Kidd's Hill/Crabtree area development

[Spatula]

Levelling Kidds Hill really pisses me off. It's the only thing in that area that isn't butt ugly. I try to just block north raleigh out of my mind. It's never going to have urban development that doesn't come off as a beige, sterile, new-urban gimmick.

[Transplant]

Levelling Kidds Hill really pisses me off. It's the only thing in that area that isn't butt ugly. I try to just block north raleigh out of my mind. It's never going to have urban development that doesn't come off as a beige, sterile, new-urban gimmick.

I have no problem with leveling Kidd Hill.

What do you, Spatula, want to see in N. Raleigh? If a highrise at crabtree isn't a place to start, lets hear some ideas.

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

According to TBJ, Crabtree Towne Center will instead be known as "Crabtree Creek"! I guess they prefer to sound more like the other developement, "Crabtree Village", located closer to Blue Ridge Rd?

[Spatula]

I have no problem with leveling Kidd Hill.

What do you, Spatula, want to see in N. Raleigh? If a highrise at crabtree isn't a place to start, lets hear some ideas.

The capital boulevard area could use some gentrification. If some roads were redirected, and a good chunk of the strip leading out from 440 were replaced with upscale developments, this would be a very solid midtown project.

Crabtree floods too much. There shouldn't be any commercial property relying on land in a floodplain. What would be the feasibility of sacrificing land to build a reservoir in the area? Yeah I know, another dumpy lake in North Raleigh, this could be constructed as more of a commercial corridor though. Something like the riverwalk in San Antonio, but a bit deeper.

[avery]

Not sure if this has been posted, but here is an image of the proposed development.

http://cll.bizjournals.com/story_image/85758-400-0.jpg?rev=2

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

More on Crabtree Village...

in TBJ:

The developers of the proposed Crabtree Village project on Kidd's Hill behind Crabtree Valley Mall are on target to close on the 24 acres of land in June or early July, and they're ready to flip a piece of it to Raleigh restaurateur Lou Moshakos.

Moshakos, founder of the Carolina Ale House chain, confirms he's in the process of selecting an architect for the project. It'll be a fresh seafood restaurant with a sushi bar on the rooftop and an open air patio. He hasn't yet picked a name. But he knows the cost of the project could top $5 million.

I'm not sure about the story listed here, but the picture is of Crabtree Creek,(formally Crabtree Town Center, located at the corner of Creedmore RD and Crabtree Valley Blvd.), and not Crabtree Village. Crabtree Village is bounded by Blue Ridge Road and Crabtree Valley Blvd. Confusing ain't it?

[orulz]

Not sure if this has been posted, but here is an image of the proposed development.

http://cll.bizjournals.com/story_image/85758-400-0.jpg?rev=2

And here it is, in full resolution, attached.

[Rufus]

Is there underground parking? Looking at the site plan shows the main entrance is from the parking deck at Crabtree, so this is probably on an podium or something, am I right?

[ChiefJoJo]

^I can only assume that the parking is structured or underground.

Wow, that's a lot more dense than I thought it would be... I count 10 stories on the residential portion--well, I assume that is residential over retail on the slope side... anyway, for the most part, it looks pretty walkable from that rendering--or as walkable as you can make that area. It's also good to have a movie theater in this area (there isn't one now). If that is really 10 stories of residential, I'm sure that bridge over Crabtree Creek will get at least 10 times more peds going over to the mall than it does now.

[ncwebguy]

It looks like there might be some "surface" parking, but the majority will be structured/underground, like the Target to JC Penny's part of North Hills. The rendering and the top down perspective show three deck entrances via Crabtree Valley Blvd -- near Creedmoor/Edwards Mill, near the mid-block crosswalk, and near the existing bridge to the mall.

That's a *lot* of dirt to move, but would be worth it since it lets them build up, and could raise the whole thing a little above the floodplain. Plus it has the "main" entrance on Edwards Mill which will be high and dry, at least until global warming kicks into overdrive. There will be a "street" on top, but most of the parking will be below, in what is the embankment now.

