Kidd's Hill/Crabtree area development

[dmccall]

Whoever buys a residence or owns a business there : Make sure you have REALLY good FLOOD insurance.

Most of the condos will be more than 70' above the creek's normal elevation. I think the lowest stores will be somewhere in the 30' range above the creek: similar to about halfway between the mall's lower level and upper levels. If Crabtree is ever almost 1/2 full of water, then we will have a regional crisis never seen before on our hands.

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

Speaking of flooding, has anyone heard of any talk about the long term plans for the land/creek behind Crabtree? Not the proporty for sale, but the land and creek that the state owns? It seems to me that something has got to be done now to fix the problem for the long term.

[JTsaysToYou]

Ha, and we called the people in New Orleans stupid. We don't even have the ocean and mississippi to deal with. Just a creek!

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

Ha, and we called the people in New Orleans stupid. We don't even have the ocean and mississippi to deal with. Just a creek!

I never called the people in New Orleans stupid, just the decision makers. Or the lack of decision/action!

Edited September 28, 2006 by DwnTwnRaleighGuy

[Jones_]

Is anyone on this forum an evironmental engineer? This project can work with good planning and oversight. stop trying to stop development in areas where the city has designated for development. Crabtree will flood regardless of this development and that this hill is no buffer for flooding. the trees that line the creek are. Also Explain to me how a hill with or without a development does not contribute to flooding. U want to slow down flooding? Stop the weather!!!!! Freaking crazy... Oh and the response to run off. There are several different techinques in building that can reduce runoff to levels lower than natural barriers. Plus the small percentage of land use will have very little impact on total flooding volume fo this area. It would different if this developer wanted to develop from the hill all the way through the mall and to the soliel center and further up the creek.

I am a State ENE. Obviously nobody living on the hill will have to worry about floodwaters from the creek. Methods of alleviating floods tend to split between two schools of thought, containment (dams, catch basins, etc) and preserving of the natural environment, not building impervious surfaces at all in a drainage basin, and keeping all development back from floodways and floodplains. The Crabtree basin has had its natural environment messed up for some time with the Quarry, Crabtree Mall being prime examples. With that in mind, I would guess stormwater runoff and erosion are the chief concerns. The hill does allow alot of rain to infiltrate and now every inch will run off, into a pipe, and full off typical pavement goodies (oil etc.) straight into the creek. During construction, you will likely see alot of soil end up in creek. Like Subway Scoundrel was saying, Kidds Hill has some sentimental value in this city too, is quite a unique environmental feature as Crabtree begins to flatten out into an alluvial plain...and historically, Edwards Mill sat at the confluence of House and Crabtree Creeks at the base of Kidds Hill. I would also imagine you would find the remains of Woodland Indian settlements and maybe even paleo indian artifacts (9000bc)

[orulz]

Usually when developers cause problems with erosion and runoff, particularly during construction, if the city catches them, the developers give a sob story, or perhaps threaten that nobody will ever build anything in the city ever again if they have to worry about heavy fines for erosion. The developers will promise to do better, and wind up with hardly so much as what amounts to a slap on the wrist, and Crabtree Creek and the roads and pathways around it will be filled with orange silt for years.

I agree with carynative - This hill should remain a hill. We're erasing all our natural topography because it's cheaper to build 1,000 unit subdivisions when they're flattened out, and I'd hate to see this rather prominent feature torn up.

Anyway, I hate to be so negative about any project. I guess my point is that I just wasn't very happy with the original program for development that was released previously. Let's just wait and see the details on the revised plan.

[JTsaysToYou]

I never called the people in New Orleans stupid, just the decision makers. Or the lack of decision/action!

Wasn't saying you did. Just attempting a bit of humor. BTW I love New Orleans a lot!

[ChiefJoJo]

By the way the city council votes on this today at 1pm. Comprehensive PLanning COmmitte rejected it, but some think the council MAY approve it, even though the developer propses to shave off most of what is now "Kidds Hill." I know environmental groups strongly oppose this project. I may head over to see what happens...

[dmccall]

Passed by 6-1 vote (Crowder was the dissenting vote).

[rooster8]

No big surprise with this council.

[citiboi27610]

That's so disappointing. I feel like there is a greater desire for smarter development. Our council obviously doesn't align with that view. When do we get to vote for new council members?

