Did you send the email to the architects doing the Steak & Ale area thing or the Kidd Brewer's old house thing? I've found the site plan for the latter (the one from the paper) and done some stuff for it, but I wonder if it's a moot point.

This is the exact response that I got from the architects. "The project has been placed on hold. I do not think it will go forward." And this is for the Steak & Ale project, next to Edwards Mill Rd/Creedmore rd.

[dmccall]

And this is for the Steak & Ale project, next to Edwards Mill Rd/Creedmore rd.

Ahhh! OK. Thanks so much.

[ncwebguy]

Kidds Hill *Plaza* looks like a war zone. The former Its Prime Only location looks, umm, I don't know, I haven't been that way in a while. There was limited traffic going to and from the various restaurants there.

There was a lot of work a while ago at the base of Kidds Hill itself, which can be seen in the sat view at the Blue Ridge/Crabtree Valley Ave intersection. I don't know if this was for flood control or something else, but now it's just a big ditch across from the McDonalds. It is cool that Google Maps still has the old plaza picture with the pizza hut and swervy Creedmoor Road access to the top of the Crabtree deck.

Edited April 25, 2006 by ncwebguy

[Raleighsfinest]

Kidds Hill looks like WWII Germany. I think the measurement of success with Soleil tower, will possibly lead to a more grandeur project at Kidds Hill. We'll see.

[JunktionFET]

That slice of land is begging for redevelopment. As the Crabtree Valley area evolves over the next two years or so, I suspect we'll see something really cool proposed for the hill.

Heading west on the I-440 Beltline from the North Hills area, you can see across to the other side of Crabtree Valley (about a mile away) and see some structures there on Kidd's Hill. It is a great location.

[dmccall]

Incidentally, plans were filed this week for the other Kidd's Hill, the one that had the Crossroads/It's Prime Only restaurants. (Kidd Brewer's old house). The new name for the development is "Crabtree Village Retail Center" (.pdf file). At least we wont get it confused with the Kidd name any more!

I am confused, once again by the this project. Here is the rezoning proposal for it. (pdf file of Z-068-05)

Am I right in assuming that Z-068-05 was just the application for the zoning change and that SP-33-06 is the "site plan" that has to be approved by the city? In other words is the SP phase the final hurdle that all plans have to jump whether or not rezoning is warranted?

[ChiefJoJo]

N&O article on the rezoning case. Planning staff disagrees with request, but PC may approve anyway.

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

I saw this article in this mornings N&O and it seems to refer to Kidd's Hill Plaza, which is incorrect. Kidd's Hill Plaza is located on the Edwards Mill rd side of Crabtree. But nonetheless an interesting issue to deal with.

[ncwebguy]

It is good to see the planning commission's true colors come through -- who cares what planning staff thinks... The developer thinks ts a good idea and 22 feet retaining walls are a good idea! Where are the "friends of Kidds Hill" and other preservationists? Are hills near suburban shopping malls fair game for earthmovers, but hills that could contribute to an urban core should be left untouched?

[yoga]

Where are the "friends of Kidds Hill" and other preservationists?

I think they're busy with the Dorothea Dix property.

[avery]

It is hard to tell too much from the rendering shown in the paper, but I don't think I like this proposal all that much. I would hate to see that hill gutted to the point that it no longer resembles a hill. It is a beautiful piece of land with lots of nice trees and I would like to see a plan better integrate these elements. I'm not saying preserve the whole thing because this property has huge potential. I would rather see minimal grading while usings the building's foundations to fit to the slopes.

[dmccall]

I would rather see minimal grading while usings the building's foundations to fit to the slopes.

I think that one problem facing them is that any kind of mass built on that hill is going to require huge, ugly retaining walls. At least this plan uses buildings in the middle for most of the retention. The grade of the lot is a problem. From the top of the property (Homewood Banks/Blue Ridge), the property ascends as one goes toward the creek only to have a cliff dropping off at the back edge of the house. It is treacherous and will never be very walkable unless the grade is changed. Most of those trees are just ugly pines that grow back quickly anyway.

[ChiefJoJo]

Planning Commission can't agree on site.

[avery]

Here is a link on the Kidd Hill project that will go under the microscope with the comprehensive planning committee. Environmental concerns abound as flood prone Crabtree Creek is a concern.

Kidd Hill Mixed-Use

Edited September 27, 2006 by avery

[RaleighRob]

I don't know if I'm as concerned about it causing more flooding trouble as I am erosion and mudslides. That's a steep hill pointed right at the creek! You start bulldozing trees off of it and scraping off the topsoil, and that's a recipe for trouble.

[avery]

I am more concerned about flooding. By replacing the permiable ground surface with pavement, the water will have no place to absorb. The stormwater will funnel into stormdrains and will probably empty into the creek at a much faster rate. I don't know if they can implement a cistern or something to collect runoff and release it in a time controlled fashion.

I agree that added erosion could also be a concern. It could create a large amount of sediment into the creek.

[RaleighRob]

^That's true too, didn't think about that.

I think what we're seeing is TWO main enviro concerns that can be a problem here...both flooding and hillside erosion.

Either way, if this thing gets built there's gonna have to be some major oversight on what they do!

[orulz]

I hope the planning commission and city staff have the balls to stand up to what will no doubt be some very pushy and smooth-talking developers.

[carynative]

Why can't the hill just stay a hill? seriously. I guess they feel the need to shave it down to have more level ground to build. I would think it would be cool to have a smaller (maybe taller) development squarely on top of the property. The hill as it is now is a unique landscape feature for Raleigh.

[dmccall]

I don't think that land absorbs that much water. It is incredibly steep in about 70% of the property.

[Cary NC]

Whoever buys a residence or owns a business there : Make sure you have REALLY good FLOOD insurance.

Edited September 27, 2006 by Cary NC

[Subway Scoundrel]

I am all for floodwater control but to be honest, it is a ugly piece of property as far as the hill goes. The house area is nice but the value is too much for residential.

The only reason I have that they should not cut the hill out is back in the early/mid 1960s, they pulled a flatbed truck at the base of the hill and turned it into a stage and people sat on the hill and watched Tina Turner perform.

Actually, I dont want more flooding but I am no expert on it and can not comment but I am not against it because they want to dig.

[ncsugrad204]

Is anyone on this forum an evironmental engineer? This project can work with good planning and oversight. stop trying to stop development in areas where the city has designated for development. Crabtree will flood regardless of this development and that this hill is no buffer for flooding. the trees that line the creek are. Also Explain to me how a hill with or without a development does not contribute to flooding. U want to slow down flooding? Stop the weather!!!!! Freaking crazy... Oh and the response to run off. There are several different techinques in building that can reduce runoff to levels lower than natural barriers. Plus the small percentage of land use will have very little impact on total flooding volume fo this area. It would different if this developer wanted to develop from the hill all the way through the mall and to the soliel center and further up the creek.