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Kidd's Hill/Crabtree area development

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Designs show a cluster of eight multi-level buildings atop two- and three-level parking decks, plus two restaurant outparcels in the center "town park." The tallest buildings on the south side of the property could reach 130 feet above ground level, or as high as 10 stories, according to the design. The project will have about 2,500 parking spaces.

Hicks says the developers will remove more than 500,000 cubic yards of dirt to bring the land's grade level down 32 feet to be even with Crabtree Valley Avenue, then replace the dirt with a structural podium for the parking deck. Atop the parking deck will be a pedestrian plaza with shops and restaurants. The 150,000 square feet of office space and the apartment units will be atop the retail space in five buildings.

This will be truly mixed-use with office, residential and retail that may even rival exiting North Hills in terms of density. Notice that they aren't asking for a TIF for their parking either!

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Designs show a cluster of eight multi-level buildings atop two- and three-level parking decks, plus two restaurant outparcels in the center "town park." The tallest buildings on the south side of the property could reach 130 feet above ground level, or as high as 10 stories, according to the design. The project will have about 2,500 parking spaces.

Hicks says the developers will remove more than 500,000 cubic yards of dirt to bring the land's grade level down 32 feet to be even with Crabtree Valley Avenue, then replace the dirt with a structural podium for the parking deck. Atop the parking deck will be a pedestrian plaza with shops and restaurants. The 150,000 square feet of office space and the apartment units will be atop the retail space in five buildings.

This will be truly mixed-use with office, residential and retail that may even rival exiting North Hills in terms of density. Notice that they aren't asking for a TIF for their parking either!

But Mundra is asking for something...

"It's very urban. They've done a wonderful job for the difficult site they have," Mundra says. "Once it's completed, I wish the city would find the money to build a walkway connection between our project and the mall. That will promote walking between our projects, which will cut down on traffic."

I guess there won't be enough profits from all these luxury apartments and condos for these two developers to build their own walkway. Also I suppose taking the elevator to ground level and simply crossing the street is simply out of the question.

500k yd3 of dirt ain't a small hill....more than Crabtree Village plans to remove I would guess. Holding back that erosion won't be easy, even if its performed and taken seriously. I am interested but not optimistic because of this.

Edited by Jones133

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But Mundra is asking for something...

"It's very urban. They've done a wonderful job for the difficult site they have," Mundra says. "Once it's completed, I wish the city would find the money to build a walkway connection between our project and the mall. That will promote walking between our projects, which will cut down on traffic."

I guess there won't be enough profits from all these luxury apartments and condos for these two developers to build their own walkway. Also I suppose taking the elevator to ground level and simply crossing the street is simply out of the question.

500k yd3 of dirt ain't a small hill....more than Crabtree Village plans to remove I would guess. Holding back that erosion won't be easy, even if its performed and taken seriously. I am interested but not optimistic because of this.

The fact that he's asking for a walkway is a good sign and indicates that this project is moving forward.

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No new news. Just a quick thought.

This development reminded me of a place in No Virginia, but I couldn't remember the name until I went back there this weekend. Shirlington. Check it out. Something like this would be terrific for the Crabtree Creek development.

http://www.villageatshirlington.com/

Edited by plus2

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In light of the less developer friendly City Council we just elected, I'm guessing the more controversial aspects of this project (like the massive regrading of Kidds Hill) are unlikely to win approval...

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Crabtree Creek (former Brendles, Steak and Ale, Pizza Hut, Kidds Hill Plaza, etc.) does have some environmental impact, but seems to employ enough "smart growth" elements to be approved by the new council, assuming the developer doesn't ask for a TIF.

Crabtree Village (Kidd Brewer's house, It's Prime Only) might not if it had to be approved today, but (as mentioned earlier in this thread) it was approved by the current Council in late November 2006. It seems that once approval is granted, it can be implemented at any time.

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Crabtree Creek (former Brendles, Steak and Ale, Pizza Hut, Kidds Hill Plaza, etc.) does have some environmental impact, but seems to employ enough "smart growth" elements to be approved by the new council, assuming the developer doesn't ask for a TIF.

