Van Andel Arena Expansion?

[wingbert]

OK, the article first has this:

"A parking deck south of the arena would rule out future expansion of the arena’s bowl and freeze the arena’s seating capacity at its current level of 10,800, Heacock said.

'The only time the full circle makes sense is for sports teams and it would never be big enough to give us the next level sports team in the NHL or the NBA,” he said. That would require a new arena.'"

 

Then it says this:

"Consultants shows a four-story deck that would keep the rear of the current arena open as a loading area for tour buses, trucks and haulers that set up events ranging from circuses to rock concerts and dirt for motor sports events."

 

 

Which is odd, because besides the "NHL or the NBA," it seems that circuses, motor sports events and even many concerts would be exactly the sorts of things that would sell more tickets if they were available via an expansion of the bowl.  Oh well...

Edited December 8, 2014 by wingbert

[ironyisadeadscene]

OK, the article first has this:

"A parking deck south of the arena would rule out future expansion of the arena’s bowl and freeze the arena’s seating capacity at its current level of 10,800, Heacock said.

'The only time the full circle makes sense is for sports teams and it would never be big enough to give us the next level sports team in the NHL or the NBA,” he said. That would require a new arena.'"

 

Then it says this:

"Consultants shows a four-story deck that would keep the rear of the current arena open as a loading area for tour buses, trucks and haulers that set up events ranging from circuses to rock concerts and dirt for motor sports events."

 

 

Which is odd, because besides the "NHL or the NBA," it seems that circuses, motor sports events and even many concerts would be exactly the sorts of things that would sell more tickets if they were available via an expansion of the bowl.  Oh well...

 

most concerts are an end stage event, so any seating built to finish out the arena wouldnt be usable anyways. and circuses and motorsport events dont always sell out anyways.

[GR8scott]

I see how finishing the bowl might not make sense if the seats do not fill but I would think a partial finish (maybe the lower bowl, incorporated with parking ramp would add a couple thousand seats (12000 seat range) and not appear so temporary as well as attract larger events like the NCAA tournament which bypasses GR for similar sized markets like Dayton, Greensboro, Boise to name a few with larger and nicer arenas. Look at Tulsas arena, almost twice as big

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BOK_Center

[ironyisadeadscene]

I see how finishing the bowl might not make sense if the seats do not fill but I would think a partial finish (maybe the lower bowl, incorporated with parking ramp would add a couple thousand seats (12000 seat range) and not appear so temporary as well as attract larger events like the NCAA tournament which bypasses GR for similar sized markets like Dayton, Greensboro, Boise to name a few with larger and nicer arenas. Look at Tulsas arena, almost twice as big

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BOK_Center

I dont think you are going to see the NCAA tourny in Grand Rapids. I believe you need a D-1 host, and the nearest is WMU. Heck, they dont even play at the Palace often, every few years. 

 

At this point in the VAA's lifespan, a bigger arena means a new arena. Arenas and stadiums the same age as Van Andel are being replaced. Its just the way she goes with sports.

 

Not that the VAA isn't a nice facility. It is. But it isn't going to get any larger.

[RegalTDP]

I dont think you are going to see the NCAA tourny in Grand Rapids. I believe you need a D-1 host, and the nearest is WMU. Heck, they dont even play at the Palace often, every few years. 

 

MSU was the D-1 host last time GR put in a serious bid. I think it was 2011.

[wingbert]

Well, the thing is, what's the point of this parking deck, etc. investment?  If the arena is too old to warrant an investment in expansion of the bowl, why is it worth putting on this big addition of parking, retail and maybe more?  And in the future, who's going to pay for a larger arena for the area and where are you going to put it?  As soon as someone brings up a larger arena the naysayers are going to be out in droves asking why the current arena wasn't just expanded at the time they did this big construction project and what's going to happen to all the investment that took place in the area of the arena if it is obsoleted?  I'm sure that in the mind of the powers-that-be there are practical reasons for structuring things this way.  I'm just an observer playing devils advocate.

 

It sort of has the feel of being told your car needs a new exhaust system so you opt to spend your money on a louder stereo.

[egrguy]

The thing is, with only minor league teams, is there ever a need for a larger stadium? Plus, to get to 18,000-22,000 for the NHL or NBA, the footprint would be larger and not sure if you could tear down the existing VAA and put it on the same footprint.