This could be more of a signature project than Soleil, with a good mix of restaurants, shops, theater, gathering spaces, and residences. Part of the "tower" on the higher side could be an upscale hotel too. Similar plans have been on the drawing board for years, but for one reason or another, the land looks worse than the crumbling parking lot, etc.

The bridge dumps pedestrains off at the Hudson Belk men's store, but they still have to walk a little to get to an actual entrance. If this land was developed in partnership with CVM, the L&T space could have been reconfigured to be a connection to this project, not just something that happens to be next to it.

[dmccall]

That looks like a whole lot more units than are at Soleil. Thank goodness they didn't stack those same blocks upward or the lynch mobs would be out in full force.

Seriously it looks like a very nice project. Maybe they should haul that dirt across the street so Soleil can sit higher. ha ha.

[Subway Scoundrel]

I think this makes Soleil even more viable. Short walk although I think big crosswalk would be needed.

[DPK]

This picture hurts my eyes, soooo bright, going blind.

[Jones_]

Not sure if this has been posted, but here is an image of the proposed development.

http://cll.bizjournals.com/story_image/85758-400-0.jpg?rev=2

Is that Crabtree Valley forking to the left and Edwards forking to the right?

[orulz]

Is that Crabtree Valley forking to the left and Edwards forking to the right?

Yes, though at that point I believe it's still called Creedmoor. It doesn't change to Edwards Mill until you get to the entrance to Glen Lake (where Edwards Mill road branched off until about 3 or 4 years ago.)

While I think things should be changed so the transition from Creedmoor to Edwards Mill happens at Glenwood, right now that's not the case.

[dmccall]

Is that Crabtree Valley forking to the left and Edwards forking to the right?

Yes. This looks like a view from about the 20th floor of the Soleil Center, looking South.

[Jones_]

Oh that is an image of "Crabtree Creek" on the site of the old Brendles.....I thought that was what was going in on Kidds Hill....pardon my confusion.....the thread is Kidds Hill and the discussion has been bouncing around between the two projects.

[ncwebguy]

As opposed to Soleil, residents here can walk to a lot more than Celerbrity Chef Restaurant, Sky Bar, and Athletic Apparel Branded Workout Center, reducing vehicle usage. Also, there are multiple entry/exit points to Creedmoor, old Edwards Mill, and Crabtree Valley Blvd. It is hard to tell how it will address the Crabtree Valley Blvd. corner, but it looks like it could be steps or ramps. By not going taller, they don't have to worry about engineering, construction, wind tests, etc. for ego-stroking form over function.

If they work something out with the mall and other neighbors, they could excavate the dirt to build a berm on the north side of Crabtree Creek, at least to the bridge between the mall and the blvd, if not to Just Tires. This would raise how far the creek would have to crest to flood the lowest points in the valley, and If it is economically feasable, like someone else mentioned earlier, they should also dredge the creek through that stretch. The silt deposited there has made it so less rain is necessary to "flood" the area.

The greenway trail added some volume for water to occupy, but it wasn't enough to contain Alberto.

The Edwards Mill/Creedmoor change should occur at Glenwood, like Lead Mine/Blue Ridge does now.

[ChiefJoJo]

Oh that is an image of "Crabtree Creek" on the site of the old Brendles.....I thought that was what was going in on Kidds Hill....pardon my confusion.....the thread is Kidds Hill and the discussion has been bouncing around between the two projects.

I know it may be confusing, but I combined them into one topic for simplicity sake and because they are in the same general vicinity on or near Kidds Hill, but yes they are two separate projects. That's why I labeled it Kidds Hill *AREA* projects.

I think there are two Kidds Hill projects:

1) Where Steak & Ale was - all the way to the Crabtree parking deck bridge is one project. This property used to be called "Kidds Hill Plaza" and had Brendle's, Food Lion, Steak & Ale, and others but is planned to be called "Galleria"? It was supposed to have creek-level parking decks with Steak&Ale level retail with condos on top. Then the underground parking was taken out about a year ago. Ever since Glen-Tree got the go-ahead the condo demand in that area has vastly changed.