Crabtree Village (Kidd Brewer's house, It's Prime Only) might not if it had to be approved today, but (as mentioned earlier in this thread) it was approved by the current Council in late November 2006. It seems that once approval is granted, it can be implemented at any time.

Is that correct? Usually these approvals have a time window and then they expire if you don't seek to renew it. Otherwise, a developer could sit on something for like 5 years, during which time the surrounding neighbors (and thus the scale of impact) may have changed...

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I don't know if project approvals have an expiration date, but it feels like such a date is pushed out several years or does not exist. See Centennial Campus, the Boyland Heights condo project near the McDonalds and Paramount, the ongoing Renyolds' Hillsborough development, Site 1, the 540/401 project, Soleil's office component, the two Kidd's Hill devlopments, etc.

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Not really new info, but a new (to me) rendering of "Crabtree Place," formerly "Crabtree Town Center," formerly "Crabtree Creek" (name shown on site plan), formerly "The Galleria" by a different developer:

crabtree%20rendering%20web--JPG%20(375x375).jpg

The mall is "off the page" to the left, then the creek itself, then Crabtree Avenue next to it, then the development. Creedmor Rd Ext/Edwards Mill Rd is in the right foreground (not shown very clearly). The site plan is linked in this post. Most of the mid-rise portion is residential, some office to the creek side, and ground-level retail all around, and a cineplex in the back.

This is not to be confused with "Crabtree Village"--a different mixed-use project (also discussed in this topic--both in fairly close proximity behind the mall)... the one that was controversial because it will shave off like 30-40 ft off the top of Kidds Hill. The renderings for Crabtree Village can be found in this post.

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talk about beige. Hopefully that will change when the final designs are presented. The residential building looks a little too beachy as well. Also, the round building on the corner was not in the first design, but I kind of like it. I think it will make a more dramatic entrance to the area. If they are going for urban, density is good; diversification, we'll see; but the color and residential design are negatives to the project.

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Looks like Crabtree Place is stalled and will be redesigned yet again. Reminder that this is the former Galleria project going back quite a few years. I don't recall the details, but the developer backed out and sold to Weingarten, who sought to develop Crabtree Place. Out of the major projects at Crabtree, including Soleil, Crabtree Village (scalping up of Kidds Hill), I thought Crabtree Place was by far the most promising. Maybe they will rework the site (more apartments?), but generally keep the same layout.

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Maybe they will rework the site (more apartments?), but generally keep the same layout.

I think that's what will happen. I'm generally encouraged that this will come together. I wonder what Lou Moshakos knows about all of this (he is slated for a signature restaurant there).

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Apartments would be my guess as well. The apartment market is really strong right now and continues to grow, so it would be wise to add more apartments. Another thing about apartments is that once the market starts demanding more condos again, they can always convert the apartments to condos.

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If you recall, this is the tract that proposed leveling a large portion of Kidds Hill to make way for the development. Good riddance, as far as I'm concerned. Crabtree Place, on the other hand, I would like to see built as currently designed.

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When a balloon bursts, the shards of latex fall everywhere. Crabtree is getting more than its fair share.

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According to an article I found on Pappas, they are expanding into the Raleigh market to take advantage of the booming apartment industry here. Interestingly, this article say:

he company is currently negotiating to buy land to use for such a project in Raleigh

I'm thinking that maybe that is a reference to Kidd's Hill.

http://www.charlotte...l#disqus_thread

Edited by Gard

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Quoted highlights of the article courtesy of the Triangle Business Journal:

"The Pappas version of Crabtree Village isn't as dense as the previously approved plan and saves more trees..."

"The proposed Pappas plan could allow up to 525 apartment and condo units, a 200-room hotel, up to 250,000 square feet of office space and up to 60,000 square feet of retail space."

"Pappas says the group is focused first on building the 315 apartment units in six buildings, an investment valued at more than $40 million. Later, they could add more residential units, the hotel and the commercial and retail buildings."

"Both the new and old master plans would allow one of the Crabtree Village buildings to be constructed as a mixed-use tower as tall as 200 feet..."

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