 

If we ever get a pro team, you could build it south on Division and use the Silverline to bring people into games. I think the parking in general is more of the area south of the VAA as well vs just on game nights.

[ironyisadeadscene]

MSU was the D-1 host last time GR put in a serious bid. I think it was 2011.

 

They do bids from that far away from home? At that point, wouldn't you bid to put it at the Palace?

[ironyisadeadscene]

Well, the thing is, what's the point of this parking deck, etc. investment?  If the arena is too old to warrant an investment in expansion of the bowl, why is it worth putting on this big addition of parking, retail and maybe more?  And in the future, who's going to pay for a larger arena for the area and where are you going to put it?  As soon as someone brings up a larger arena the naysayers are going to be out in droves asking why the current arena wasn't just expanded at the time they did this big construction project and what's going to happen to all the investment that took place in the area of the arena if it is obsoleted?  I'm sure that in the mind of the powers-that-be there are practical reasons for structuring things this way.  I'm just an observer playing devils advocate.

 

It sort of has the feel of being told your car needs a new exhaust system so you opt to spend your money on a louder stereo.

Isn't the garage simply to replace the potential loss of parking if the lots to the south ever get developed?

[RegalTDP]

They do bids from that far away from home? At that point, wouldn't you bid to put it at the Palace?

 

The West Michigan Sports Commission spearheaded the GR bid.  It probably wasn't hard for Pete Secchia to bring his alma mater on board.

[WMrapids]

On 10/7/2006 at 12:29 AM, GRDadof3 said:

Perhaps you missed this quote from the article:

 

The facility was designed with expansion in mind. Its south wall could be removed to allow for about 3,500 additional seats, completing the arena's interior seating bowl. MacKeigan and most people close to the facility say that expansion, which would cost $20 million to $50 million, probably will never happen, since the extra seats would very rarely get filled.

Should the community ever grow large enough to support a major-league hockey or basketball franchise -- prospects MacKeigan said might take 15 to 20 years -- "the economic realities of such a franchise would mandate a brand-new venue."

After seeing that the arena is 23 years old now, I came to find this. Seeing that they abandoned the idea to add the parking structure on the south portion, do you think they are going to slow investments into the arena? Will we see a new arena instead? How large would GR have to be to support a major team?

[GRLaker]

8 minutes ago, WMrapids said:

After seeing that the arena is 23 years old now, I came to find this. Seeing that they abandoned the idea to add the parking structure on the south portion, do you think they are going to slow investments into the arena? Will we see a new arena instead? How large would GR have to be to support a major team?

Is 23 years old really that old? Aside from the cheesy 90s sign outside, the place still looks brand new. 

Also, what size does a city have to be to support a pro team? With a metro area of 1.1 million, I would think we could support one just as easily as any of the other mid-size cities that have upper tier sports teams. I think hockey would be the sure bet over basketball. Hockey is extremely popular throughout Michigan and the leadership of the Red Wings has been making enemies of fans as of late. Seems like I remember at one time someone wanted to potentially bring the Penguins to Grand Rapids. I was a teen when I read that somewhere though, so maybe my memory is foggy.

Also, if an update were done or a new arena were to be built, maybe they could partner with GVSU to be the host of its basketball programs. The GVSU Fieldhouse is a dumpster fire. It looks like an oversized 1960s high school gymnasium with major excess room behind each end of the floor. Such a move might be a needed step toward finally moving up.

[kwl]

17 minutes ago, WMrapids said:

After seeing that the arena is 23 years old now, I came to find this. Seeing that they abandoned the idea to add the parking structure on the south portion, do you think they are going to slow investments into the arena? Will we see a new arena instead? How large would GR have to be to support a major team?

It would be hard to view us getting a major sports team. 

Salt Lake City has a basketball team and they're about 20% larger than we are (1MM metro area vs. 1.2MM metro area). Their urban area is about 80-90% of their metro area while we are only about 60% urban. Buffalo has a football team and is very similar to SLC vs. GR. Similar populations, but significantly more urban. 

Additionally, I don't see us getting a pro sports team as the media market isn't big enough to compete with Detroit teams. That being said, we have the wealth here (obviously) to support one. 