2) Kidd Brewer's old house (where the Crossroads Restaurant/It's Prime Only was on top of this hill). This is the project referred to in the paper, based on their map.

The old Galleria project is now called "Crabtree Creek" and the development on Kidd Brewer's old home and property is now called Crabtree Village.

"Crabtree Creek" (formerly "Galleria" then "Crabtree Towne Center" project):

"Crabtree Village" (at Kidd Brewer's house):

[Jones_]

The Edwards Mill/Creedmoor change should occur at Glenwood, like Lead Mine/Blue Ridge does now.

Original Edwards Mill existed before Creedmoor Rd did in this area. What is now Millbrook Rd at Creedmoor was Leesville road at one time and had US 70 labeled on it in the 1920's until the early 1950's when current Glenwood/70 was concreted through. Creedmoor looks to have dropped down to Glenwood/70 around this time as (I still remember) a two lane road and designated as NC 50. Much later (not sure but maybe with the 1973 mall construction), Creedmoor was "extended" accross Glenwood and the Creek and up to Edwards Mill Road. I believe City Engineers refer to this short stretch as the Creedmoor Connector. Good ol' Raleigh and its twisted, realigned, connected and bass-ackward named road system....

[JeffC]

Original Edwards Mill existed before Creedmoor Rd did in this area. What is now Millbrook Rd at Creedmoor was Leesville road at one time and had US 70 labeled on it in the 1920's until the early 1950's when current Glenwood/70 was concreted through. Creedmoor looks to have dropped down to Glenwood/70 around this time as (I still remember) a two lane road and designated as NC 50. Much later (not sure but maybe with the 1973 mall construction), Creedmoor was "extended" accross Glenwood and the Creek and up to Edwards Mill Road. I believe City Engineers refer to this short stretch as the Creedmoor Connector. Good ol' Raleigh and its twisted, realigned, connected and bass-ackward named road system....

2 questions:

(1) so where was Edward's Mill (the mill itself)? was it on Crabtree creek close to where the mall is now?

(2) if old Leesville Road was originally 70, it went up the current Lead Mine to "Town and Country" to what is now Millbrook, and then picking up its original route at the signal on Millbrook between Creedmoor and Pleasant Valley Road...but how did that road lead to Durham? Did it originally come back to the current 70 further west? Where?

*EDIT* answered my own question....Leesville ends at 70 way out past TW Alexander (in fact on the internet maps, that stretch is still called "New Durham Highway"...the old route was Angier Avenue, which veers away from "new" 70 just past Leesville...boy, what a meandering route to Durham that was...obviously a pre-automobile route which I bet follows some terrain feature (ridge, stream valley, etc.)

Edited June 12, 2007 by JeffC

[vitaviatic]

Holy crap! I used to walk and bike through that area on my way to Crabtree. I knew about Soleil, but this kicks Crabtree into a whole different level (probably saving that old mall from its demise). Serious business on that hill, huh?!

I remember all of the old estates that used to line Blue Ridge Road (my folks used to call it "Blue Cross Road" for all the doctors there I suppose). Assuming in the course of things that the high buyout prices of those blueblooded properties dictated above average densities, i.e. townhomes, you may, over five or ten years, have the makings of a "Midtown"-style streetcar that can eventually connect with RBC and down to TTA at Fairgrounds or West Raleigh, provided enough room is left to terrace the grades there. I haven't seen Edwards Mill in years, but I would imagine that there is enough room somewhere for a streetcar easement between there and Blue Ridge.