[ncsugrad204]

Great move by the council this area is for development not tree huggin. Most of the property is above the flood zone and the impact to the flooding will be minimum. I agree with some of the other developments not in the best interest of the area but this plot of land is great for the development.

[dmccall]

Yeah. I agree that this is good. In yesteryear the council would have rejected this and approved 18 L-shaped strip shopping centers at arterial corners. They would have only approved a development at this site that faces uphill and turns its back on Crabtree, destroying any sense of a walkable high density node in town. Truth is, the land actually ascends toward the creek, then has a treacherous cliff down to creek level. For anything substantial to be built there without major grade changes they would have to erect a series of terraced blank retaining walls with many many stairs. The office building at Lake Boone and Wycliff comes to mind. They have that treacherous metal stairway that is so cold and uninviting. Thank goodness some developments that are unique are being proposed now.

For Crabtree to truly be "fixed", we cannot halt all surrounding development or allow a series of strip shopping centers to surround it, like South Square had. The Crabtree Village incorporates people actually living there. If the old Steak & Ale land and that behind it can be developed into something where people would actually live, it is quite conceivable that the stretch from Soleil to the Beltline could all be an elevated, walkable dense focal point, and future rail transit stop.

The State really needs to rework that Glenwood/Beltline interchange. They got away with a cheapo fixo in the mid 80's. At some point they need to get traffic bypassing Crabtree without going through traffic lights.

[Jones_]

Great move by the council this area is for development not tree huggin. Most of the property is above the flood zone and the impact to the flooding will be minimum. I agree with some of the other developments not in the best interest of the area but this plot of land is great for the development.

Just to clarify, whatever easy to grasp keywords the newspaper wants to latch onto, flooding is less of a concern than turbid runoff from this site. Kidds Hill also likely has significant archaelogical finds sitting above the alluvial confluence of House and Crabtree creeks....from what I have seen of previous finds, I think its a candidate for Clovis artifiacts (10,000 year old points), and certainly the remains of support buildings from Edwards Mill would have been located up there (Edwards Mill sat at the original confluence of the creeks...House was relocated north a few dozen feet in the 90's). But since few give a flip about history the view from up there is simply awesome....I bet a million dollar condo would sell quicker there than atop Soleil.

[thewhister]

Yeah. I agree that this is good. In yesteryear the council would have rejected this and approved 18 L-shaped strip shopping centers at arterial corners. They would have only approved a development at this site that faces uphill and turns its back on Crabtree, destroying any sense of a walkable high density node in town. Truth is, the land actually ascends toward the creek, then has a treacherous cliff down to creek level. For anything substantial to be built there without major grade changes they would have to erect a series of terraced blank retaining walls with many many stairs. The office building at Lake Boone and Wycliff comes to mind. They have that treacherous metal stairway that is so cold and uninviting. Thank goodness some developments that are unique are being proposed now.

For Crabtree to truly be "fixed", we cannot halt all surrounding development or allow a series of strip shopping centers to surround it, like South Square had. The Crabtree Village incorporates people actually living there. If the old Steak & Ale land and that behind it can be developed into something where people would actually live, it is quite conceivable that the stretch from Soleil to the Beltline could all be an elevated, walkable dense focal point, and future rail transit stop.

The State really needs to rework that Glenwood/Beltline interchange. They got away with a cheapo fixo in the mid 80's. At some point they need to get traffic bypassing Crabtree without going through traffic lights.

I have to give it to the property owner and design team for the challenges that they faced with this project and to propose high-density mixed use development for this area. I had the chance to speak with most of the people invovled and if there was a way - they would have saved this hill. we forget that traffic management is a priority - the drives that service the development were recommended by both the State and City DOT, and let us not forget that we need to have proper grading for our BIG fire trucks to move up such a landform. Ah and the city requirements for parking, let us not forget that - hence the massive parking deck where the hill used to be. Least they are going for a parking reduction.

There probably could have been a better development out of this property if there was not a lot of "requirements" that are mandated. The city would need to evaluate these requirements and rewrite new ones to encourge this kind of development.

I don't know how the state can fix the Glenwood/Beltline interchange - the bottleneck seems to be at Leadmine and Creedmore - maybe build overpasses so cars can just zoom past Crabrtee and up the hill.

[Transplant]

I don't know how the state can fix the Glenwood/Beltline interchange - the bottleneck seems to be at Leadmine and Creedmore - maybe build overpasses so cars can just zoom past Crabrtee and up the hill.