[RegalTDP]

I think MLS would be great for GR - it wouldn't have to compete with any Detroit teams and could take the helm as Michigan's MLS club.

Though I know Detroit is actively trying to get an MLS club.  As are many, many other cities.

[BLUESCRUBS]

 

 

Amazing watching the transformation of Downtown over the years.

[ironyisadeadscene]

10 hours ago, kwl said:

It would be hard to view us getting a major sports team. 

Salt Lake City has a basketball team and they're about 20% larger than we are (1MM metro area vs. 1.2MM metro area). Their urban area is about 80-90% of their metro area while we are only about 60% urban. Buffalo has a football team and is very similar to SLC vs. GR. Similar populations, but significantly more urban. 

Additionally, I don't see us getting a pro sports team as the media market isn't big enough to compete with Detroit teams. That being said, we have the wealth here (obviously) to support one. 

Buffalo also has an NHL team and a NLL team that sells well in a 19,000 seat arena. And a AAA baseball team.

[GRDadof3]

2 hours ago, BLUESCRUBS said:

 

 

Amazing watching the transformation of Downtown over the years.

Wow, incredible. That video made me choked up a bit. I got the opportunity to take a hard-hat tour with AIA-Grand Valley while the VAA was under construction, and then we got tickets through my wife's work to the very first Griffins game. It was such an incredible time to be in GR. Explosive changes. 

[GRLaker]

Buffalo has a population of 258,000 and an MSA population of 1.2 million. They're also continuing to shrink after six decades of losing population after it peaked in 1950 at 580,000. I would think those programs are prime for stealing to bring to a growing city. Also, Grand Rapids is prime to gain a loyal fan base for whatever sport it brings in since all Detroit teams are in free fall.

 

[GRLaker]

19 hours ago, RegalTDP said:

I think MLS would be great for GR - it wouldn't have to compete with any Detroit teams and could take the helm as Michigan's MLS club.

Though I know Detroit is actively trying to get an MLS club.  As are many, many other cities.

Dan Gilbert's proposal will never be accepted as long as he holds on to the idea of putting a retractable roof on Ford Field and having that serve as the soccer stadium. With MLS expanding, Grand Rapids could be a shoe-in if they had the financial backing from a local oligarch and support from the community to chip in to build a new stadium. It would be Michigan's first and likely only MLS team if it were to be accepted. Having been to many GRFC games, I have seen the support they get from the community for just a minor league club. It definitely rivals Detroit City FC - if not surpasses it.

[GRLaker]

13 hours ago, BLUESCRUBS said:

 

 

Amazing watching the transformation of Downtown over the years.

Wow...That video brought back some memories. My dad was the estimator that won this project for mechanical contracting and we got to go to the grand opening event for all of the companies involved in the building of it. They played this video and I was amazed I remember all of it considering I was in 4th or 5th grade at the time.

[BLUESCRUBS]

49 minutes ago, GRLaker said:

Wow...That video brought back some memories. My dad was the estimator that won this project for mechanical contracting and we got to go to the grand opening event for all of the companies involved in the building of it. They played this video and I was amazed I remember all of it considering I was in 4th or 5th grade at the time.

I remember going to the opening event. It was a figure skating event with Kirstie Yamaguchi I think. Though my Dad and I hoped they would have played a hockey game.

Crazy at looking at all the large parking lots and boarded up building around the arena at that time. Ionia and Commerce were ghost towns. Makes you wonder what the next 23 years have in store.

[kwl]

4 hours ago, GRLaker said:

Buffalo has a population of 258,000 and an MSA population of 1.2 million. They're also continuing to shrink after six decades of losing population after it peaked in 1950 at 580,000. I would think those programs are prime for stealing to bring to a growing city. Also, Grand Rapids is prime to gain a loyal fan base for whatever sport it brings in since all Detroit teams are in free fall.

 

I don't think population has as much to do with it as as media market size. Sure, Green Bay is an extreme outlier. But those programs (Buffalo included) have deep rooted history. To make the argument that pro teams should move their teams to a mid-sized, midwestern city is pretty hard when leagues are actively trying to increase their international exposure. Sure, that might come from expansion, but there are more viable cities in the US with larger media markets than Grand Rapids. 