I liked Kidd's Hill, too. (I slid a car off that hill on the meandering curve at EdMill in the snow when I was 17 -- almost landed on the Hudson Belk roof -- but other than that...) While not expecting a re-creation of Telegraph Hill, as long as the quality of the development is high and respects the terrain, I could live with it. You can do some interesting things with hills given a creative architect or two. Who knows? You might actually end up with a postcard cityscape out of it. Nighttime urban overlooks are fascinating, and command high prices, which will in turn beget even more pressure for density, and maybe more interesting projects over on the Lead Mine/North Hills side (that area is entering the "teardown" stage, too.)

Anyway, from what I've seen of the renderings, both the "Crabtree Creek" and "Crabtree Village" projects look like positives to me. The most important thing, IMHO, is that it keeps adding enough value to Crabtree Valley itself that the economic interest remains there to keep upgrading it, instead of letting it succomb to the likes of Triangle Town Center and Southpoint, as has happened to other once-great, once-large malls around the country. This particular mall, at least, won't become a WalMart.

The ball was really dropped years ago when those motels took up the hill aside the Beltline (on the Arrow Dr. side of Blue Ridge). As profitable as they may be, that's not really the kind of thing they give out city planning kudos for. But alas, those structures are so new that it may take years for the replacement cycle to catch up over there.

[Jones_]

2 questions:

(1) so where was Edward's Mill (the mill itself)? was it on Crabtree creek close to where the mall is now?

(2) if old Leesville Road was originally 70, it went up the current Lead Mine to "Town and Country" to what is now Millbrook, and then picking up its original route at the signal on Millbrook between Creedmoor and Pleasant Valley Road...but how did that road lead to Durham? Did it originally come back to the current 70 further west? Where?

*EDIT* answered my own question....Leesville ends at 70 way out past TW Alexander (in fact on the internet maps, that stretch is still called "New Durham Highway"...the old route was Angier Avenue, which veers away from "new" 70 just past Leesville...boy, what a meandering route to Durham that was...obviously a pre-automobile route which I bet follows some terrain feature (ridge, stream valley, etc.)

Crabtree Creek was straightened when the mall was put in. I know of at least three mills that have been on this stretch of the creek and only approximate dates for them all. Homewood Banks and the current squiggle of Edwards mill by Tavola Rossa are the old mill road itself and the mill sat beside Crabtree Creek at that point. because there were some remains still there until the mall went in, I am guessing it was the last mill operated here. Also in the 1840's and 1850's a mill was operated (based on a description in a book) "at a bend in Crabtree Creek where the mall currently sits" by the Wake County Homeless settlement (not sure its exact name or title) The site of this village is still clear but I have not been able to locate a referenced cemetery off Northbrook Dr behind Brooks Elementary School. I get the impression it was accross the creek and farther upstream from Edwards Mill but could have been the same site. Also small mill operated where House Creek (before being realigned) enters Crabtree Creek. The dam was on House and I think was a for part of its existance a powder mill during the civil war but I need to check my source.

As best as I can tell old 70 was Angier/Leesville/Millbrook/Town and Country/Lead Mine....and then I lose it. I have map from the 1870's that shows roads that must have cut through Carolina Country Club and through Hayes Barton....extrapolating forward to the 1920's is hard because physical traces are mostly gone, although under the Glenwood/Crabtree Creek bridge there is a somewhat modern looking bridge footing for what must have been the either the old Ridge/Lead Mine or Blue Ridge/Leadmine alignment. It is a good 6 feet below the current bridge. Also third had info tells me there is an old road bed in the woods behind an estate off Jarvis Street In Hayes Barton which could have played into it somehow....i

[DanRNC]

Here's the TBJ article on the "Crabtree Creek"project.

I see the battle between this and North Hills heating up.

Edited June 13, 2007 by DanRNC

[RALNATIVE]

Weingarten will change the name of the project to Crabtree Towne Center, said Rob Hicks, the company's director in the Mid-Atlantic region. New plans call for 256,000 square feet of retail and restaurant space. There will be about 450 apartments and condos. It also plans about 150,000 square feet of offices.

I'm just overjoyed that the project will now be called Crabtree Creek instead of Crabtree Towne Center.