At the very least, I feel that the city should shut down the traffic light that feeds into the Crabtree parking deck facing Glenwood Ave. This always clogs up and is unneccesary.

I'm sure there are as many opinions on this as there are people, but Creedmoor/Glenwood could use a seperated exchange. Not sure about Lead Mine/Glenwood.

I have no problem with building on Kidd's Hill. I have a problem with the shortsighted design. By shortsighted, I don't think this accounts for future development. I would have liked to see a road paralleling Crabtree Valley Ave and Glen Eden Dr. If not built, at least planned for. This would, hopefully, lead to continued dense development in this area.

Edited November 22, 2006 by Transplant

[ncwebguy]

This map shows the area in question, though it is hard to get a feel for the elevation changes. Also, all of Kidds Hill Plaza and the old Sheraton are long gone. Getting from the old Kidds Hill Pizza Hut to Soleil would be a stretch and take a lot of unlikely cooperation. Connecting Homewood Banks to Edwards Mill will take a lot of work because those "treehouse" apartments, Homewood Suites, and Tavola Rossa are in the way. Widening Crabtree Valley Mall would make the Edwards Mill approach even more steep than it already is.

They could put something on the footprint of the old Its Prime Only restaurant, its parking lot, and the long driveway without doing too much to the hill itself.

To see how to accomplish the plan's land use guideline of "high-intensity" development with little grading of the site, they only have to look on the east side of Blue Ridge. The hotel complex accomodates a lot of parking (more could have been added with a parking deck) and hotel rooms *without* razing the land.

An exlclusive, quality development including a four star hotel and million dollar condos would be an easy sell on top of a *hill*, as opposed to a parking structure at the Glenwood/Creedmoor intersection. With the numbers in the N&O Artcile, it looks like quantity (over 400k square feet in two phases) will trump quality here.

The lake south of Homewood Suites would be a nice area for high density, high end devlopment, though that property would cost a lot to acquire.

[ChiefJoJo]

The State really needs to rework that Glenwood/Beltline interchange. They got away with a cheapo fixo in the mid 80's. At some point they need to get traffic bypassing Crabtree without going through traffic lights.

I don't think there are any plans for that interchange. Money is VERY scarce, and it seems most of the big money in the area is going towards NEW freeways like 540 & US 64/264BYP and US 70BYP instead of fixing old freeways. We'll have to make due.

[DanRNC]

Does anyone have photos of this site? I haven't been to Crabtree in probably 3-4 years now.

Edited November 22, 2006 by DanRNC

[ChiefJoJo]

Here's the aerial.

[ChiefJoJo]

BTW, it is called Kidd's Hill. Here's Dana's coverage of the renderings of "Crabtree Village."

It is a shame that it more of the actual hill could not be preserved not unlike a terraced village in the Alps.

Edited December 21, 2006 by ChiefJoJo

[dmccall]

Here are some other tidbits from the flier:

* 24 acre site

* Madison Retail is doing the shops

* 2 restaurant pad sites

* two, 20,000 sq ft mini-anchor boxes

* 100,000 sq ft of prime retail space

* 350 apartments, 150 condos.

* 5-level parking deck with 1,700 spaces

2004 population

1 mile: 6,750

3 mile: 78,102

5 mile: 191,140

Avg HH Income 2004

1 mile: $93,701

3 mile: $80,791

5 mile: $72,092

Traffic Counts 2004

440 N of 70: 137K

440 S of 70: 116K

Blue Ridge S of 70: 19K

Blue Ridge N of 70: 26K

70 W of 440: 85K

70 E of 440: 33K

[urbanvb]

I like the quasi urban look of it but I wish it were more mixed use instead of just a little. It would be neat to have most of the housing located over the retail as to create more synergy.

[Transplant]

since the city is fine with this area being developed, I wish the city had pushed for a grid. 24 acres would have allowed for 4-6 city blocks.

one problem I have with this development and North Hills (both sides) is that they do not (or have not been forced to) allow seemless development on its periphery.

another problem is the retail and restaraunt pads, this is just a strip mall jammed into an apartment complex with a parking deck.

Why isn't the retail up on Crabtree Blvd?

The more I look at this, the less I like.

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

I saw somthing this morning in the Triangle Business Journal about this project being sold and back on track? Would anyone like to add anything? I have to run...Thank you!