That being said, we did make the list of top cities without a pro-sports team (last place): https://moving.selfstorage.com/largest-metro-areas-without-major-league-sports-teams/

I feel like Austin would be a much more viable choice when it came from the acquisition of any sports team. Seattle is a natural choice for basketball, St. Louis is a natural choice for football, etc. 

 

[egrguy]

MLS is already planning on moving out of one of their smaller markets (Columbus) and moving to Austin. As much as I love the idea of a major sports team here, I do not ever see it happening. Detroit and their 4M estimated metro population with 3 billionaire owners, will get that MLS team. No doubt about it/I'd bet a 6 pack of some Founders Mosaic promise on it. GR could host a AAA baseball team, but I've not ever really heard lots of rumors on that end.

[cutlervillegr]

10 hours ago, GRLaker said:

Buffalo has a population of 258,000 and an MSA population of 1.2 million. They're also continuing to shrink after six decades of losing population after it peaked in 1950 at 580,000. I would think those programs are prime for stealing to bring to a growing city. Also, Grand Rapids is prime to gain a loyal fan base for whatever sport it brings in since all Detroit teams are in free fall.

 

A couple thoughts on Buffalo, as a Buffalo sports fan and former WNYer.  Although Buffalo MSA is only 1.2 million, the Buffalo sports market extends 45 minutes east to Rochester (1.1 million), 45 minutes west into Canada (1.1 million), plus Toronto 1.5 hours away.  In fact, 45% of the stadium attendance at a Bills game is from Rochester or Canada.  What does this mean?  Buffalo is actually a regional team, with a population base of about 3.5 million.  

The problems for GR getting a major (NFL, MLB, NHL, NBA) sports team are:

-No large regional population base

-Not enough corporate sponsors (this is actually Buffalo's biggest problem, even with 3.5 million people to fill the stadiums/arenas).

-GR and West Michigan are much more of college sports fans (UM vs. MSU).  (At least based on living in Western New York and Western Michigan).

-No sports history to support a team (think smaller Rust Belt teams like Green Bay, Buffalo, Cleveland).

 

A couple of thoughts: I go to 1-2 Griffins games a year.  Usually on Friday.  The arena is usually 2/3 full at best.  In order for GR to support expanding Van Andel, or even considering getting a major team, they need to fill Van Andel all the time.  Look at Winnipeg, when they got the Jets back a few years ago.

I think getting a AAA baseball team would be a good step for GR.  GR is too small to have "only" A baseball.

[GR8scott]

2 hours ago, cutlervillegr said:

A couple thoughts on Buffalo, as a Buffalo sports fan and former WNYer.  Although Buffalo MSA is only 1.2 million, the Buffalo sports market extends 45 minutes east to Rochester (1.1 million), 45 minutes west into Canada (1.1 million), plus Toronto 1.5 hours away.  In fact, 45% of the stadium attendance at a Bills game is from Rochester or Canada.  What does this mean?  Buffalo is actually a regional team, with a population base of about 3.5 million.  

The problems for GR getting a major (NFL, MLB, NHL, NBA) sports team are:

-No large regional population base

-Not enough corporate sponsors (this is actually Buffalo's biggest problem, even with 3.5 million people to fill the stadiums/arenas).

-GR and West Michigan are much more of college sports fans (UM vs. MSU).  (At least based on living in Western New York and Western Michigan).

-No sports history to support a team (think smaller Rust Belt teams like Green Bay, Buffalo, Cleveland).

 

A couple of thoughts: I go to 1-2 Griffins games a year.  Usually on Friday.  The arena is usually 2/3 full at best.  In order for GR to support expanding Van Andel, or even considering getting a major team, they need to fill Van Andel all the time.  Look at Winnipeg, when they got the Jets back a few years ago.

I think getting a AAA baseball team would be a good step for GR.  GR is too small to have "only" A baseball.

            AAA baseball would be a good next step but unlikely due to geography. They would also be nice to get an arena football team back and division one sports at Grandvalley. Before there’s even talk of pro sports the arena would have to be expanded or rebuilt, there are plenty of other similar size cities that have bigger and organize her arenas like Greensboro, Des Moines, Omaha, Little Rock, Birmingham, Not to mention college towns like Lincoln and Madison just to name a fewNot to mention college towns like Lincoln and Madison just to name a few